Guy Banister and the CIA

[Ron Bulman]

Hunt in N.O. in 61 for the CIA seems important to me.  Given the city's importance in the Bay of Pigs, and the summer of 63.

Oswald was framed in the summer of 1963 in New Orleans in both it and Mexico City imho.

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I read a spiral-bound edition of SWHT and seemed to have retained about 10% of what I read.

Where did you read a spiral bound copy of SWHT?

[Ron Bulman]

In the summer of 63, JFK, Oswald and others might have heard the Kingsmen version of this on the AM radio.  Their version drew an FBI investigation.

Louie Louie by The Kingsmen - Songfacts

The Raiders did it better.  An American classic, watch close.

 

[Pete Mellor]

6 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Where did you read a spiral bound copy of SWHT?

Spiral bound new publication of SWHT was on sale at Lancer's 2003 conference in Dallas.  I bought one, signed by Larry.

[Gerry Down]

13 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Thanks Larry. I will have to check that out. Is this discussed in the Kindle edition of SWHT? If so I will buy it tonight. Your statements in this thread about are spot-on with the angle I've been looking into, so I'm very interested in reading what you've dug up.

Almost immediately after this "alternate detective company" is selected and Bannister gets a clearance, GB&A gets involved in all sorts of anti-Castro activities. A contractor-subcontractor type setup would add an additional layer of plausible deniability, and allow for covert funding and control of ground level assets with zero ties to the agency (David Ferrie?).

One thing I found that's interesting is that William R. Martin, Director of International Relations for the Trade Mart and future Garrison investigator, had worked part-time for Bannister flushing out pro-Castro subversives at Tulane. He was also a CIA source, and his CIA prior-employment listing reflects that as of late 1964, Martin was employed with Southern Research Co. on a "special assignment basis", and had been since '59.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=55559#relPageId=3 (name illegible but it's definitely Martin)

This was during his employment with the Trade Mart, and Bannister - and is potential evidence of crossover activities between the CIA, SRC and GB&A. I have other examples too, and one lead that's extremely provocative, but I'm trying to fill in as much as I can before I write anything up. I'll definitely check out your book, but any other information you can provide on CIA use of corporations, QKENCHANT, domestic propaganda ops etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Do you have a source for Banister being involved in this type of activity at Tulane? The below document says he admitted to the FBI that he was involved in ferreting out pro-castro sympathizers at Louisianna State University at Baton Rouge:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=49346#relPageId=240&search=guy_banister refugees

P.S. The below HSCA document states that the reason the CIA were considering using Guy Banisters office in 1960 was "as a cover mechanism for gathering foreign intelligence" whatever exactly that means. 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=49346#relPageId=239&search=guy_banister refugees

[Larry Hancock]

The "cover mechanism for gathering foreign intelligence" is pretty standard CIA speak....it could be applied to the way they used Meheu in DC - but he was not a cover per se but rather a domestic operations asset targeting foreigners.  It could be applied to the way they used international trade mart employees like Shaw - and more than one ITM personnel were used domestically for foreign intel collection.  Its perfectly within the CIA's legal mandate to use domestic companies for collections work targeting foreign visitors  or contacts. 

Given New Orleans position on the Gulf and the amount of trade and communications going through there it was an attractive location for collections and propaganda...which is why you find CIA officers traveling there and at least two SAS/JMWAVE employees actually in residence there for times during 63.

And in all of this its important to remember that all this is simply part of standard CIA practice, the day job for lots of people in both Western Hemisphere and assigned to special projects like those targeting Cuba and Castro.

A side note on that spiral bound copy of SWHT, gosh that was early on - no doubt some things I would probably leave out now and a ton that was added to the later editions, especially 2010.  On the other hand it did contain the Tywman transcript of at least one day of his Hargraves interviews.  Which I had to pull from later editions due to Noel's concerns over possible legal action.

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Larry Hancock

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

The "cover mechanism for gathering foreign intelligence" is pretty standard CIA speak....it could be applied to the way they used Meheu in DC - but he was not a cover per se but rather a domestic operations asset targeting foreigners.  It could be applied to the way they used international trade mart employees like Shaw - and more than one ITM personnel were used domestically for foreign intel collection.  Its perfectly within the CIA's legal mandate to use domestic companies for collections work targeting foreign visitors  or contacts. 

Given New Orleans position on the Gulf and the amount of trade and communications going through there it was an attractive location for collections and propaganda...which is why you find CIA officers traveling there and at least two SAS/JMWAVE employees actually in residence there for times during 63.

But the person or company they were spying on would have to be foreign, right? For example, the CIA could not use Guy Banisters & Associates to spy on Oswald and surreptitiously gather intel from him (without him knowing) regarding his time in the USSR and any foreign intel he could provide them with. That would be spying on a US citizen which was illegal for the CIA. If the CIA wanted info from Oswald like this they would have to be open about it to Oswald such as in a debrief so that he knew he was providing foreign intel to a US government agency. 

