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Did the "Big Fish" know


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(Jack wrote:) LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD BECAUSE the motorcade would go down Elm.

(Bob wrote: Jack:

I would appreciate having your theory of HOW "LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD." ...

Jack and Tim:

Thanks for the discussion, but my question, as quoted above, has to do with HOW Oswald was placed at the TSBD, and, more specifically, how Linnie Mae Randall fit in that chain of events.

I apparently wasn't clear in forming my question. I'll try again, because without an answer it is very difficult to support Jack's statement that "LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD..."

Even though it's an unpleasant thing to admit, I've had to crack open Jerry Posner's "Case Closed" to find the Nutters' explanation of the string of events leading to Oswald's employment at the TSBD. Allow me to hold my nose and quote from page 200:

"On Monday, October 14 [1963]...while having coffee...Ruth, Marina, Dorothy Roberts and Linnie Mae Randle were discussing Lee's difficulty in obtaining work. ... Linnie Mae Randall recalled that Wesley Buell Frazier, her younger brother...had finally found a job at the Texas School Book Depository... [Quoting Randall:] 'We said he might try over there. There might be work...'" Posner then tells us that, as a result of that suggestion by Linnie Mae, Marina urged Paine to call Truly, Paine then called Truly, and Truly said, "I told Mrs. Paine to send him down...we could possibly use him for a brief time.'

This rendition of events was, Posner says, constructed from direct testimony of Paine, Truly and Randall to the Warren Commission.

For purposes of this discussion, let's assume Paine was lying. Let's assume Roy Truly was lying. Let's even assume there were two Lee-Lee Harvey-Harvey Oswald-Oswalds. Let's assume that Marina was not forthcoming. Let's even assume Lee and Ruth are shacked up under a palm tree, sipping iced Metamucil and laughing at us.

My question remains: Was it Linnie Mae Randall's suggestion that started the string of events leading to the employment of Oswald at the TSBD? If so, how does that casual remark by an Irving housewife fit into a plan to place Oswald in a job in the precise location that allowed him to become the patsy? Was Linnie Mae part of the conspiracy, too? If so, how'd she fit in? Or was she also lying to the Warren Commission? If so, why? Or is there another explanation?

Without another part to the equation, I can't see that Linnie Mae's casual remark, based on her brother's new job, squares with a plot to get Lee-Lee Harvey-Harvey a job in the TSBD. What am I missing?

Bob

I can give you one reason why, Bob. Her brother was arrested on 11/22/63, the police took his enfield .303, along with his ammunition, and placed it into storage to be used as evidence.

Come to think of it, I have yet to come across a document which details where and how the rifle was obtained from Mr. Frazier.

I do know that he was reported, by his sister, to have been at Parkland hospital visiting their stepdad. I wonder about that little bit of information a lot even though the official line has it that the Stepdad was found to be at another medical center, where Mr. frazier was contacted and placed under arrest.

With the murder weapon being described, at one point, as an Enfield .303...I don't have any doubt in my mind how the Randalls were convinced to join in the "Oswald did it" club.

Chuck

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The movement and time question surrounding the Tippit murder is a bit murky and allows for speculation about what is or is not the truth. There are conflicting eye witnesses' that have Oswald moveing in different directions on different streets, as I recall, creating two conflicting courses that Oswald may have taken to the movie theater. One course allows him to arrive at the Tippit murder scene in time to commit the crime and one does not.

The most glaring error made in the reconstruction you mention, is huge, to say the least.

Tippit's time of death, according to the pronouncing Dr., was 1:15 p.m. that day. This time of death is after

the following have been accomplished; first you have ambulance response to the victim time, then there is

ambulance to hospital transport time, and, finally, and very importantly, is the Dr. checking vital signs at the

time a victim is pronounced deceased.

