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Did the "Big Fish" know


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A few weeks ago I suggested that if we could discover who knew where Oswald was working and then who selected the motorcade route we might have a link to a top level conspirator. Others suggested that Oswald was to small a fish to be monitored so closely.

In Jefferson Morley's article, "What Jane Roman Said," we find these quotes:

"Newman then reviewed the routing slips on two documents about Oswald that Roman herself had received in September 1963.

The first was the FBI report from agent Hosty in Dallas. Hosty reported on Oswald's address in the summer of 1963 and his recent leftist political activities, including his subscription to the Socialist Worker newspaper.

The second report was more provocative. It was a report from the FBI in New Orleans, dated September 23, 1963. (leaves one week for Roman to have received this document, my addition) Oswald, it seemed, had gotten arrested. He had been handing out FPCC pamphlets on a street corner in New Orleans on August 9, 1963 when he was confronted by some members of the militantly anti-Castro group called the Directorio Revolucionario Estudantil or DRE, which was known to North American newspaper readers as the Cuban Student Directorate. An altercation ensued. Oswald and some of the Cubans were arrested. An agent in the New Orleans office of the FBI wrote up a report and sent it to Washington."

Adding other know information to Morley's article:

On November 5, 1963 agent Hosty sent another memo that stated where Oswald was working. The motorcade route was finalized about November 7, 1963. Edwin Walker had been shot at on April 10, 1963 (officially unknown by whom at that time). The Morley article indicates that the CIA, at top levels, was monitoring the memos sent by Hosty (at least his memo of summer 1963) and in the case of the New Orleans FBI agent had the information in the hands of "Tom Karamessines, who served as top deputy to covert operations chief, Richard Helms" (Morley) in less than one week. The Roman story suggests that the CIA could/should/did know that the route selected passed by Oswald's place of employment two weeks in advance of the assassination.

Jim Root

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A few weeks ago I suggested that if we could discover who knew where Oswald was working and then who selected the motorcade route we might have a link to a top level conspirator.  Others suggested that Oswald was to small a fish to be monitored so closely.

In Jefferson Morley's article, "What Jane Roman Said," we find these quotes:

"Newman then reviewed the routing slips on two documents about Oswald that Roman herself had received in September 1963.

The first was the FBI report from agent Hosty in Dallas. Hosty reported on Oswald's address in the summer of 1963 and his recent leftist political activities, including his subscription to the Socialist Worker newspaper.

The second report was more provocative. It was a report from the FBI in New Orleans, dated September 23, 1963. (leaves one week for Roman to have received this document, my addition) Oswald, it seemed, had gotten arrested. He had been handing out FPCC pamphlets on a street corner in New Orleans on August 9, 1963 when he was confronted by some members of the militantly anti-Castro group called the Directorio Revolucionario Estudantil or DRE, which was known to North American newspaper readers as the Cuban Student Directorate. An altercation ensued. Oswald and some of the Cubans were arrested. An agent in the New Orleans office of the FBI wrote up a report and sent it to Washington."

Adding other know information to Morley's article:

On November 5, 1963 agent Hosty sent another memo that stated where Oswald was working.  The motorcade route was finalized about November 7, 1963.  Edwin Walker had been shot at on April 10, 1963 (officially unknown by whom at that time).  The Morley article indicates that the CIA, at top levels, was monitoring the memos sent by Hosty (at least his memo of summer 1963) and in the case of the New Orleans FBI agent had the information in the hands of "Tom Karamessines, who served as top deputy to covert operations chief, Richard Helms" (Morley) in less than one week.  The Roman story suggests that the CIA could/should/did know that the route selected passed by Oswald's place of employment two weeks in advance of the assassination.

Jim Root

Thomas Karamessines.

He was structurally located where he would have known of

cuban activities

joint military paramilitary efforts

domestic covert CIA operations

domestic WH ops and plans shrouded from FBI

FBI information on Defectors

Supervisory over Hunt, Des Fitzgerald, Shackley, Barnes and Harvey (!)

