Klein's didn't start selling the 40" rifle until August, 1963

[David Von Pein]

23 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

...and when Mitchell Westra, the guy who should have testified to the WC was deposed by the HSCA, he gave some pretty provocative information that cast doubt on whether Klein’s would have shipped out a scope mounted 40” rifle at all. 

Re: Mitchell Westra and the Scope....

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search=Mitchell+Westra

-----------------------------

Excerpt....

"Undoubtably Klein's mounted some..." -- Mitchell Westra; Feb. 1978

-----------------------------

Also.....

To say [as many CTers do] that Klein's never mounted scopes on its 40-inch rifles is practically the same as totally ignoring all of the many ads that Klein's Sporting Goods was placing in magazines in mid to late 1963. Was Klein's lying to its mail-order customers when it said that a customer could purchase a 40-inch carbine with scope ("as illustrated") -- i.e., the scope is attached to the gun itself?

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

Let me add, the reason the other side reacts to this issue like a vampire confronted by a crucifix in broad daylight is pretty simple.

In one fell swoop, the whole case against Oswald instantly collapses.

This is why I used it effectively against Bugliosi in my book.  Vince left himself wide open on the subject by simply adapting the assumptions of Belin and the WR.

I  could barely believe it, because as an attorney you always try and prevent yourself from being blindsided.

So I was able to make much of this issue against VInce in an interview I did in LA.

Edited August 16, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Re: Mitchell Westra and the Scope....

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search=Mitchell+Westra

-----------------------------

Excerpt....

"Undoubtably Klein's mounted some..." -- Mitchell Westra; Feb. 1978

-----------------------------

Also.....

To say [as many CTers do] that Klein's never mounted scopes on its 40-inch rifles is practically the same as totally ignoring all of the many ads that Klein's Sporting Goods was placing in magazines in mid to late 1963. Was Klein's lying to its mail-order customers when it said that a customer could purchase a 40-inch carbine with scope ("as illustrated") -- i.e., the scope is attached to the gun itself?

 

Westra HSCA testimony is a side note to the issues pointed out in my comment. He should have testified in ‘64, and should have been the main point of contact for the FBI instead of Waldman. When the FBI had to review the Klein’s records in a case in October ‘63, Westra, the guy who was actually in charge of all the stuff Waldman testified about, was the guy they talked to. The point is that Waldman taking over the investigation is more than a little strange, and may have not been SOP for the FBI dealing with Klein’s. 

Westra added that caveat to his HSCA testimony because he was convinced Klein’s mounted the scope on C2766. That may even be true, but his testimony 14 years after the fact is hardly probative - and the point is that any way you swing it the FBI and WC bungled the rifle investigation to such a ridiculous degree that to say a suspicion is reasonable is an understatement. 

I’m not even against you on this David. I have studied the rifle investigation in excruciating detail and am not 100% convinced that the anomalies in the record and egregious investigative failures cannot be explained by a few FBI agents massively screwing up and subsequently trying to cover their asses. To deny that those anomalies exist though reflects at the very least a less than thorough pursuit of the truth, and it would help lone assassin theorists’ credibility dramatically if they would address those problems honestly and in depth instead of cherry picking whatever trivial ambiguity they think they can debunk. 

[Gil Jesus]

7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Mark please.  

The guy who owned Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods told the FBI that Mussolini ordered many arms factories in Italy to produce the MC rifles and carbines. With many companies doing so, "The same serial number appears on weapons manufactured by more than one concern. Some bear a letter prefix and some do not." (DiEugenio, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, p. 83)

The late Tom Purvis showed this since he had one made in 1940 which had the number C5522, made at the Gardone factory.  Obviously they had to pass the number 2766 to get to that number. (ibid). Just do the math, all those factories produced about 3 million of these rifles. Before he changed his story Lattimer said he had one  with that serial number. (Martha Moyer, "Ordering the Rifle", JFK Lancer.)

To your point, Jim, Commission Exhibit 2562:

 

On page 250 of his book, Kennedy and Lincoln, Lattimer admitted that he and his sons "conducted a series of experiments using a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano carbine, Model 19/38, serial number C2766" :

I don't get posts from Lone Nutters. Experience with these people has shown me that they have nothing to offer but speculation, opinion, comments and insults. Von Pein refers you to his blog of "arguments". You rarely, if ever, see them post evidence. So as far as I'm concerned, they're a total waste of my time. I can be convinced of anything, just show me the evidence. But if it's not in the Warren Report, they're unable to respond with evidence.

