The (laughable) SBT

[Sean Coleman]

I could’ve sworn I saw a SBT posting yesterday-that has since vanished-and dug out this pic to post as a wordless rebuke. Since the posting is no more I’ll post the pic anyway, it’s pretty self explanatory.

I don’t know about you chaps but if ever I have to begin to explain the hilarity of the nonsense in the WR to a mildly interested person, I always lead with good ole CE399, the magic bullet…Arlen Specter’s SBT. Which was introduced as a plan B coz James Tague popped up!! What a swerve!

Edited September 25, 2022 by Sean Coleman

[Ron Ege]

2 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

I could’ve sworn I saw a SBT posting yesterday-that has since vanished-and dug out this pic to post as a wordless rebuke. Since the posting is no more I’ll post the pic anyway, it’s pretty self explanatory.

I don’t know about you chaps but if ever I have to begin to explain the hilarity of the nonsense in the WR to a mildly interested person, I always lead with good ole CE399, the magic bullet…Arlen Specter’s SBT. Which was introduced as a plan B coz James Tague popped up!! What a swerve!

Sean, thanks.

Have seen before - just not in the exact format you've presented.

Is it not amazingly explanatory how CE 399 and CE572 appear quite nearly the same?

Weren't there additional examples of rounds being fired through a goat's rib, with CE 583 selected as the one least affected?

If one were not convinced there was some "chicanery" afoot already, then CE 856 should remove all doubt.

Anyway, there is this.

Edgewood Arsenal Bullet Tests : The JFK Assassination (22november1963.org.uk)

We may hear from detractors.

[Ron Ege]

4 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

I could’ve sworn I saw a SBT posting yesterday-that has since vanished-and dug out this pic to post as a wordless rebuke. Since the posting is no more I’ll post the pic anyway, it’s pretty self explanatory.

I don’t know about you chaps but if ever I have to begin to explain the hilarity of the nonsense in the WR to a mildly interested person, I always lead with good ole CE399, the magic bullet…Arlen Specter’s SBT. Which was introduced as a plan B coz James Tague popped up!! What a swerve!

Sean,

Is this perhaps where you dug out the photograph?

Warren Commission Exhibit CE-399 - The Magic Bullet (jfk-info.com)

In another thread, "JFK Secret Service Agent: hole in windshield of limo!", there is a discussion about the "magic bullet's" 6.5 MM ammunition velocity dynamics, suggesting that its gradually reduced velocity, as it passed first through JFK, then through Connally's chest, striking his rib, before passing through his wrist could've accounted for the apparent minimal damage, i. e., the "pristine" appearance of the round.

If that's possible, I am looking forward to the discussion of how CE 572, being shot into cotton wadding and therefore, seemingly, not incurring the exact same gradual velocity reduction scenario, managed to look almost identical to CE 399.  

Perhaps one of the physicists among us will be able to share a "compare and contrast" study with us? 

 

[Sean Coleman]

2 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

Sean, thanks.

Have seen before - just not in the exact format you've presented.

Is it not amazingly explanatory how CE 399 and CE572 appear quite nearly the same?

Weren't there additional examples of rounds being fired through a goat's rib, with CE 583 selected as the one least affected?

If one were not convinced there was some "chicanery" afoot already, then CE 856 should remove all doubt.

Anyway, there is this.

Edgewood Arsenal Bullet Tests : The JFK Assassination (22november1963.org.uk)

We may hear from detractors.

The Edgewood link you share is a good in depth explanation as to the state of the pictured bullets, very interesting, you can’t argue with science……

 

[David Von Pein]

3 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

If one were not convinced there was some "chicanery" afoot already, then CE 856 should remove all doubt.

I wonder how many conspiracy theorists endorse Dr. Cyril Wecht when he continually goes on TV and radio and tries to sell his bucket of anti-SBT crap to the world, armed with his silly argument about the test bullet seen in Warren Commission Exhibit No. 856, with Wecht acting as though the CE856 test bullet took the very same path through TWO bodies that CE399 took through the bodies of JFK and John Connally in Dallas.

