Hickey might have fired his AR15 -- members survey.

[Michael Griffith]

On 9/25/2023 at 6:24 PM, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

 

No SSA etc ever revealed that Hickey fired. One SSA said that the AR15 had not been fired (Floyd Boring). 

But we're not just talking about the other agents in the follow-up car. Kenny O'Donnell and Dave Powers were in that car. When O'Donnell revealed to Tip O'Neill that he had lied during his WC testimony and that he was certain some shots came from the grassy knoll, one would think that he would have also mentioned that one of the agents in the car fired his rifle if Hickey had in fact fired his rifle.

I have fired the AR-15 rifle many times. It is quite loud. When I fired the rifle in the Army, we were required to use ear plugs to protect our hearing. 

I cant  remember the details of Holland's ricochet theory, except that it was mostly silly, except that he was the first to realize that shot-1 had ricocheted offa the signal arm, at pseudo Z103 i think he said (i dont think he said Z132).

He says the first shot was fired during the 3-4-second gap between Z132 and Z133, or about 11.2-15.2 seconds before Z313. He puts the shooting time at 11.2 seconds, which means he's assuming the shot came a frame or two before Z133.

Also, we should keep in mind that even in this lone-gunman scenario, the gunman still would have had to go two for two in 5.6 seconds, something that not even the Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test were able to do.

Firing when the 2" signal arm was possibly in the way was certainly silly, especially the two 3/4" guy rods & coupler (shot-1 hit a guyrod), especially the red yellow green signals & backboard. In 2013 Christopher who owns the original RYG signals & backboard confirmed that there is no bullet damage.

Well, yeah, if Oswald was half the rifleman that the WC claimed he was, he would not have fired with a metal pole intervening near JFK's upper body in his sight view, not to mention that the angle would have been virtually straight down. Even a gunman with minimal experience would not have fired at that time.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

8 hours ago, Norman T. Field said:

Perhaps you could just stop wasting our time with this disproven theory that does not align with other known facts?

Before i discovered the truth about Hickey i redd every thread on this forum (but not necessarily every comment), it took a long long time. I woz impressed with the intelligence of many commentors. And then i amazed myself when i made my discovery (albeit it woz only a slight upgrade on the truth discovered by Holland Donahue Menninger & McLaren).

And even now i hang around koz occasionally i find an amazing comment that makes it worthwhile........

....... For example, one member found that the Z footage showed a large piece of skull spinning in midair for a few frames, before landing inside the JFK limo (where it woz later found). 

...... For example one member found Connally's lapel eversion at Z224.

..... For example Brown said that the parade stopped for 30 sec on the on-ramp.

....... For example Hoffman confirmed Brown.

If u care to look, i have disproved the disproofs.

Re aligning with other known facts, it is difficult to tell the difference tween facts & factoids.

Testimonies & witnesses often contradict. In some cases they contradict themselves.

But i found it easy, i guess that i have a good BS meter.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Michael Griffith]

13 hours ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

...... For example one member found Connally's lapel eversion at Z224.

The Z224 lapel flip is probably an optical illusion. Even if it is not, it has nothing to do with the shooting because the bullet exited at least 11 inches from the lapel and 2 inches below the right nipple. There was a strong wind gusting in Dealey Plaza during the shooting. If the lapel flip is real, it was most likely caused by a gust of wind.

However, ask yourself this: Is it physically possible for a lapel to flip up and then down in 1/18th of a second? Really?

[Donald Willis]

I find the Hickey story intriguing, mainly because an LN on alt.assassination.jfk, Claviger by name, endorsed it, some years ago.  He still considered himself an LN because, even if the Hickey story were true, Hickey was not part of a conspiracy.  Like everyone before him (such as Dale Myers), Claviger made the trajectory fit his theory.  I couldn't quite get HOW, but it made me question all the other official and unofficial trajectories.  And, yes, not incidentally, Claviger also read my 12 points re DPD Insp. Sawyer, and agreed that he came off as somewhat of a loon.