By the way, who was the other CIA employee who had residence in New Orleans in 1963 - Joannides and?

[Larry Hancock]

By statute the CIA is allowed to collect information on foreigners inside the United States who may be acting against CIA personnel or activities,  if that means observing them meeting with or in contact with US citizens that would simply be part of the collections - after all foreigners engaged in real spying would most likely be in contact with Americans or somehow penetrating US companies, agencies, etc.  Of course it is also expected that once a real spy or agent would be identified CIA would bring the FBI into the picture and potentially hand it off to them, we do have examples of that ala "Tumbleweed".

The best way to really dig into what is and is not allowed this is to read the National Security Acts of 1947 and that of 1948 on the CIA itself and then read the Title 50 code on clandestine operations.  I deal with that at in some detail in Shadow Warfare.

If Bannister's company was going to be used as a collections cover it would most likely mean putting CIA assets to work under the cover of being with his business and then task them to observe suspects potentially in contact with foreign agents, including a variety of suspect Cuban refugees, immigrants or even suspect double agents in the anti-Castro community.  Of course that would make most sense at the times where such suspects could post a threat to CIA operations, which in 61/61 would have been the evolving Cuba Project.

Of course using Bannister's company as a cover for meetings and contacts related to developing propaganda against Cuba would not have any real restriction at all...

On your question, well actually you need to read Tipping Point (free on MFF) but for the moment I will leave it for David Boylan to address since he did the work on it and the name is part of an extensive organization chart of SAS/WAVE which he had developed and should get the credit for given the depth of his research (which I allowed met to use in Tipping Point).

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Larry Hancock

[Gerry Down]

26 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

 

On your question, well actually you need to read Tipping Point (free on MFF) but for the moment I will leave it for David Boylan to address since he did the work on it and the name is part of an extensive organization chart of SAS/WAVE which he had developed and should get the credit for given the depth of his research (which I allowed met to use in Tipping Point).

 

Would love to see that chart. Does he make it available anywhere? I have the physical copy of Tipping Point. Just flicked through it and don't see an actual chart, so i presume the chart is in text form in the book itself. I have still got to get around to actually reading the book. 

[Tom Gram]

3 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Do you have a source for Banister being involved in this type of activity at Tulane? The below document says he admitted to the FBI that he was involved in ferreting out pro-castro sympathizers at Louisianna State University at Baton Rouge:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=49346#relPageId=240&search=guy_banister refugees

P.S. The below HSCA document states that the reason the CIA were considering using Guy Banisters office in 1960 was "as a cover mechanism for gathering foreign intelligence" whatever exactly that means. 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=49346#relPageId=239&search=guy_banister refugees

Yes, from Bannister himself to the FBI. William R. Martin attended Tulane Law School and worked as a part-time investigator for Bannister “ascertaining the political sympathies of Cuban and other foreign students attending Tulane”:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=81057#relPageId=20

That HSCA document is just referencing the 9/13/60 security report and other CIA investigative documents from 1960 on Bannister. There is actually nothing in the original documents that states specifically that the proposed detective agency QKENCHANT cover operation was strictly for gathering foreign intelligence. What the HSCA staffer looks to have done is blend together Bannister’s 11/16/60 security approval with the proposed cover plan - the security approval, or at least of summary of it that was sent to the HSCA, does state that Bannister was approved for use as a “foreign intelligence source”. I have not been able to find the original clearance documents however from Nov ‘60, and would love to get ahold of them (if they still exist). 

Either way, like Larry said that’s pretty standard CIA-speak, and does not reflect any real restrictions on Bannister’s use as an asset. I suspect the security approval was just so that Bannister’s operation could be used as a subcontractor for the “alternate detective agency” that ended up getting approved as a cover mechanism. 

[Larry Hancock]

Gerry,  I misled you a bit,  David has developed enough material do to a detailed WAVE organization chart (which is actually an extension of the Miami station/Cuba Project org chart circa 1960) and I've used pieces of it in my recent books. He has not actually done a formal chart although bits and pieces have gone into our recent presentations and interviews on different subjects.  It would be a handy thing to have, especially in a form that shows the evolution of the various positions from 1960 -1963 but it would be a lot of work and I'm not going to volunteer him for that. 