Conspiracy theorists can't (or won't) see that JFK and Governor Connally are reacting to their bullet wounds at the exact same time in the Zapruder Film clip below. No matter how many times the anti-SBTers watch this clip, they will never admit to themselves what they are obviously seeing--two men being hit by the same bullet:



And take note of Jackie Kennedy's reactions in the above Z-Film clip too. She kind of "springs" up in her seat and then puts both of her hands on JFK's left arm. But Jackie only STARTS TO REACT (as she moves her arms and her body toward JFK) AFTER Z226 or so.

But if we're to believe the HSCA's timing for the SBT, JFK was struck by a bullet back at about Z190. But Jackie doesn't react and try to aid her husband until after approximately Z226. Just a coincidence? Did Jackie have a "delayed reaction" too?

In reality, Jackie Kennedy's reactions (and her reaching out with both of her hands to aid her husband shortly after Z225) are reactions that are perfectly consistent with a bullet striking President Kennedy at around Z224. She is "reacting" at almost the exact same time as the two victims.

Here's a slow motion version:



IMO, Jackie's movements are somewhat difficult to explain and reconcile if JFK had been struck as early as Z190 or so. She doesn't move toward her injured husband until AFTER the men reappear from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign.

I suppose that could conceivably just be a coincidence (because we ARE only talking about 1.86 seconds in real time--between Z190 and Z224), but there's no question in my mind that Jackie Kennedy's movements and reactions as she MOVES TOWARD JFK after Z225-Z226 are certainly not INCONSISTENT with the SBT occurring at Z224.

In fact, the more I focus on JUST JACKIE in the above Zapruder Film clips, the more I think her reactions and movements fully buttress the "Z224 SBT Hit" even more solidly than ever.

David Von Pein
August 26, 2010
Revised September 13, 2015


 

Edited September 25, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

33 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

I wonder how many conspiracy theorists endorse Dr. Cyril Wecht when he continually goes on TV and radio and tries to sell his bucket of anti-SBT crap to the world, armed with his silly argument about the test bullet seen in Warren Commission Exhibit No. 856, with Wecht acting as though the CE856 test bullet took the very same path through TWO bodies that CE399 took through the bodies of JFK and John Connally in Dallas.

Conspiracy theorists can't (or won't) see that JFK and Governor Connally are reacting to their bullet wounds at the exact same time in the Zapruder Film clip below. No matter how many times the anti-SBTers watch this clip, they will never admit to themselves what they are obviously seeing--two men being hit by the same bullet:



And take note of Jackie Kennedy's reactions in the above Z-Film clip too. She kind of "springs" up in her seat and then puts both of her hands on JFK's left arm. But Jackie only STARTS TO REACT (as she moves her arms and her body toward JFK) AFTER Z226 or so.

But if we're to believe the HSCA's timing for the SBT, JFK was struck by a bullet back at about Z190. But Jackie doesn't react and try to aid her husband until after approximately Z226. Just a coincidence? Did Jackie have a "delayed reaction" too?

In reality, Jackie Kennedy's reactions (and her reaching out with both of her hands to aid her husband shortly after Z225) are reactions that are perfectly consistent with a bullet striking President Kennedy at around Z224. She is "reacting" at almost the exact same time as the two victims.

Here's a slow motion version:



IMO, Jackie's movements are somewhat difficult to explain and reconcile if JFK had been struck as early as Z190 or so. She doesn't move toward her injured husband until AFTER the men reappear from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign.

I suppose that could conceivably just be a coincidence (because we ARE only talking about 1.86 seconds in real time--between Z190 and Z224), but there's no question in my mind that Jackie Kennedy's movements and reactions as she MOVES TOWARD JFK after Z225-Z226 are certainly not INCONSISTENT with the SBT occurring at Z224.

In fact, the more I focus on JUST JACKIE in the above Zapruder Film clips, the more I think her reactions and movements fully buttress the "Z224 SBT Hit" even more solidly than ever.