We have all seen the shows where the Dr. verifies the time of death by asking nurses for the time as he is

writing the time on the hospital form. I believe that this is an actual practice, for legal reasons, designed to

obtain a witnessed time of death should problems arise after the fact.

To blindly accept the statement of Tippit being shot, by Oswald, at 1:18, even though he had already been

dead, officially, for 3 minutes by that time, is just one more way that people are suckered by those who

make a living by first telling, and then selling, lies to what is largely an ignorant population.

We Americans are, I am sad to say, without a doubt, the most gullible people on the face of this planet.

It is time to stop letting others decide what we should think.

Take time to go a little deeper than the glossy packaging.

Take special care to avoid those who have been hired to convince you how mistaken your beliefs are.

Take whatever evidence that you, from all of the mountains of evidence available, determine is worth taking

into consideration and come to your own decision of what is, or is not, possible.

It is important that we no longer allow people to continue using provably wrong data which they have labeled

as "facts".

With no other point of view, which would be provided by persons disparagingly referred to as "conspiracy

theorists", i.e. "lunatic fringe", included in these programs, the agenda is plain to see.

These programs ought not to be packaged and sold as "History lessons". :(

What they are, in fact, is nothing more than a lesson in rewriting history. :unsure:

For instance: In the DPD archive records are the depositions of the Davis sisters-in-law. Their statements

reflect two shell casings they found that day which they then gave to Dallas Officers.

In another report, from an Officer this time, is the statement that Domingo Benevides handed three shell

casings, in some form of wrapping, possibly a cigarette cellophane, saying these were from the bullets which

killed Tippit.

This makes a total of five shell casings, of different manufacturers, supposedly used by Oswald to shoot

Tippit four times? Hmmm??? :huh:

Coincidentally, Ruby, when arrested for killing Oswald, had a similar variety of bullets in his possession.

Chuck

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Since I started this thread with information that was provided by FBI Agent Hosty (and it has been brought back up again), I think that it is important to recall what Hosty said in his testimony about why the FBI was actively monitoring Oswald's movements before he was hired at the TSBD.

It seems that sometime after April 21st Hosty received a FBI memo stating that confidential informant T-2 had provided information that Oswald was distributing Pro Castro leaflets on the streets of Dallas. Because of this information Oswald's case file was to be reopened and his movements tracked from that moment on.

From the Record:

Mr. STERN. If you will look at page 2 of the report we have marked for identification No. 829

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. The last paragraph on that page relates--well, tell us what information that refers to.

Mr. HOSTY. It says, "On April 21, 1963, Dallas confidential informant T-2 advised that Lee H. Oswald of Dallas, Tex, was in contact with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York City at which time he advised that he passed out pamphlets for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. According to T-2, Oswald had a placard around his neck reading, 'Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel.'"

Mr. STERN. Did you attempt to verify that information?

Mr. HOSTY. When I got it, it was approximately 6 or 7 weeks old, past the date it allegedly took place, and we had received no information to the effect that anyone had been in the downtown streets of Dallas or anywhere in Dallas with a sign around their neck saying "Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel." It appeared highly unlikely to me that such an occurrence could have happened in Dallas without having been brought to our attention. So by the time I got it, it was, you might say, stale information and we did not attempt to verify it.

Mr. STERN. When you record this as something that an informant advised about on April 21, that doesn't mean he advised you or the Dallas office on April 21?

Mr. HOSTY. That is right.

Mr. STERN. Did this information come from another part of the FBI?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; it came from the New York office of the FBI. They were advised on the 21st of April.

Mr. STERN. But the information didn't get to you until some time after?

Mr. HOSTY. In June, I believe.

Mr. STERN. Did you have any information apart from this that there was an organization active in the Dallas area called, "The Fair Play for Cuba Committee"?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; we had no information of any organization by that name.

Mr. STERN. Had you at this time ever heard of such an organization?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. STERN. In what connection?

Mr. HOSTY. The New York office had advised all offices of the FBI to be on the alert for the possible formation of chapters of this organization which was headquartered in New York.

