The (laughable) SBT

[Sean Coleman]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Sean,

The Warren Commission definitely was NOT forcing itself into accepting the Single-Bullet Theory at all costs due to the existence of James Tague. How do we know what I just said is true? Because of Page #117 of the Warren Report itself, which states quite clearly and directly that the Commission was readily acknowledging the possibility that the damage to the Main Street curb (and, hence, the wounding of bystander James T. Tague) could have very well been caused by a fragment from the HEAD SHOT.

Therefore, via a possible scenario of Tague being wounded by a head-shot fragment, the SBT is not a MANDATORY conclusion to reach to still arrive at a final conclusion of Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone.

I, myself, DO think that the SBT is mandatory in order for Oswald to be the lone assassin of President Kennedy. But the Warren Commission's collective opinion was not as strict and restrictive as my own on the SBT matter....and Page 117 of the Warren Report (seen below) proves that fact.

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Related Link:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / The "5.6 Seconds" Myth

 

Dave, you’re quoting the bible to an atheist 

[David Von Pein]

18 minutes ago, Sean Coleman said:

Dave, you’re quoting the bible to an atheist 

Oh yes, I know that. That's a given. If I ever come across a conspiracy theorist who believes more than two words of the 888-page Warren Report, I'll faint dead away from the shock. But my last response to you was mainly to correct this wholly inaccurate statement you made at 11:39 AM EDT today....

"...one of the bullets was found to have missed completely and injured J. Tague." -- S. Coleman

But, given your above "bible/atheist" analogy, I guess you must think the WC was lying (yet again) on Page 117 of their Final Report.

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

Arlen Specter - originally a Democrat, he changed affiliation to become a Republican in the 60’s….to change back to a Democrat in 2009…a reliable guy then….
 He also dreamt up the SBT as one of the bullets was found to have missed completely and injured J.Tague. Phew! I bet he sweated when JT came forward. Still, plan B’s always come in handy. 

Any more fun facts related to this stalwart of a lawyer (I think that’s how you pronounce it…)?

 

 

I did a ton of research on Specter, and what I found wasn't pretty. In the 1960's he both viewed the back wound photos and told the media that if the back wound turned out to be a back wound and not a back of the neck wound, then the autopsy doctors should be arrested for perjury.

A decade later, of course, the HSCA released drawings proving it was on the back, and not the back of the neck. 

So how did Specter handle this? Did he insist Humes and Boswell be arrested? 

No, of course not. He'd arranged for his son to be an assistant on the committee and was alerted to what was coming down. When asked to testify he then lawyered up. (If I recall he and Gerry Ford were the only former WC members and staff to lawyer up for their testimony.) He then perjured himself by denying that he saw the photos proving the wound was on the back before publishing the drawings showing it to be on the back of the neck. 

 

 

[Sean Coleman]

27 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Oh yes, I know that. That's a given. If I ever come across a conspiracy theorist who believes more than two words of the 888-page Warren Report, I'll faint dead away from the shock. But my last response to you was mainly to correct this wholly inaccurate statement you made at 11:39 AM EDT today....

"...one of the bullets was found to have missed completely and injured J. Tague." -- S. Coleman

But, given your above "bible/atheist" analogy, I guess you must think the WC was lying (yet again) on Page 117 of their Final Report.

 

Apologies, my want to be simplistic can be misleading.
“….one of the bullets was found to miss completely (ricochet off the curb,) and injure J.Tague.”

BUT….we all knew that.

 

[Mark Knight]

So it comes out that DVP believes that John and Nellie Connally were both being untruthful in their testimony.

Because if they were being truthful, that would blow the SBT out of the water.

So that leaves us with only one conclusion.

[David Von Pein]

21 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

So it comes out that DVP believes that John and Nellie Connally were both being untruthful in their testimony.

I hope your utilization of the word "untruthful" doesn't mean you think that I think that either John Connally or Nellie Connally were lying when they always insisted that the SBT was not correct. Because I do not think that either of the Connallys were "lying" about anything.

If by "untruthful" you mean "incorrect".....then yes, they were both incorrect about their anti-SBT opinions (IMO). But they certainly weren't deliberately telling lies about anything. They each truly thought that the SBT was not a correct scenario. And they were wrong.*

* IMHO.

Edited September 26, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Joe Bauer]

What happened to the bullet found on the stretcher?

Versus the bullet that was removed from Connally's thigh?

[David Von Pein]

39 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

What happened to the bullet found on the stretcher?

Versus the bullet that was removed from Connally's thigh?