David Von Pein
August 26, 2010
Revised September 13, 2015


 

Just stop. Jackie's reacting within a split second of Z-224 is clear evidence JFK was hit before then. Do some math. For the bullet to strike JFK at 224 means the bullet (assuming it was a high-velocity bullet) was fired around Z-222. And this means Jackie would not have heard the shot until Z-225 or so. Well, she had turned in her husband's direction well before this (which is why Myers cut her out of his cartoon) and she started reaching for him within a half-second or so of Z-224. If one assumes she reached towards him in response to the shot, then, it's clear, that he was shot before Z-224. It would take her brain a half second or so to recognize that the sound she heard was a shot, and another half-second or more to react. And yet, according to you, she reacted to a shot by reaching for her husband within a half-second. Nonsense. 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Mark Knight]

49 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

And take note of Jackie Kennedy's reactions in the above Z-Film clip too. She kind of "springs" up in her seat and then puts both of her hands on JFK's left arm. But Jackie only STARTS TO REACT (as she moves her arms and her body toward JFK) AFTER Z226 or so.

But if we're to believe the HSCA's timing for the SBT, JFK was struck by a bullet back at about Z190. But Jackie doesn't react and try to aid her husband until after approximately Z226. Just a coincidence? Did Jackie have a "delayed reaction" too?

In reality, Jackie Kennedy's reactions (and her reaching out with both of her hands to aid her husband shortly after Z225) are reactions that are perfectly consistent with a bullet striking President Kennedy at around Z224. She is "reacting" at almost the exact same time as the two victims.

Here's a slow motion version:



 

Frame 226 - frame 190 = 36 frames. At 18 frames per second, that's two seconds to react.

It's not as if Jackie was anticipating a gunshot at ANY time [as opposed to those of us viewing the film]. Taking TWO WHOLE SECONDS to react to an unexpected gunshot is NOT an unreasonable amount of time. Especially if Jackie had been facing the crowd on the LEFT side of the limo prior to the shot. 

DVP, I think you're making a TWO-SECOND reaction time out to be a bigger deal than it actually was. In fact, TWO SECONDS is TOTALLY reasonable when you have no idea what just happened [again, unlike those of us viewing the film, who KNOW what to expect].

I believe that a shot at frame 190, and s reaction two seconds later, isn't as ridiculous as you wish to make it.

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Mark Knight said:

I believe that a shot at frame 190, and reaction two seconds later, isn't as ridiculous as you wish to make it.

If JFK had been hit as early as Z190, we would not have him waiting until Z226 to jerk his arms upward toward his throat. No way. No how. If that arm movement was involuntary (and I certainly think it was involuntary), then such a reaction would be as immediate as humanly possible....which is precisely what we see in Z225-Z230. In a gunshot wound incident like this, a two-second delay is practically forever.

And when speaking about Jackie's reactions, I'll remind you that I did say this in my previous post regarding that matter....

"...we ARE only talking about 1.86 seconds in real time--between Z190 and Z224..."

Some related SBT talk....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-615.html

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Gerry Down]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I wonder how many conspiracy theorists endorse Dr. Cyril Wecht when he continually goes on TV and radio and tries to sell his bucket of anti-SBT crap to the world, armed with his silly argument about the test bullet seen in Warren Commission Exhibit No. 856, with Wecht acting as though the CE856 test bullet took the very same path through TWO bodies that CE399 took through the bodies of JFK and John Connally in Dallas.

Conspiracy theorists can't (or won't) see that JFK and Governor Connally are reacting to their bullet wounds at the exact same time in the Zapruder Film clip below. No matter how many times the anti-SBTers watch this clip, they will never admit to themselves what they are obviously seeing--two men being hit by the same bullet:



And take note of Jackie Kennedy's reactions in the above Z-Film clip too. She kind of "springs" up in her seat and then puts both of her hands on JFK's left arm. But Jackie only STARTS TO REACT (as she moves her arms and her body toward JFK) AFTER Z226 or so.

But if we're to believe the HSCA's timing for the SBT, JFK was struck by a bullet back at about Z190. But Jackie doesn't react and try to aid her husband until after approximately Z226. Just a coincidence? Did Jackie have a "delayed reaction" too?