Mr. STERN. Had you investigated the Dallas area in that connection?

Mr. HOSTY. We had checked our sources, I had and other agents assigned to the internal security division had checked sources. We were on the alert for it.

Mr. STERN. And you found what?

Mr. HOSTY. We found no evidence that there was any such organization in Dallas.

Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed this report marked for identification No. 829, Mr. Hosty?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. STERN. In connection with your preparation for testimony today?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is there any change you would like to make in anything set forth in it?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I wish it to stand as it reads.

Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

I like to point out that this information (from the New York Office) suddenly came in 11 days after the assassination attempt on the life of General Walker.

In Hosty's testimony he states that he could not verify and that he doubted the information about Oswald's Pro Castro activities on the streets of Dallas because nothing had been reported.

Yet based upon this information two things occurred:

1) Oswald's movements were monitored (including his move to New Orleans and return to Dallas.

2) The location of where Oswald was working (TSBD) was reported to Washington before President Kennedy's motorcade route was established.

The third thing that I find intriguing about the "new" monitoring of Oswald's movements is that the information about Oswald's Pro Castro activities, while not varifiable before April 21, 1963 by agent Hosty would become true at a later date.

Did the same people that tipped the FBI off about these activities on April 21st, 1963 know that they could influence Oswald's New Orleans activities at a future date.

Let's look at the timeline.

Information from the FBI dated April 21, 1963 is provided to Agent Hosty sometime in June.

April 24th Oswald leaves for New Orleans.

May 26th Oswald writes to the Fair Play For Cuba Comm.

May 29th Oswald orders 1000 handbills for the FPCC

June 3rd Oswald opens a PO Box in the name of A. J. Hidell

(Hosty receives information about Oswalds activities in Dallas in June)

June 16th Oswald distributes FPCC leaflets at Dumaine St. Wharf

Throughout August, 1963 The Bringuier incidents begin that lead to a radio debate on August 21st

It seems to me that someone (The Big Fish?) knew what Oswald was going to do before he did it (

at least in this incident)!

Jim Root

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It seems to me that someone (The Big Fish?) knew what Oswald was going to do before he did it (

at least in this incident)!

Jim Root

Jim, in scouring the Mississippi Sovereignty files I have learnt that they were monitoring the FPCC since 1961. A network of intelligence agencies in about 14 states shared information. They particularly monitored movements of anyone on their lists who moved in and out of NO as this was a major staging point for the Freedom Riders.

NO appears to have been a headquarters where under the head of the LSC a lot of organisational decicions were formulated.

Not only did they have the state intelligence organistations providing/gathering information, there were a number of private detective agencies providing information. Bannister is recommended as such to the MSC in early 64' this means that the person recommending him had reason to do so prior to early '64.

____________

Harvey Henderson and Robert Lilley of the pres detail may have been feeding info as well.

There is a report of HH providing detailed service records of a person of interest(to the MSC) from the SS office in the Jackson PO in 1970.

Which brings me to my perennial favorite neglected research angle, the Postal Inspection Service of the USPO, the oldest intelligence gathering agency of the US government, that frequently had its Agents doubling as FBI informants. All mail potentially passed through their hands and personms marked as persons of interest would have their movements monitored. Harry Holmes in Dallas was the T7 informant.

It gets a little more complicated when one takes into account the reporting he did to his superiors in Washington, who in turn reported to the CIA. Harry effectively was a hop and skip away from Dulles, and on intimate terms with Dallas FBI. As well as being close to Fritz.

Which brings in the Police departments as sources/investigators. Col Birdsong of the Miss Highway Patrol was aware of the FPCC and were monitoring/receiving/sharing info. He may have been acting as an agent of the supposedly dormant Mississippi Bureau of Intelligence.

_______________

Lee had a subscription to Time which he filed change of address forms for.