[Michael Griffith]

2 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

I find the Hickey story intriguing, mainly because an LN on alt.assassination.jfk, Claviger by name, endorsed it, some years ago.  He still considered himself an LN because, even if the Hickey story were true, Hickey was not part of a conspiracy.  Like everyone before him (such as Dale Myers), Claviger made the trajectory fit his theory.  I couldn't quite get HOW, but it made me question all the other official and unofficial trajectories.  And, yes, not incidentally, Claviger also read my 12 points re DPD Insp. Sawyer, and agreed that he came off as somewhat of a loon.

I knew Howard Donahue, not well, but I knew him. He began to suspect that a rifle from the follow-up car caused the head shot because (1) he knew that the dented shell found in the sniper's nest could not have fired a bullet that day, (2) that the trajectory from the sixth-floor window through JFK's head was impossible given the entry point and the skull damage, and (3) that FMJ bullets do not leave fragments on or just below the outer table of the skull when they enter the skull. 

Howard was one of those fine Americans who found it very hard to believe that his government would brazenly lie to him about something so important as the death of a president. He just could not process it. Thus, he accepted the SBT and went looking for a non-conspiratorial explanation for the head shot. 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

10 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

The Z224 lapel flip is probably an optical illusion. Even if it is not, it has nothing to do with the shooting because the bullet exited at least 11 inches from the lapel and 2 inches below the right nipple. There was a strong wind gusting in Dealey Plaza during the shooting. If the lapel flip is real, it was most likely caused by a gust of wind.

However, ask yourself this: Is it physically possible for a lapel to flip up and then down in 1/18th of a second? Really?

I made a giff of Lattimer's photos of his 1994 jacket bulge & lapel eversion test on the other forum. And below is some of my wordage. As can be seen the flip starts at 02 & ends at 16..........

Here are my latest estimates (done today) off Lattimer's 18 frames (actually 18 photos)(it was not a film)(camera took 30 pix/sec)(Lattimer's test dunn in 1994).
Its difficult to see what is what in Lattimer's 1994 frames (pix) – its partly guesswork.
The flap on the jacket on the 1994 dummy was much longer than the 1963 jacket, so i have divided the 1994 flap into the lower flap & the upper flap.
In the 1963 Zapruder frames the 1963 flap is in effect the upper flap in the 1994 frames.
I assumed that the 1963 slug hit Connally at Z220.0.  This accords with the max flip at Lattimer 07 (1994) happening at the same time as the flip in Z224 (1963).
We don’t see any debris cloud in the 1963 Zapruder frames – the exit outshoot on the 1963 jacket is hidden below the level of the 1963 limo door.
Frame … Time s … Bulge % … Lower/Upper [Flap Flip %] … Debris Cloud % … Zapruder Frame … Connally 1963 Flap.
…. 00 …. 0.0000 …. 000 ……….. 010 …. 000 ……………………………….. 075 ……………………. Z220.0 ….…. hidden by sign..
…. 01 …. 0.0333 …. 040 ………...010 …. 000 ……………………………….. 100 …………………... Z220.6 …….. hidden by sign..
…. 02 …. 0.0667 …. 070 ……….. 060 …. 010 ………………………………. 050 ……………………. Z221.2 … half hidden by sign..
…. 03 …. 0.1000 …. 100 ……….. 100 …. 010 ………………………………. 040 ……………………. Z221.8 … half hidden by sign..
…. 04 …. 0.1333 …. 100 …….... 100 …. 010 ………………………………. 030 ……………………. Z222.4 …….….... no flip ..
…. 05 …. 0.1667 …. 090 …….…. 100 …. 020 ……………………………... 010 ……………………. Z223.0 …….….... no flip ..
…. 06 …. 0.2000 …. 080 …….... 100 …. 050 ………………………………. 005 …………………….. Z223.7 …….….... no flip ..
…. 07 …. 0.2333 …. 070 ……….. 100 …. 100 …………………….………. 000 …………………….. Z224.3 …….. flipped ..
…. 08 …. 0.2667 …. 060 ……….. 100 …. 100 ………………………….…. 000 …………………….. Z224.9 …….. flipped ..
…. 09 …. 0.3000 …. 050 ……... 100 …. 100 …………………………….. 000 ……………….….…. Z225.4 …….. flipped ..
…. 10 …. 0.3333 …. 040 ……... 100 …. 080 …………………………….. 000 ……………….……. Z225.9 …….. flipped ..
…. 11 …. 0.3667 …. 030 ………. 100 …. 050 …………………………….. 000 ……………….…... Z226.8 …….. flipped ..
…. 12 …. 0.4000 …. 020 ………. 100 …. 030 ……………………………. 000 ……….…………... Z227.3 ……...….. blurred frame ..
…. 13 …. 0.4333 …. 020 ……... 080 …. 020 ……………………………... 000 ……….………….. Z227.9 ……...….. blurred frame..
…. 14 …. 0.4667 …. 010 ……... 050 …. 010 ……………………………... 000 …………….……. Z228.4 …….. hidden ..
…. 15 …. 0.5000 …. 010 ……... 030 …. 005 …………………….……….. 000 …………….….…. Z229.2 …….. hidden ..
…. 16 …. 0.5333 …. 000 ………. 020 …. 000 ……………….….…………. 000 …………….……. Z229.8 …….. hidden ..
…. 17 …. 0.5667 …. 000 ……... 010 …. 000 …………………..…………. 000 …………….……. Z2230.3 …….. hidden ..
…. …. …. 0.6000 …. ……. ……... …... …. …... …………………..…………. ..... …………….……. Z231.0 …….. hidden ..