Since he's not shown up here yet, the name William Kent should go along with Joannides as in regard to New Orleans, the DRE and new propaganda programs in 1963....Kent following Joannides.  Kent is the follow who reportedly described Oswald to his daughter as a "useful idiot".  Start on page 78 in Tipping Point for several pages and you will also come across an important new name not much discussed (yet) - William Moore, Deputy Chief of Station at WAVE in 63.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Larry Hancock

[Tom Gram]

13 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

 

Ben, you will find a good bit about the "new" propaganda campaign being built around Oswald's media image in New Orleans in Tipping Point (on MFF) although I don't think I went back to revisit the earlier Bay of Pigs era abortive effort.   Actually I've come to think that New Orleans may indeed be more crucial to understand how Oswald ended up as a patsy in Dallas than the events in Mexico City.

Its pretty interesting to revisit Garrison's take on Oswald's allegiances in New Orleans, which most of us haven't looked at in awhile, if ever, and to recall that the Clinton incident occurred well after Oswald's  Cuba/Castro support media appearances.

http://22november1963.org.uk/jim-garrison-oswald-banister-new-orleans

I forgot to ask about this. I'm very interested in this idea of a "new" propaganda campaign springing up around Oswald's media appearances in New Orleans, since it ties into something I've been working on. I will definitely check out the pertinent sections of Tipping Point. Do you have any information on CIA involvement in the incorporation of new businesses - and/or shell companies established by existing CIA affiliates to handle specific contracts/projects? I'm assuming that would be discussed in Shadow Warfare, which I will read also, but any examples you have would be a big help. 

I'm also interested in the role of DCD in propaganda ops, or any domestic activities in New Orleans aside from information gathering. It seems like everyone and their brother was a cleared DCD informant, but it's tough to find anything beyond "x person provided us y information on z occasions" etc. 

Lastly, do you know anything about CIA liaison with the Justice Department in New Orleans, specifically the US Attorney's office? I know the CIA got the FBI to cease all further investigation of the CRC in New Orleans in August '62 through Asst. Attorney General J. Walter Yeagley in Washington, but I haven't seen much on CIA interaction with local Justice Dept. officials. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=80623#relPageId=2

[Larry Hancock]

Tom, first off on the new propaganda campaign check pages 82-83 for the campaign that had already begun under DRE...which seems to generally receive little attention, and then check the references to INCA in the detailed Index available on MFF:

https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/2021/TippingPoint_ExpandedIndex.pdf

Although the campaign (which DRE started but which SAS was likely going to take further) aborted with the assassination it was being geared up to start in the 4th quarter of 63 and conducted quite deniably though cut outs.  We know specifically that was one of the tasks given to Phillips when he was brought into SAS by Fitzgerald in 1963. The campaign was to target FPCC and Castro influence inside the US and it was to be conducted in parallel with the new AMWORLD project and he was the only person in Mexico City cleared for that project.

I give several examples of both proprietary (funded, owned or financed by the CIA itself) as well as commercial covers used in deniable operations in Shadow Warfare.  Some of the best examples come from SE Asia and from the AMWORLD project which we are lucky enough to know about in detail....in the latter you find a whole series of covers used in purchasing weapons, supplies, boats, etc.  There is also a record of how deniable funds are transferred for such activities. 

The third type of "cover", used primarily for collections or logistics (moving people under cover) involves individuals placed inside companies doing business in areas where the CIA initiated projects.  Well placed Sr Execs would use their local contacts to collect desire economic and political information and use the companies assets such as boats or planes to move CIA personnel under cover.  Several examples of that with the bit Ag companies operating across Central and South America.

As to Justice Dept "agreements",  those we know about were normally done in DC, at very high levels.  I give several examples in SW but perhaps the most egregious had to do with an agreement which allowed the CIA not to report drug dealings by Contra associated surrogates and supporters during its Nicaragua operations.   I really doubt that you would find such agreements with Justice actually negotiated below  HQ level.

If you want to discuss any of this in more detail just email me at larryjoe@westok.net

 

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Larry Hancock

[Douglas Caddy]

The 1960 CIA document shows that the agency was interested in Guy Banister about a year after he and I addressed a rally in New Orleans to oppose the World Youth Festival in Vienna.

 

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/7fKgzfeYtpI?pli=1

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Douglas Caddy

[James DiEugenio]

Paul Bleau is coming out with a really interesting essay as part 3 of his "Exposing the FPCC" for K and K.

It will touch on some of these subjects. It is largely based on Garrison's files as distributed by Len Osanic.

I should add, Malcolm and Bart have also discovered another hidden gem in the CIA files.

The CIA was paying Shaw directly for his intelligence work abroad in the fifties. A fact they deliberately lied about and which Shaw deliberately lied about repeatedly. Even under oath at his trial.

This does two things: 1.) It explodes the whole HSCA myth about Shaw being part of the voluntary businessmen's program of over 100,000 interviews per year BS,

and

2.) It backs up the discovery by Joan Mellen about Shaw being a valued contract CIA agent since the fifties.

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by James DiEugenio