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28179-the-laughable-sbt/?do=findComment&comment=472801

 

[Bob Ness]

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

.....then yes, they were both incorrect about their anti-SBT opinions (IMO). But they certainly weren't deliberately telling lies about anything. They each truly thought that the SBT was not a correct scenario. And they were wrong.*

* IMHO.

And this is my point. Myer's laudable effort to recreate the event using 3D technology introduces too many variables to dismiss contemporaneous first-hand testimony from people who were there and not only witnessed it but were affected also. 

I've been in television and film post-production for 30 years including significant experience in 3D character animation, rendering, mapping, modeling, GIS modeling and just about every element of the production process. I have experience using every software suite imaginable (scientific as well as from the film industry) and have even done a little crime scene recreation. 

A slight variation in the angle of trajectory at the source would introduce a large variance on the other end - I'm not familiar enough with the effort to know how they may have accounted for that. A fractional difference in the elevation of the source and/or target would do the same.

There is only one animation that I'm familiar with that could reduce those variations which I attempted years ago on a whim in response to a Cliff Varnell post. That is to compare the entry into the clothing with the defect into JFK's back (described by the original WR as the neck). Even at a distance from the shooter, the projectile would enter within a maximum of about 1/2" of variation which at the proposed angle from the depository and JFK's position doesn't account for the trajectory of the bullet and Specter's proposed solution. Combine that with an incomplete autopsy which apparently didn't include information on the path of the bullet through his body and it deforms the "expert" testimony to such a degree it's rendered useless.

IOW nobody has the information available to confirm much which leads me to consider the Connelly's testimony the most reliable of all. Any gymnastics such as what the WC engaged in smells more like charades than an honest effort to determine how the President was assassinated and by whom. It wouldn't have been hard to conclude Oswald had done it if indeed that was the case. The sloppy nature of the after-action events such as the bungled autopsy, missing evidence, ignoring of potentially exculpatory witnesses and on and on weighs against them. Don't believe that? How did they let LHO get shot in a police station? That should remedy any objection to that argument.

I'd also add that Texas in the 50's and 60's wasn't a bastion of progressive thought and fair dealing and the people lynching blacks and bombing churches were alive and well at that time in the south. The Birchers and Minutemen were a significant part of everyday life in those days (my parents lived there for a time) and conspiracies and murders weren't out of the playbook, especially considering the PTSD addled veterans of World Wars 1 and 2.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Bob Ness

[Benjamin Cole]

https://www.tsl.texas.gov/sites/default/files/public/tslac/landing/documents/jfk-damaged-clothing18.pdf

If you go to this link, then to "shirt back, right shoulder" you will see a photograph of the small round hole in the rear of JBC's shirt worn on 11/22.

This hole in the rear of JBC's shirt was legitimately enlarged a little by authorities, to remove cloth for testing. 

The hole measured 3/8ths by 3/8ths inch, after enlargement. 

The Mannlicher Carcano Western ammo slug is a little more than 1/4 inch round. 

Ergo, the slug could not have been "tumbling" when it struck JBC.

Illustrations showing the bullet striking JBC flatside are simply incorrect. 

JBC's surgeon, Robert Shaw, who had operated on literally hundreds of bullet wound patients in WWII, testified he suspected a straight shot to JBC. 

JBC's back wound was "debrided" or dead tissue removed, which enlarged the scar area. 

The real reason not to accept the SBT is that JBC does a 180-degree turn in his seat after JFK has been struck in the throat.

The SBT'ers posit that JBC, shot through the chest with a near-mortal wound, then turned around to look for JFK. 

JBC also testified he was pushed forward by the blow to his back. 

Lining up JBC's testimony with the Z film, we see JBC pushed forward after Z-295.

JFK is shot at Z-313. The Z film runs at 18 frames a second. The math is clear. 

Ergo, there is not enough time for both shots to have been issued from a single-shot bolt action rifle. 

This seems dispositive to me.

It does not exonerate LHO. 

But there had to have been a second gunman, or one gunman armed with a semi-automatic, on 11/22. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[Chris Bristow]

15 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

It has been demonstrated that a high-velocity bullet striking flesh (and no bone) can be slowed to a point where it can pass through two men and emerge largely unscathed. When CTs claim that it could not, they are both misrepresenting the facts, and playing into the hands of those claiming CE 399 was such a bullet. 

No, the problem isn't that a high-velocity bullet could not hit two men and emerge looking like CE 399, the problem is that the tests performed for the WC demonstrated that a bullet traveling at full velocity could not create the wounds attributed to CE 399 without receiving more damage.