Oh, they'll cite Posner, Bugliosi and Myers. Or anybody else whose done the legwork for their side. But don't expect them to do any research. They don't know the testimony or the exhibits or the documents. You won't find them searching through FBI files or Dallas Police files or Oswald's 201 CIA files.

Would they like us to believe that Klein's advertised the 36" rifle for five months ( March-August, '63 ) while it shipped 40" rifles in its place ?

Where's the evidence of that ?

Some years ago, I asked these Warren Commission supporters to show me one person, other than Oswald, who ordered a 36" rifle from Klein's between March and August 1963 and received a 40" rifle in its place.

They could not do so.

I've posted in this thread evidence that Klein's did not offer the 40" rifle for sale until August, 1963.

If they have evidence to the contrary, let them show it to the world. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Mark Ulrik]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The guy who owned Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods told the FBI that Mussolini ordered many arms factories in Italy to produce the MC rifles and carbines. With many companies doing so, "The same serial number appears on weapons manufactured by more than one concern. Some bear a letter prefix and some do not." (DiEugenio, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, p. 83)

Nevertheless, only one Carcano with the serial number C2766 (number part "2766" and prefix "C") is known to exist.

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The late Tom Purvis showed this since he had one made in 1940 which had the number C5522, made at the Gardone factory.  Obviously they had to pass the number 2766 to get to that number. (ibid). Just do the math, all those factories produced about 3 million of these rifles. Before he changed his story Lattimer said he had one  with that serial number. (Martha Moyer, "Ordering the Rifle", JFK Lancer.)

Had Lattimer actually owned a C2766, it seems likely he would've realized it was a kind of a big deal, so why only mention it in passing? As he later told a curious researcher, it was simply an error that went unnoticed until the book was printed and it was too late to do anything about it.

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Gil Jesus said:

I don't get posts from Lone Nutters.

[...]

I can be convinced of anything, just show me the evidence.

I did, Gil. But since you "don't get posts from Lone Nutters", you never saw that evidence.

 

Quote

I've posted in this thread evidence that Klein's did not offer the 40" rifle for sale until August, 1963.

If they have evidence to the contrary, let them show it to the world.

I have shown it to the world, many times, including on page 1 of this thread. I've had this evidence for 12 years now. Why haven't you seen it before?

But I guess you've got me on ignore, so you'll never know that this whole thread you've started here is total crap. The 40-inch Carcano was advertised in American Rifleman as early as the April '63 issue (which means, no doubt, that people could have easily seen that issue as early as mid-March).

Here's the American Rifleman breakdown again (in case you were of the opinion that "Guns" Magazine was THE only publication anyone could use to try and prove a point; maybe a CTer can copy this into a future post so Gil J. Jesus can lay eyes on it for himself):

-------------------------------------

Jan 63 -- p. 61 -- 36-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Feb 63 -- p. 65 -- Same ad as above

Mar 63 -- No ad

Apr 63 -- p. 55 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

May 63 -- Missing pp. 63-66

Jun 63 -- p. 59 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Jul 63 -- p. 67 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.78 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Aug 63 -- p. 79 -- Same ad as above

Sep 63 -- p. 89 -- Same ad as above

Oct 63 -- p. 85 -- Same ad as above

Nov 63 -- No ad

Dec 63 -- No ad

[Source: E-mail to David Von Pein from Gary Mack, August 18, 2010.]

---------------------------------

Edited August 16, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I did, Gil. But since you "don't get posts from Lone Nutters", you never saw that evidence.

 

I have shown it to the world, many times, including on page 1 of this thread. I've had this evidence for 12 years now. Why haven't you seen it before?

But I guess you've got me on ignore, so you'll never know that this whole thread you've started here is total crap. The 40-inch Carcano was advertised in American Rifleman as early as the April '63 issue (which means, no doubt, that people could have easily seen that issue as early as mid-March).