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

6 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

I find the Hickey story intriguing, mainly because an LN on alt.assassination.jfk, Claviger by name, endorsed it, some years ago.  He still considered himself an LN because, even if the Hickey story were true, Hickey was not part of a conspiracy.  Like everyone before him (such as Dale Myers), Claviger made the trajectory fit his theory.  I couldn't quite get HOW, but it made me question all the other official and unofficial trajectories.  And, yes, not incidentally, Claviger also read my 12 points re DPD Insp. Sawyer, and agreed that he came off as somewhat of a loon.

I did read some wordage by claviger, including the wordage below. Some of it referred to a possible slamfire of the AR15, but a slamfire would have fired all of the rounds in the magazine (20 i think), no, it woznt a slamfire.

 

claviger Jun 1, 2020, 12:10:43 AM

Of course LHO initiated the first domino. After the 2nd shot hit the President SA Hickey figured out where the shots were coming from. He was tall to begin with and sitting on a suitcase. As a Marine in the South Pacific he had combat experience with island warfare killing snipers high and low. I think he spotted the sniper on the 6th floor and reached for the AR-15. He leaned forward and grabbed the new high-tech weapon provided by the President. As Hickey was in motion to ready this weapon for return fire SSA Hill stepped off the running board and sprinted to the Limousine. SSA Greer saw what he was doing in the mirror and tapped the brake so Hill could catch up. When SSA Kinney saw the brake lights on the Limousine, he hit the brakes on 679x causing SA Hickey to lose balance. When he did the jolt caused the slam-fire.

 

claviger May 8, 2020, 9:50:10 PM

All I know is slam-fire was a problem in Vietnam with the original AR15 made for the Air Force and tested in combat by the US Army. After much research experts decided the firing pin was too heavy and replaced it with a new firing pin that was a lighter weight. The Secret Service was given one of the USAF original AR-15 to carry in parade duty. That rifle had the original heavy firing pin. Evidently the AR-15 is still having slam-fire problems even with the new lighter firing pin.