In reality, Jackie Kennedy's reactions (and her reaching out with both of her hands to aid her husband shortly after Z225) are reactions that are perfectly consistent with a bullet striking President Kennedy at around Z224. She is "reacting" at almost the exact same time as the two victims.

Here's a slow motion version:



IMO, Jackie's movements are somewhat difficult to explain and reconcile if JFK had been struck as early as Z190 or so. She doesn't move toward her injured husband until AFTER the men reappear from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign.

I suppose that could conceivably just be a coincidence (because we ARE only talking about 1.86 seconds in real time--between Z190 and Z224), but there's no question in my mind that Jackie Kennedy's movements and reactions as she MOVES TOWARD JFK after Z225-Z226 are certainly not INCONSISTENT with the SBT occurring at Z224.

In fact, the more I focus on JUST JACKIE in the above Zapruder Film clips, the more I think her reactions and movements fully buttress the "Z224 SBT Hit" even more solidly than ever.

David Von Pein
August 26, 2010
Revised September 13, 2015


 

I agree.

But there is the issue regarding JFKs movements just before he goes behind the sign. JFK seems to raise his hands and make an odd facial expression. Maybe he was coughing, sneezing, or maybe he realized that that firecracker sound he just heard was not a firecracker but a rifle shot and his sudden odd expression before he goes behind the sign is a display of the realization that someone is shooting at them. I don't know.

In your years studying this case David, have you been able to come up with a theory to explain JFKs odd movement just before he goes behind the sign?

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Gerry Down

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

If JFK had been hit as early as Z190, we would not have him waiting until Z226 to jerk his arms upward toward his throat. No way. No how. If that arm movement was involuntary (and I certainly think it was involuntary), then such a reaction would be as immediate as humanly possible....which is precisely what we see in Z225-Z230. In a gunshot wound incident like this, a two-second delay is practically forever.

And when speaking about Jackie's reactions, I'll remind you that I did say this in my previous post regarding that matter....

"...we ARE only talking about 1.86 seconds in real time--between Z190 and Z224..."

Some related SBT talk....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-615.html

 

He first jerks to the left before he goes behind the sign in the film. Give credit where credit is due. The HSCA photography panel got it right. 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Bob Ness]

4 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Maybe he was coughing, sneezing, or maybe he realized that that firecracker sound he just heard was not a firecracker but a rifle shot and his sudden odd expression before he goes behind the sign is a display of the realization that someone is shooting at them. facial expression.

It's not likely he ever heard anything as the bullet was traveling in the neighborhood of 3 times the speed of sound. After all, it's not the movies. The bullet arrives before the report unless the shooter is using subsonic rounds. That would really screw things up because that would mean one of the shooters was using a silencer hahaha.

I personally go with what Connelly said which if I recall correctly was that he was hit by a second bullet and his wife claimed the same thing. Kennedy's hit, whether before or after the Stemmons sign was the initial hit and Connelly HEARD that but was wounded AFTER the first shot. Connelly would not likely have heard a round hitting them both simultaneously although I suppose that's on the very outer fringe of possibility. He and his wife were there at the time (which seems to get forgotten) and are pretty good witnesses I'd think.

The WC can do all the mental gymnastics and chalk talk they want but the most likely explanation for the wounds is NOT the SBT. Nice try though.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Bob Ness

[Sandy Larsen]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I wonder how many conspiracy theorists endorse Dr. Cyril Wecht when he continually goes on TV and radio and tries to sell his bucket of anti-SBT crap to the world, armed with his silly argument about the test bullet seen in Warren Commission Exhibit No. 856, with Wecht acting as though the CE856 test bullet took the very same path through TWO bodies that CE399 took through the bodies of JFK and John Connally in Dallas.

Conspiracy theorists can't (or won't) see that JFK and Governor Connally are reacting to their bullet wounds at the exact same time in the Zapruder Film clip below. No matter how many times the anti-SBTers watch this clip, they will never admit to themselves what they are obviously seeing--two men being hit by the same bullet:



And take note of Jackie Kennedy's reactions in the above Z-Film clip too. She kind of "springs" up in her seat and then puts both of her hands on JFK's left arm. But Jackie only STARTS TO REACT (as she moves her arms and her body toward JFK) AFTER Z226 or so.