Here's the American Rifleman breakdown again (in case you were of the opinion that "Guns" Magazine was THE only publication anyone could use to try and prove a point; maybe a CTer can copy this into a future post so Gil J. Jesus can lay eyes on it for himself):

-------------------------------------

Jan 63 -- p. 61 -- 36-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Feb 63 -- p. 65 -- Same ad as above

Mar 63 -- No ad

Apr 63 -- p. 55 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

May 63 -- Missing pp. 63-66

Jun 63 -- p. 59 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Jul 63 -- p. 67 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.78 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Aug 63 -- p. 79 -- Same ad as above

Sep 63 -- p. 89 -- Same ad as above

Oct 63 -- p. 85 -- Same ad as above

Nov 63 -- No ad

Dec 63 -- No ad

[Source: E-mail to David Von Pein from Gary Mack, August 18, 2010.]

---------------------------------

 

I don't know whether or not Gil has you on Ignore Dave, but what you posted isn't really evidence. It is hearsay of hearsay.

 

[Gil Jesus]

46 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I don't know whether or not Gil has you on Ignore Dave, but what you posted isn't really evidence. It is hearsay of hearsay.

 

Yes I do have him on ignore and now you know why.

[John Butler]

49 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jan 63 -- p. 61 -- 36-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Feb 63 -- p. 65 -- Same ad as above

Mar 63 -- No ad

Apr 63 -- p. 55 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

May 63 -- Missing pp. 63-66

Jun 63 -- p. 59 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Jul 63 -- p. 67 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.78 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Aug 63 -- p. 79 -- Same ad as above

Sep 63 -- p. 89 -- Same ad as above

Oct 63 -- p. 85 -- Same ad as above

Nov 63 -- No ad

Dec 63 -- No ad

Are there any visuals of these ads in In the 1963 American Rifleman editions?  Surely, since this list is based upon the ads in each addition of American Rifleman there should be the ads themselves as seen in a copy of that magazine.  Show the ads.  Let's see them in all their glory.  Otherwise, this list should be viewed with skepticism and simply not factual but as said hearsay.  

[Mark Ulrik]

7 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Yes I do have him on ignore and now you know why.

Plausible deniability would be my guess.

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I don't know whether or not Gil has you on Ignore Dave, but what you posted isn't really evidence. It is hearsay of hearsay.

 

While this is true, we can suspect it is accurate, until proven otherwise. Someone needs to acquire the American Rifleman magazine and double-check what Gary once told David. It's possible it's incorrect. But in the meantime we can suspect otherwise. 

Although Gary Mack was closed-minded about a lot of things, and wrong about a lot of things, and was consultant on a number of deceptive TV shows, he was not one to just make-up evidence. He had access to a lot of material and was believed to be accurate when reporting what was in that material.  

I apologize if my current lack of attention span has led me to inaccurately understand this thread, but it seems to me it is based on an inaccurate perception of how sales companies operate. When you are buying items no longer in production, and selling them at a discount, the profitability of your company and your future employment relies upon your selling through that which you acquire. With some new products, you can return that which you do not sell, or be given a price break off a future invoice if the product does not sell. But older close-out items are a one-way sale. You buy-it, you own it. No returns. So you must keep selling through what you have purchased until it is all gone. (You can see this today at stores like Big Lots!.)    

In any event, it's quite possible that the Klein sales team had plenty of 36 inch rifles when the 40 inch rifles arrived, and that they continued to feature these in a number of ads until their numbers dwindled. And that they then began featuring the 40 inch rifles in those ads. There is nothing suspicious about this. You see it every day when you walk through a store. Say a floor polish manufacturer has changed the chemical make-up of their products, to make them less harmful to the environment. They don't recall all their old products and take a huge loss. They release their new product to let's say, Wal-Mart and Target, and continue to selli their old products (perhaps even at a slight discount) to stores like Big Lots! and Dollar Tree. Until it is all gone. 

We can suspect this is what happened with the rifles. 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Steve Roe]

13 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Oswald never ordered any such rifle.

He most certainty did.

We have been through this for ages.

Yes, and it's been debunked nine ways to Sunday. 

And people keep on dredging up the same evidence that does not fly.

Yet, you don't provide any provable explanation to why it wasn't Oswald's rifle. 

Not even Marina, perhaps the most compromised witness in this case, would admit that was the rifle to the Secret service. 

This is really funny and ludicrous. You didn't tell your followers here that Marina led the DPD Detectives to Mrs. Paine's garage and pointed to the blanket where she thought her murdering husband's rifle was. So, Mr. DiEugenio, where is Oswald's' rifle?

Where did it go???

The correct answer of course is on the 6th floor. 