Slamfire          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slamfire

 

What would cause an AR-15 to slam fire? https://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8923

Possible Slam-Fire on AR15 or a Accidental or Negligent Discharge?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7GGlScRPTg

 

ArmaLite provided original prototypes of the AR15 for standard US military field testing in the US and sent an allotment to Vietnam for combat testing. The ARVN really liked them a lot and US Advisers did too, but the slam fire issue was discovered over there. The CIC liked them because of the light weight, and the President was sent two USAF AR15 rifles. He gave one to the Secret Service detail for Presidential protection in parade duty. He took the other one to his bay house in Hyannis Port. So the SSA in the Dallas parade carried the original black USAF AR15 model before the firing pin issue was resolved. That prototype rifle had the original stick powder DuPont IMR 4475 generating 3,000 fps hypervelocity, causing devastating wound ballistics. The 1:14 AR-15 twist rate was lowered to 1:12 for the standard production M-16 with Olin Mathieson ball gunpowder that caused jamming problems.

 

AR-15            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-15

 

The Atlantic M-16: A Bureaucratic Horror Story        Why the rifles jammed     James Fallows June 1981 Issue

May 10, 2020, 3:38:41 AM

For once, I agree with you Marsh!

 

claviger  May 27, 2020, 10:07:20 AM  

Maryland Shooters > The Arsenal > Rifles > M1 Garand "slam fire"  M1 Garand "slam fire"

The issue with the M1 and Slam fires is that the firing pin floats and is not ... The M16/AR-15 has a little different setup, but it nets the same result, the ... and will leave a tiny dent, but there is little danger of a slamfire from a rifle ... Jul 12, 2010 - 16 posts - ‎13 authors

https://www.mdshooters.com/archive/index.php/t-39841.html

 

claviger   May 27, 2020, 1:22:16 PM  Nanook July 12th, 2010, 09:25 AM

Same issue can happen with the M-14 and M-16, and civilian copies. As noted above, make sure all the primers are seated properly and ALWAYS chamber a round with the rifle pointed downrange.

 

As we know the AR-15 had never been handled in a parade before, and the SSA were not aware it had a slam-fire problem. I believe SSA Greer could see SSA Hill in the rearview or side mirror running to climb on the Limousine and tapped the brakes to allow him to catch up, maybe when he slipped on his first try. When that happened SSA Kinney hit the brake hard, causing SA Hickey to fall forward. It is quite possible it was a chain reaction causing the AR-15 to make an accidental discharge.

 

bpete1969   May 28, 2020, 3:44:14 AM  Suppose Hickey fell forward...then what? What chain reaction? What was the chain reaction to cause a discharge of the weapon? Please explain...

 

Anthony Marsh  May 28, 2020, 3:44:18 AM

On 5/26/2020 11:22 PM, claviger wrote:

On Tuesday, May 26, 2020 at 7:07:20 PM UTC-5, claviger wrote:

Maryland Shooters > The Arsenal > Rifles > M1 Garand "slam fire" M1 Garand "slam fire"

The issue with the M1 and Slam fires is that the firing pin floats and is not ... The M16/AR-15 has a little different etup, but it nets the same  result, the ... and will leave a tiny dent, but there is little danger of  a slamfire from a rifle ... Jul 12, 2010 - 16 posts - ???13 authors

https://www.mdshooters.com/archive/index.php/t-39841.html

 

 Nanook July 12th, 2010, 09:25 AM  Same issue can happen with the M-14 and M-16, and civilian copies.  As noted above, make sure all the primers are seated properly and ALWAYS chamber a round with the rifle pointed downrange.  As we know the AR-15 had never been handled in a parade before, and the SSA were not aware it had a slam-fire problem. I believe SSA Greer could

No, you have never presented any proof that the SS knew of ANY defects with the AR-15. You make up crap to try to bolster your kook theory.

see SSA Hill in the rearview or side mirror running to climb on the  Limousine and tapped the brakes to allow him to catch up, maybe when he  slipped on his first try. When that happened SSA Kinney hit the brake Maybe,  hard, causing SA Hickey to fall forward. It is quite possible it was a That would not cause the AR-15 to fire. Hickey did not pick it up by the trigger.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

On 9/27/2023 at 1:16 AM, Michael Griffith said:

No SSA etc ever revealed that Hickey fired. One SSA said that the AR15 had not been fired (Floyd Boring). 