But if we're to believe the HSCA's timing for the SBT, JFK was struck by a bullet back at about Z190. But Jackie doesn't react and try to aid her husband until after approximately Z226. Just a coincidence? Did Jackie have a "delayed reaction" too?

In reality, Jackie Kennedy's reactions (and her reaching out with both of her hands to aid her husband shortly after Z225) are reactions that are perfectly consistent with a bullet striking President Kennedy at around Z224. She is "reacting" at almost the exact same time as the two victims.

Here's a slow motion version:



IMO, Jackie's movements are somewhat difficult to explain and reconcile if JFK had been struck as early as Z190 or so. She doesn't move toward her injured husband until AFTER the men reappear from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign.

I suppose that could conceivably just be a coincidence (because we ARE only talking about 1.86 seconds in real time--between Z190 and Z224), but there's no question in my mind that Jackie Kennedy's movements and reactions as she MOVES TOWARD JFK after Z225-Z226 are certainly not INCONSISTENT with the SBT occurring at Z224.

In fact, the more I focus on JUST JACKIE in the above Zapruder Film clips, the more I think her reactions and movements fully buttress the "Z224 SBT Hit" even more solidly than ever.

David Von Pein
August 26, 2010
Revised September 13, 2015


 

 

I don't think Connally is reacting at all. It's an illusion.

There's only one frame where Connally appears to jerk, and that is 227. Look closely at the frame and you will see that it was the camera that jerked. Compare the size of Jackie's hat to that in the previous frame, 226, and you will see how much the image is smeared by the jerk.

At the same time Connally began to raise his hat, and its sudden appearance adds to the jerking illusion.

And then after that, Connally is fine. He turns around and says something to Kennedy.

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

Here we go again, huh?

It's just as I remembered of Conally's account. He heard a shot, and said he turned to his left, (though he meant to his right) to look at the President ("who said nothing") "and almost simultaneously as I turned I was hit". That seems very consistent with Dave's clip. . To think he was hit by the same bullet, you have to assume a good lapse of time before Connally was hit and cognitive of being hit, as he has the presence of mind to turn around and be concerned for the President, but then on top of that,  as Bob points out, that lapse of time is even greater because if Connally was struck by the same bullet. He still was most likely  struck before he even heard the shot.

0n 1:20.

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Bob Ness said:

It's not likely he ever heard anything as the bullet was traveling in the neighborhood of 3 times the speed of sound. After all, it's not the movies. The bullet arrives before the report unless the shooter is using subsonic rounds. That would really screw things up because that would mean one of the shooters was using a silencer hahaha.

I personally go with what Connelly said which if I recall correctly was that he was hit by a second bullet and his wife claimed the same thing. Kennedy's hit, whether before or after the Stemmons sign was the initial hit and Connelly HEARD that but was wounded AFTER the first shot. Connelly would not likely have heard a round hitting them both simultaneously although I suppose that's on the very outer fringe of possibility. He and his wife were there at the time (which seems to get forgotten) and are pretty good witnesses I'd think.

The WC can do all the mental gymnastics and chalk talk they want but the most likely explanation for the wounds is NOT the SBT. Nice try though.

What I meant was that JFK had heard the same shot as Connolly heard several seconds prior to going behind the sign. But that while JFK brushed it off as a firecracker and continued waving to the crowd, just before he goes behind the sign he realizes it was foolish to brush it off and realizes that indeed it was a shot. I was suggesting that this sudden realization is what caused JFK to then make the odd movement we see just before he goes behind the sign.

[Bob Ness]

6 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Here we go again, huh?

Yeah. This isn't even controversial. A person shot with a round traveling 1800 feet per second is hit before the report can reach their ears at 1125 feet per second. Even accounting for the bullet being slowed going through tissue. To my knowledge Connelly never changed his position on this. I've checked this with a friend of mine who was shot six times. A person doesn't hear the round that hits them, even the sonic boom of the round traveling through air. I suppose if they remain conscious subsequent rounds could be heard but Connelly specifically nixed that possibility.