If it was so common to send out the  wrong rifle, why does Belin never bring up that assumed fact?  The FBI had the run of Klein's did they not? Are you going to say that Belin did not know it was the wrong rifle?

Serial numbers matched from Klein's paperwork and on the rifle itself. No mystery Mr. DiEugenio. No grandiose plot 7 months earlier with sinister CIA operatives setting up a false rifle purchase long before there was any talk of Kennedy coming to Dallas.

Why don't you explain to everyone here why/how Oswald was arrested with a phony amateurish Hidell Selective Service card, with his photo on it and the Klein's purchase with the same name? Was that a coincidence too? 

Why does not one witness from the post office recall going into the back, retrieving that long box and turning it over?

Grasping at straws again. At a busy downtown General Post Office, would you remember every parcel or package you brought up to the front window desk 7-8 months earlier? That was a very busy Post Office Mr. DiEugenio, of course you're not from Dallas and wouldn't understand. Hundreds of people were in that Post Office on a daily basis. 

Where did Oswald get  that rear strap drilled in?

I addressed that with Larry Schnapf. It was not a different model Carcano rifle as claimed by Mr. Brian Edwards in your film. Mr. Edwards was just mistaken on the interpretation of the photo. No harm, no foul, I respect Mr. Edward's career in law enforcement. The Strap D-Ring mounts are side mounted as per the backyard photos. Both of them. 

Does anyone really think a money order could be flown from Dallas, to the main Chicago post office, sent out to the local tributary office and then hand carried to Klein's, and then go through their sorting system, and then carried over to the bank for deposit in 24 hours?

(See David Von Pein's post about the Rocket Mail Postal run in this thread)

Mr. DiEugenio finally admitted to everyone here on this forum that the airmail letter could reach Chicago in one day. Of course, this was a total reversal of your claims before that it was impossible. Would you like me to quote it again so everyone can see for themselves? (It's already been screen captured). Also Mr. DiEugenio take another look at Waldman Exhibit #10 and explain to everyone here how the Klein's Cash Register (Accounts Receivable daily run) matched to the penny the Cash Deposit slip. Coincidence? Multiple entries, down to the penny. It doesn't matter when that money order was deposited, same day or 2 days later. I'm sorry but your false mysteries are going nowhere.  

If you buy that, I can sell you some valuable swampland in Florida.  

I trust you are very familiar with swamps, so I'll take your word for it. 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Steve Roe
Correct the spelling of Waldman

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

In any event, it's quite possible that the Klein sales team had plenty of 36 inch rifles when the 40 inch rifles arrived, and that they continued to feature these in a number of ads until their numbers dwindled. And that they then began featuring the 40 inch rifles in those ads. There is nothing suspicious about this. You see it every day when you walk through a store. Say a floor polish manufacturer has changed the chemical make-up of their products, to make them less harmful to the environment. They don't recall all their old products and take a huge loss. They release their new product to let's say, Wal-Mart and Target, and continue to selli their old products (perhaps even at a slight discount) to stores like Big Lots! and Dollar Tree. Until it is all gone. 

We can suspect this is what happened with the rifles. 

This is a good point. The problem I see is that with the specific part number on the Hidell order and department number that references a specific ad, it seems doubtful that Klein’s would ship out a 40” rifle and turn less of a profit unless they were completely out of stock of 36” rifles. 

Klein’s ordered 400 36” rifles from Crescent with a requested delivery date of October ‘62. The first removal of rifles from Harborside Terminal by Fred Rupp in August ‘62 was a bunch of cartons of 36” rifles - most likely to fill that order. 
Crescent shipped out 50 36” rifles in Dec ‘62 and another 50 in Feb 63”.  Was this part of a staged delivery plan for the order of 400? Were they separate orders? Did those rifles even go to Klein’s?

The WC did not use Fred Rupp’s shipping book (that reflects these shipments of 36” rifles) as an Exhibit. Also, on the WC copy of the Klein’s order form, Waldman Exhibit 1, the Oct ‘62 requested delivery date for the order of 400 is completely illegible. 

The WC did not ask Waldman or Scibor a single question about their stock or sales volume, or anything about 36 vs. 40” rifles. The bank statement provided by Klein’s reflects only about 10 possible Carcanos sold in the previous month. 

Basically, there is reason to doubt that Klein’s was out of stock of 36” rifles, and the WC avoided the issue like the plague.  