_______________

There was also the KFB to consider, simply because as the intelligence arm of the KKK they had connections throughout society.

_______________

Perhaps the question shoud be : which of the Big Fish definitely DIDN'T know?

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  • 7 months later...
  • 7 months later...
Robert, we've also turned up a document which states that Oswald applied for a job at the Devilbiss Company in the general area of the Trade Mart after he was employed at the TSBD. There is no specific date on hisjob application but Dallas Eyewitness news investigated and were told that Oswald had been there about two weeks before the assassination. I'd say someone was covering all the bases. The application was picked up by the FBI but not specifically mentioned in its report on Oswald's job searches.

-- Larry

Hi Larry,

The application is mentioned in CE2444. Having looked into this a few years ago, and despite being unable to find the actual application, I concluded that Oswald almost certainly applied for the job in person inToledo. I based that on the fact that Toledo is the location mentioned in the FBI document, inquiries led me to believe Devilbiss had no presence in Dallas (or NO), and a portion of the application was completed (according to the FBI) by someone other than Oswald - indicating the application had been reviewed by either an employment agency - or more likely, imo, whoever did the hiring and firing at Devilbiss.

I take it the information I got back then was wrong? Do you have a copy of the application?

What interested me back then was that Devilbiss was closely associated with Rand, and made similar products - including the type of spray gun Webster was hawking to the Soviets. And Toledo (location of Devilbiss HQ) is not very far at all from Webster's home town.

Of course, if they also had premises near the trade mart... that also seems very significant.

Sorry for such a late post but I have only just started reading this thread.

For Greg, DeVilbiss Co. opened their doors in Dallas in 1949 and were located at 1515 Dragon. In 1956, they moved to 2468 Irving Boulevard.

For Steve Thomas, Lone Star Cadillac was located at 2301 Ross.

FWIW.

James

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Hi Chuck,

I had some contact with RHP in 2005 and asked her that very question:

How was the idea of getting Lee a job at the Texas School Book Depository conceived? I’ve heard it suggested that it was it Linnie Mae Randle's idea, but in reading her testimony to the Warren Commission, it’s kind of unclear:

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because I didn't know there was a job open. The reason that we were being helpful, Wesley had just looked for a job, and I had helped him to try to find one. We listed several places that he might go to look for work.

Mr. BALL. And then you also mentioned the Texas Book Depository?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I didn't know there was a job opening over there.

Mr. BALL. But did you mention it?

Mrs. RANDLE. But we said he might try over there. There might be work over there because it was the busy season but I didn't have any previous knowledge that there was any job opening.

Can you clarify who exactly was the driving force behind Lee’s seeking employment at the TSBD? Was there anyone else who, in your opinion, expressed an interest in getting Lee a job there?

Ruth's answer:

"Linnie Mae mentioned that the School Book Depository might be hiring. Marina asked me (when we got back from Roberts (sic) house where the conversation over coffee took place) to call the TSBD to see if there was an opening. I asked for the personnel department. Talked to Mr. Truly who did not say if there was an opening but suggested the young man I described come by the office."

Edited by Greg Wagner
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Robert, we've also turned up a document which states that Oswald applied for a job at the Devilbiss Company in the general area of the Trade Mart after he was employed at the TSBD. There is no specific date on hisjob application but Dallas Eyewitness news investigated and were told that Oswald had been there about two weeks before the assassination. I'd say someone was covering all the bases. The application was picked up by the FBI but not specifically mentioned in its report on Oswald's job searches.

-- Larry

Hi Larry,

The application is mentioned in CE2444. Having looked into this a few years ago, and despite being unable to find the actual application, I concluded that Oswald almost certainly applied for the job in person inToledo. I based that on the fact that Toledo is the location mentioned in the FBI document, inquiries led me to believe Devilbiss had no presence in Dallas (or NO), and a portion of the application was completed (according to the FBI) by someone other than Oswald - indicating the application had been reviewed by either an employment agency - or more likely, imo, whoever did the hiring and firing at Devilbiss.