I have known about the structural links suggestive of Thomas Karamessines to this operation for many years.

The joint military paramilitary CIA-Pentagon domestic plans and operations emanating from the offices of Langley, Fort Meade and the Joint Staff,

shielded from probing Justice Department and FBI investigation.

Domestic and foreign operations of the joint military agency group would come to full fruition under Maxwell Taylor...

In order to act, a rationalization along the lines of Unfitness or Incapacity was invoked, probably, on JFK's security clearances.

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A few weeks ago I suggested that if we could discover who knew where Oswald was working and then who selected the motorcade route we might have a link to a top level conspirator.  Others suggested that Oswald was to small a fish to be monitored so closely.

In Jefferson Morley's article, "What Jane Roman Said," we find these quotes:

"Newman then reviewed the routing slips on two documents about Oswald that Roman herself had received in September 1963.

The first was the FBI report from agent Hosty in Dallas. Hosty reported on Oswald's address in the summer of 1963 and his recent leftist political activities, including his subscription to the Socialist Worker newspaper.

The second report was more provocative. It was a report from the FBI in New Orleans, dated September 23, 1963. (leaves one week for Roman to have received this document, my addition) Oswald, it seemed, had gotten arrested. He had been handing out FPCC pamphlets on a street corner in New Orleans on August 9, 1963 when he was confronted by some members of the militantly anti-Castro group called the Directorio Revolucionario Estudantil or DRE, which was known to North American newspaper readers as the Cuban Student Directorate. An altercation ensued. Oswald and some of the Cubans were arrested. An agent in the New Orleans office of the FBI wrote up a report and sent it to Washington."

Adding other know information to Morley's article:

On November 5, 1963 agent Hosty sent another memo that stated where Oswald was working.  The motorcade route was finalized about November 7, 1963.  Edwin Walker had been shot at on April 10, 1963 (officially unknown by whom at that time).  The Morley article indicates that the CIA, at top levels, was monitoring the memos sent by Hosty (at least his memo of summer 1963) and in the case of the New Orleans FBI agent had the information in the hands of "Tom Karamessines, who served as top deputy to covert operations chief, Richard Helms" (Morley) in less than one week.  The Roman story suggests that the CIA could/should/did know that the route selected passed by Oswald's place of employment two weeks in advance of the assassination.

Jim Root

Thomas Karamessines.

He was structurally located where he would have known of

cuban activities

joint military paramilitary efforts

domestic covert CIA operations

domestic WH ops and plans shrouded from FBI

FBI information on Defectors

Supervisory over Hunt, Des Fitzgerald, Shackley, Barnes and Harvey (!)

I have known about the structural links suggestive of Thomas Karamessines to this operation for many years.

The joint military paramilitary CIA-Pentagon domestic plans and operations emanating from the offices of Langley, Fort Meade and the Joint Staff,

shielded from probing Justice Department and FBI investigation.

Domestic and foreign operations of the joint military agency group would come to full fruition under Maxwell Taylor...

In order to act, a rationalization along the lines of Unfitness or Incapacity was invoked, probably, on JFK's security clearances.

The line of reasoning that the motorcade route was chosen so it would

go by LHO's place of employment makes NO SENSE. What if he got a

job NOWHERE NEAR the motorcade route...for instance in Oak Cliff?

It is only REASONABLE that the route was decided and then LHO'S

PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT WAS ARRANGED! The TSBD was selected

very carefully for framing a patsy before LHO ever started to work

there.

Jack :plane

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Jim,

The motorcade route was finalized about November 7, 1963.

Are you sure about this?

Winston Lawson told the Warren Commission that he arrived in Dallas on the 12th and that the decision about whether to use the Trade Mart or the Women's Building hadn't been made yet. The decision about what building to host the lunch would have dictated the route used. They drove over several routes with Lawson and Sorrells making suggestions.