Can anyone read the first word of cursive handwriting in the column referencing the order of 400? This is the FBI copy of Waldman Exhibit 1 where the Oct. ‘62 delivery date is visible by the way. It says “net” or “vet” or something before “60 days” and I’m awful at reading cursive apparently:

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/rifle-info-kleins-order/717415?item=717419

Edited August 16, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

This is a good point. The problem I see is that with the specific part number on the Hidell order and department number that references a specific ad, it seems doubtful that Klein’s would ship out a 40” rifle and turn less of a profit unless they were completely out of stock of 36” rifles. 

Klein’s ordered 400 36” rifles from Crescent with a requested delivery date of October ‘62. The first removal of rifles from Harborside Terminal by Fred Rupp in August ‘62 was a bunch of cartons of 36” rifles - most likely to fill that order. 
Crescent shipped out 50 36” rifles in Dec ‘62 and another 50 in Feb 63”.  Was this part of a staged delivery plan for the order of 400? Were they separate orders? Did those rifles even go to Klein’s?

The WC did not use Fred Rupp’s shipping book (that reflects these shipments of 36” rifles) as an Exhibit. Also, on the WC copy of the Klein’s order form, Waldman Exhibit 1, the Oct ‘62 requested delivery date for the order of 400 is completely illegible. 

The WC did not ask Waldman or Scibor a single question about their stock or sales volume, or anything about 36 vs. 40” rifles. The bank statement provided by Klein’s reflects only about 10 possible Carcanos sold in the previous month. 

Basically, there is reason to doubt that Klein’s was out of stock of 36” rifles, and the WC avoided the issue like the plague.  

Can anyone read the first word of cursive handwriting in the column referencing the order of 400? This is the FBI copy of Waldman Exhibit 1 where the Oct. ‘62 delivery date is visible by the way. It says “net” or “vet” or something before “60 days” and I’m awful at reading cursive apparently:

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/rifle-info-kleins-order/717415?item=717419

"Net 60 days" means the client has 60 days to pay after delivery

[James DiEugenio]

Mark:

I just gave you two examples which indicate the serial numbers repeated.

The idea that say me, or Gil would have the ability to track down all the other ones, that is pure Von Peinism. How could an individual citizen, by himself, without any of the proper investigative power and aids do such a thing?  Its like asking, OK, if you think there was a hole in the back of Kennedy's head, dig him up and show it to us.  That is just nonsense.  As per Latimer, Gil showed you the quote from his own book.  When his fellow Oswald did it fanatics alerted him to the fact that he was hurting their case, he changed his story.

The reason Gil and also myself have Von Pein on ignore is very simple.  Its due to our repeated exposure, year after year after year, to his silly arguments, which he never alters.  Because they are not based on evidence but on a position.

Many years ago, he tried to defend Bugliosi's book.  I pointed out that Vince was lying in his introduction. DVP did not know what I was talking about, which showed i knew that book better than he did.  I quoted him the part where Vince said he would make the critics' arguments as they wanted them made before neutralizing them.  This was pure Bugliosian BS.  And I proved it with 25 examples from the book, where VInce had to have known he was being dishonest.  Since the better and more convincing evidence was right in the same place.

When you can do that 25 times, I think its time for you to call it a day.  What does DVP say, "Well, if you want to call him a l--r, OK."  I just proved with 25 examples from his own book that he had done just that.

So what is the point in arguing with someone like that?  And let us not forget, when DVP got thrown out of Lancer.  He recommended books on psychiatry for everyone else to cure them of their maladies.  This from a guy who would cover up 25 instances of blatant prevarication from his favorite writer.

BTW, I once met an attorney friend of Bugliosi's in Dallas.  He sat me down and explained how he had talked to VInce about the book before it was published.  VInce had admitted to him that he had an agenda going in and it was to demonize and marginalize the critics as much as he could.  This from a guy who deliberately misrepresents the evidence 25 times in order to do so.  This is not writing and research.  Its having an agenda a mile wide to serve your own interests.

This is pure Machiavelli. And its from the horse's mouth. It makes not one iota of difference to DVP.  And if  that does not make any difference, then what does? If you agree with that, let us know so we understand in advance who you are and where you are coming from and that will save us a lot of time and trouble.

Edited August 16, 2022 by James DiEugenio