But we're not just talking about the other agents in the follow-up car. Kenny O'Donnell and Dave Powers were in that car. When O'Donnell revealed to Tip O'Neill that he had lied during his WC testimony and that he was certain some shots came from the grassy knoll, one would think that he would have also mentioned that one of the agents in the car fired his rifle if Hickey had in fact fired his rifle.

I have fired the AR-15 rifle many times. It is quite loud. When I fired the rifle in the Army, we were required to use ear plugs to protect our hearing. 

I cant  remember the details of Holland's ricochet theory, except that it was mostly silly, except that he was the first to realize that shot-1 had ricocheted offa the signal arm, at pseudo Z103 i think he said (i dont think he said Z132).

He says the first shot was fired during the 3-4-second gap between Z132 and Z133, or about 11.2-15.2 seconds before Z313. He puts the shooting time at 11.2 seconds, which means he's assuming the shot came a frame or two before Z133.

Also, we should keep in mind that even in this lone-gunman scenario, the gunman still would have had to go two for two in 5.6 seconds, something that not even the Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test were able to do.

Firing when the 2" signal arm was possibly in the way was certainly silly, especially the two 3/4" guy rods & coupler (shot-1 hit a guyrod), especially the red yellow green signals & backboard. In 2013 Christopher who owns the original RYG signals & backboard confirmed that there is no bullet damage.

Well, yeah, if Oswald was half the rifleman that the WC claimed he was, he would not have fired with a metal pole intervening near JFK's upper body in his sight view, not to mention that the angle would have been virtually straight down. Even a gunman with minimal experience would not have fired at that time.

I think  Max Holland said Oswald's shot-1 was at pseudo Z103 (when jfk was in line with the signal arm).

Z103 to Oswald's shot-2 at Z218 is 115 frames at 18.3 fps which is 6.3 sec. But the trigger pulls would have been at Z102 & Z215 which is 113 frames which is 6.17 sec.

Then 94 frames to Z312 (Hickey's last shot) is another 5.14  sec.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

On 9/28/2023 at 4:36 AM, Michael Griffith said:

I knew Howard Donahue, not well, but I knew him. He began to suspect that a rifle from the follow-up car caused the head shot because (1) he knew that the dented shell found in the sniper's nest could not have fired a bullet that day, (2) that the trajectory from the sixth-floor window through JFK's head was impossible given the entry point and the skull damage, and (3) that FMJ bullets do not leave fragments on or just below the outer table of the skull when they enter the skull. 

Howard was one of those fine Americans who found it very hard to believe that his government would brazenly lie to him about something so important as the death of a president. He just could not process it. Thus, he accepted the SBT and went looking for a non-conspiratorial explanation for the head shot. 

Michael i appreciate your commitment to the jfk saga. But, i have never corrected u on one little point that i have seen u make umpteen times on this & other forums. So i will correct it now.

Donahue did not say that the existence of many small fragments inside the head near the front of the head support a shot-from-the-front (u love the shot-from-the-front theory).