Late in the afternoon of November 18th, there was a meeting of various interest groups (who was going to sit at the head table, who would get tickets, etc.)

and Lawson said:

"Mr. Puterbaugh, for example, the liaison man that went with me from Washington, was there. And I had just come from going over the route with the police earlier that afternoon, and I told them as a point of information that this was the route as we had it now, unless it was changed later. "

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lawson.htm

Steve Thomas

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Steve

"The motorcade route was finalized about November 7, 1963."

I will be happy to concede a later date. It allows more time for the information about Oswald's work location to be passed up the "food chain."

The fact remains that information about Oswald from agent Hosty was being read at the highest echelons of the CIA in a timely manner. Also there is a documented example of a message being received from an FBI agent and passed up in less than a week. This is significant.

Jack

If A = B and B = C then A = C. Fact remains Oswald was working at the TSBD, the CIA was probably aware of that fact then the motorcade went past the TSBD.

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Steve

"The motorcade route was finalized about November 7, 1963."

I will be happy to concede a later date.  It allows more time for the information about Oswald's work location to be passed up the "food chain." 

The fact remains that information about Oswald from agent Hosty was being read at the highest echelons of the CIA in a timely manner. Also there is a documented example of a message being received from an FBI agent and passed up in less than a week.  This is significant.

Jack

If A = B and B = C then A = C.  Fact remains Oswald was working at the TSBD, the CIA was probably aware of that fact then the motorcade went past the TSBD.

LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD BECAUSE the motorcade would go down Elm. Dealey Plaza was the selected assassination site. It was selected for its unique features, including the availability of the TSBD as a place for the patsy/assassination. The CIA planners picked the the route, the building, and the arrangement for LHO to work there. None of this was accidental.

Jack

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Winston Lawson told the Warren Commission that he arrived in Dallas on the 12th and that the decision about whether to use the Trade Mart or the Women's Building hadn't been made yet. The decision about what building to host the lunch would have dictated the route used. They drove over several routes with Lawson and Sorrells making suggestions.

I don't recall the source at the moment, but John Connally insisted on the Trade Mart, and called someone at the White House to have his way about it, though the Trade Mart was considered a worse security risk than the Women's Building. So it didn't matter how many discussions Lawson and others had on the issue, because through Connally it was going to be the Trade Mart, period. One can speculate, of course, on the reason why Connally was so adamant on the issue, but the SS let him have his way in order to keep the peace. At least that's the gist of what I remember reading. I will have to find the source. Perhaps someone else is familiar with it.

Ron

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Jim,

  The motorcade route was finalized about November 7, 1963.

Are you sure about this?

Winston Lawson told the Warren Commission that he arrived in Dallas on the 12th and that the decision about whether to use the Trade Mart or the Women's Building hadn't been made yet. The decision about what building to host the lunch would have dictated the route used. They drove over several routes with Lawson and Sorrells making suggestions.

Late in the afternoon of November 18th, there was a meeting of various interest groups (who was going to sit at the head table, who would get tickets, etc.)

and Lawson said:

"Mr. Puterbaugh, for example, the liaison man that went with me from Washington, was there. And I had just come from going over the route with the police earlier that afternoon, and I told them as a point of information that this was the route as we had it now, unless it was changed later. "

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lawson.htm

Steve Thomas

Excellent points, Steve, as we've come to expect from you.

Although the November 19 Dallas Morning News reported that the final luncheon site hadn't yet been decided, it was finalized on the prior day, but too late for the DMN deadline.

A luncheon at the Women's Building on the Fair Grounds site would have still led the motorcade through downtown Dallas, via Harwood Avenue, before heading east [rather than west toward the Trade Mart] as FDR's 1936 motorcade had done. What's more, moving through the downtown area was key requirement imposed by the White House, according to SS agent testimony:

QUOTE ON:

Mr. Lawson:

But the route that was chosen was chosen because it was the consensus of opinion that it was probably the best route under the circumstances. It allowed us 45 minutes to go from the airport to the Trade Mart at the speed that I figured the President would go from past experience with him in advances, and as a regular working agent riding in a followup car. It allowed us to go downtown, which was wanted back in Washington, D.C.