I take it the information I got back then was wrong? Do you have a copy of the application?

What interested me back then was that Devilbiss was closely associated with Rand, and made similar products - including the type of spray gun Webster was hawking to the Soviets. And Toledo (location of Devilbiss HQ) is not very far at all from Webster's home town.

Of course, if they also had premises near the trade mart... that also seems very significant.

Sorry for such a late post but I have only just started reading this thread.

For Greg, DeVilbiss Co. opened their doors in Dallas in 1949 and were located at 1515 Dragon. In 1956, they moved to 2468 Irving Boulevard.

For Steve Thomas, Lone Star Cadillac was located at 2301 Ross.

FWIW.

James

Hi James,

I looked into this for a while last year, but really didn't get anywhere. I've got some contacts in Toledo (being from there, originally) still trying to locate a couple old timers that worked for Devilbiss.

I wonder if Toledo could have been a potential LHO/patsy staging ground for a Chicago assassination, like New Orleans was for Dallas?

It would be interesting to know more about who/what suggested Toledo as a source of employment to Oswald. I asked Ruth Paine that question a couple years ago, but she denied any knowledge of Oswald ever being in, or ever mentioning, T-town.

Edited by Greg Wagner
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Hi Greg,

Nice to see you posting again.

Given that DeVilbiss had a presence in Dallas, I guess LHO didn't need to go to Ohio. There was a man employed by DeVilbiss named William Spruce who I believe was the regional sales manager. I believe he might hold a clue as there is some suggestions that he was known to the Paines.

Unfortunately, Spruce died in 1969.

James

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Hi Greg,

Nice to see you posting again.

Given that DeVilbiss had a presence in Dallas, I guess LHO didn't need to go to Ohio. There was a man employed by DeVilbiss named William Spruce who I believe was the regional sales manager. I believe he might hold a clue as there is some suggestions that he was known to the Paines.

Unfortunately, Spruce died in 1969.

James

Good to talk to you again James. It's been a while. You're right about the Devilbiss presence in Dallas and that Ohio would not necessarily have played a role. The potential attempt in Chicago got me thinking about the possibilities around that Devilbiss application. Just brainstorming really.

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Good to hear from Greg Wagner again.

Jim Root is the one closest to my thinking on this.........

He captures the essence of the Walker / MI intrigues in Dallas,

which to me are even more compelling than a CIA action........

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  • 1 year later...

It has been over a year since this topic has been at the top of the board. The past several months have allowed my research to shine new light upon this subject once again.

The most important fact remains the same, Hosty's third note allowed the US Intelligence community to know exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald was working and allowed that information to be received in the office of Richard Helms prior to the final decission on the exact route of the motorcade.

Two facts remain un-nerving:

Number 1: To this day the CIA has never acknowledge that the CIA received Hosty's third note while acknowledging the first two only because they had been given Commission Exhibit numbers. Both Allen Dulles and John J. McCloy questioned Hosty during his testimony but did not demand that the most important note written by Hosty be given a commission exhibit number. John Neuman's excellent work has allowed us to follow the paper trail via Jane Roman to the office of Richard Helms.

Number 2: The final building passed along the planed motorcade route would be where Lee Harvey Oswald was working. Together with the the information provided by the CIA to Bellin in (1976?) we known that the CIA admits that they could have predicted that Oswald would assassinate the President IF they had known that he had attempted to assassinate Edwin Walker the previous April.

In a new thread I hope to present recently uncovered information which is leading me to believe that Richard Helms may have been more involved in this crime than I had previously thought. It seems obvious to me that Helms did withhold the thrid Hosty note from public scrutiny and it also seems that both Dulles and McCloy were involved (via there questioning of Hosty and failure to qive that note a commission exhibit number) in withholding this information as well.

Jim Root

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