Connally's wounds were especially problematic. If CE 399 struck JFK at full velocity, and did not hit bone, as presumed by the WC, it would have struck Connally's rib at a velocity far beyond the velocity at which the bullet would deform...IOW, the bullet would have been badly deformed. But even if one should hand-wave that problem away, there is a similar problem with the wrist wound and thigh wound. The tests performed for the WC showed that the bullet striking Connally's wrist and thigh would also have to have been traveling at a greatly reduced velocity.

So perhaps the bullet was traveling at a greatly reduced velocity, then. Well, this creates a different problem. When one reverse engineers the approximate velocity lost in each wound back to a source behind Kennedy, one finds that the bullet would have to have been traveling at a subsonic velocity to do the damage attributed to it without suffering more deformation. And this suggests a plot involving a trained assassin, and not Little Bo Oswald. 

I've never heard of the CT claim you mentioned in the first paragraph. I am only speaking about the results of a bullet striking bone, although the Myers test on the stack of pine confirms a bullet can spend all of its energy striking something as hard as Pine and not be deformed. 

Your summary of the SBT issue regarding velocity, bone density and bullet deformation is the problem on many people's minds. I think repeating the tests that Joseph Dolce carried out with emphasis on the lower velocity bone strikes and done in a fully transparent manner may put  the ce399  theory to bed.

 

[Ron Bulman]

Well in all this chatter no one has mentioned that CE399 is not the pointy nosed bullet (as opposed to the magic pristine round nosed one in evidence) identified by former cop O P Wright, security officer at Parkland on 11/22/63.  As found on the cart of a young boy who needed stiches from stepping on a broken coke bottle in his driveway. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[Chris Bristow]

The path of the bullet shown in most all diagrams has it moving on a straight path through Connally to his leg. I think it is represented this way because any deflection off bone would make it harder to justify the near pristine state of CE399.
 The entry and exit location on Connally's torso shows the bullet must have deflected by approx 20 degrees. It's is generally agreed he was turned about 30 degrees to his right as he emerged from the Stemmons sign, Add another 10 degrees lateral angle from the the 6th floor window and the track through J.C. would have been 40 degrees. That trajectory is shown by the red arrow below(I put it at 35 degrees to err on the side of caution).
 The downward angle of 28 degrees created a track of about 13 inches front to back.(That 13 inch measurement is not accurately reflected by the over head view because the overhead can't show the downward angle of 28 degrees which lengthens the track by about  30%).
The lateral angle of 35 degrees adds another 3 inches to the length of the bullet track. I'll call the track 15 inches in total to be extra cautious.
  The lateral 35 degree track moves across the torso at .67 inches for every inch the bullet travels.  That means a 15 inch bullet track will move 10 inches laterally to the left before it exits. If the bullet traveled straight with no deflection it should have exited J.C. at the center line of his body.
 The face sheet shows only about 2.5 inches lateral travel from entry to exit. The vertical drop of a 15 inch track should be about 8 inches but the vertical drop on J.C. is only 4 inches.
 It seems the bullet must have deflected by approx 20 degrees as it passed through J.C.
Even if it deflected and followed a track closer to the amber line it would have hit the rib at a fairly steep angle instead of traveling along the rib and taking out 4 inches of it. For the bullet to travel along the rib it would have to change direction twice or maybe take a curved path.
 Finally a straight line trajectory lands in J.C's leg but if the bullet deflected as the entry and exit wound suggest, the bullet may have had to deflect again as it passed through the wrist.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Chris Bristow

[Joe Bauer]

15 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

The answer is "Yes" to both of your questions. Same bullet. It lodged only temporarily in Connally's thigh, then fell out onto the stretcher where it was recovered by Darrell C. Tomlinson in a corridor at Parkland. But that bullet (CE399) wasn't really "pristine" at all. It's been flattened on one side and the base of the bullet is damaged (i.e., oozing lead). So the "pristine" description of CE399 is a complete myth.

Dr. Robert Shaw (Chief Of Thoracic Surgery) at Parkland never stated that the bullet that went into Connally's thigh fell out and was found on a stretcher in his national news interview on 11,22,1963.

I would think he would have mentioned that the thigh bullet dislodged itself so they didn't have to remove it.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Dave Chrisman]

18 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

The answer is "Yes" to both of your questions. Same bullet. It lodged only temporarily in Connally's thigh, then fell out onto the stretcher where it was recovered by Darrell C. Tomlinson in a corridor at Parkland. But that bullet (CE399) wasn't really "pristine" at all. It's been flattened on one side and the base of the bullet is damaged (i.e., oozing lead). So the "pristine" description of CE399 is a complete myth.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#CE399

 

Thank you Vince Palamara for making these available on your channel.