No, Donahue said that the small fragments near the front support a shot-from-the-back. See top of p228 paperback. See bottom of p247 paperback.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Denise Hazelwood]

All these people who say "Hickey couldn't have done it" ignore a number of things:

1. The Z-film is not authentic. The actual head shot happened farther down Elm Street than Z313, when the limo was closer to the stairs. It does not show "hickey seated at the moment of the head shot" because it is not authentic, and the Z313 head shot is not authentic.
2. All the Elm Street Witnesses who smelled gun smoke at street level, Sen. Ralph Yarborough (in the car behind Hickey's) who smelled gun smoke "all the way to the hospital," Parkland triage nurse Bertha Lozano who smelled smoke inside the hospital when the SS (including Hickey) entered.
3. The early erroneous reports of a Secret Service agent "being killed, too" or "falling over like he was killed, too." 
4. The early AR-15 flaw causing it to slam fire.
5. The acoustical evidence putting 98% certainty of a shot from the "Grassy Knoll"--actually, from the road in front of the GK, but close enough to mimic an echo pattern from there.
6. The Shanklin memo putting "the gun" that fired the "bullet that apparently killed the President" in the hands of the SS immediately after the assassination. (The TSBD/Oswald weapon went directly from DPD to FBI without ever passing through the hands of the SS.)
7. The grammatical error in Hickey's memo indicating that he didn't write it himself.
8. All the evidence of cover-up and pinning everything on Oswald, related to the events of Dealey Plaza (not counting any Oswald/CIA connections).
9. The immediacy of the cover-up.
10. My own modified version of the AR-15 accident scenario, involving two head shots (the first from Oswald, the second from the AR-15). Watch my documentary. Go to https://www.a-benign-conspiracy.com to view the episodes.

The AR-15 accident explains so much! People, especially those who mistakenly put their trust in the Z-film and fabricated "evidence," dismiss it too readily. 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

23 minutes ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

All these people who say "Hickey couldn't have done it" ignore a number of things:

1. The Z-film is not authentic. The actual head shot happened farther down Elm Street than Z313, when the limo was closer to the stairs. It does not show "hickey seated at the moment of the head shot" because it is not authentic, and the Z313 head shot is not authentic.

I see that Z212 is our last glimpse of Hickey (ie 101 frames before Z313). Here at Z212 jfk has not yet disappeared behind the sign, & jfk has not yet been hit by Oswald shot-2.

[Denise Hazelwood]

 

5 hours ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

I see that Z212 is our last glimpse of Hickey (ie 101 frames before Z313). Here at Z212 jfk has not yet disappeared behind the sign, & jfk has not yet been hit by Oswald shot-2.

Actually, we last see him in the sprocket area right at the 208 part of the 208/212 splice, with a faint ghostly image where his head should be in 212 before the camera pans to the right and cuts him off completely. The "recovered" frames from the copies did not have the sprocket areas.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

15 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

 

Actually, we last see him in the sprocket area right at the 208 part of the 208/212 splice, with a faint ghostly image where his head should be in 212 before the camera pans to the right and cuts him off completely. The "recovered" frames from the copies did not have the sprocket areas.

Hickey can be seen in the Bronson footage (which is very blurry), some of which is before Z313 & some after Z313.

Searching Bronson today gives 840 hits on this forum.

Some of these hits (the best of these hits) are my comments, which i made in the last couple of years (some of my Bronson comments are on this present thread).

[Denise Hazelwood]

4 hours ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

Hickey can be seen in the Bronson footage (which is very blurry), some of which is before Z313 & some after Z313.

Searching Bronson today gives 840 hits on this forum.

Some of these hits (the best of these hits) are my comments, which i made in the last couple of years (some of my Bronson comments are on this present thread).

The Bronson frame that purportedly "shows Hickey seated at the moment of the assassination" does not necessarily "show the moment of the assassination" (which actually happened farther down Elm street than the Z313 "head shot" apparently shows). However, the Bronson film does show a "black stick" (Bonar Menninger's term as used to me in a private letter) which you can see if you look carefully. Menninger and I both think this is the AR-15. Check out the image at http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2013/08/drums-of-conspiracy.html that supposedly "disproves" the Donahue t

[Michael Crane]

That would be a big no from me Dog.

That's right up there with Greer shooting JFK.

Those dogs don't hunt.

Edited February 20 by Michael Crane