[WCH IV page 326]

QUOTE OFF

The foregoing is important because on or about November 10 - while the final luncheon site was still undetermined - somebody named "Oswald" applied for a job in the parking lot of the Southland Center/Southland Hotel, in the process asking about the view the building afforded of downtown Dallas. [per Hubert Morrow of the All Right Parking concern]

The Southland complex is located on Olive Street, one block from the Harwood Avenue motorcade route, which route was fixed at White House insistence [per Lawson, above], irrespective of the final luncheon site.

It has been suggested this job application was a red herring, an imposter masquerading as Oswald inquiring about an advantageous position for a sniper, prior to the assassination. I would argue, however, that the real Oswald - at somebody else's suggestion - applied for the job, in the event that the Trade Mart was NOT chosen as the ultimate luncheon site. A job at the Southland complex would have put Oswald one short block - well within sniping range - from the motorcade on Harwood.

[How did the "Oswald" who applied for this job KNOW there was a job opening at the Southland Hotel parking lot? Any answer would be speculative, but let us remember that Alpha 66 firebrand Antonio Veciana testified he had in September 1963 seen Oswald in the company of Veciana's handler - Maurice Bishop - in a building that was most likely the Southland Center. Again, I feel compelled to stress that this is purely speculation on my part, but it should be noted nevertheless that Oswald had been in the building before, at somebody's else's suggestion, if Veciana's testimony can be believed.]

In short, I suggest that the motorcade route wasn't selected to place the President near Oswald's place of work. On the contrary: Oswald's place of work was perfect for the one route leading to the Trade Mart, but would and could have been changed had the Women's Building been selected instead.

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Robert, we've also turned up a document which states that Oswald applied for a job at the Devilbiss Company in the general area of the Trade Mart after he was employed at the TSBD. There is no specific date on hisjob application but Dallas Eyewitness news investigated and were told that Oswald had been there about two weeks before the assassination. I'd say someone was covering all the bases. The application was picked up by the FBI but not specifically mentioned in its report on Oswald's job searches.

-- Larry

Jim,

  The motorcade route was finalized about November 7, 1963.

Are you sure about this?

Winston Lawson told the Warren Commission that he arrived in Dallas on the 12th and that the decision about whether to use the Trade Mart or the Women's Building hadn't been made yet. The decision about what building to host the lunch would have dictated the route used. They drove over several routes with Lawson and Sorrells making suggestions.

Late in the afternoon of November 18th, there was a meeting of various interest groups (who was going to sit at the head table, who would get tickets, etc.)

and Lawson said:

"Mr. Puterbaugh, for example, the liaison man that went with me from Washington, was there. And I had just come from going over the route with the police earlier that afternoon, and I told them as a point of information that this was the route as we had it now, unless it was changed later. "

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lawson.htm

Steve Thomas

Excellent points, Steve, as we've come to expect from you.

Although the November 19 Dallas Morning News reported that the final luncheon site hadn't yet been decided, it was finalized on the prior day, but too late for the DMN deadline.

A luncheon at the Women's Building on the Fair Grounds site would have still led the motorcade through downtown Dallas, via Harwood Avenue, before heading east [rather than west toward the Trade Mart] as FDR's 1936 motorcade had done. What's more, moving through the downtown area was key requirement imposed by the White House, according to SS agent testimony:

QUOTE ON:

Mr. Lawson:

But the route that was chosen was chosen because it was the consensus of opinion that it was probably the best route under the circumstances. It allowed us 45 minutes to go from the airport to the Trade Mart at the speed that I figured the President would go from past experience with him in advances, and as a regular working agent riding in a followup car. It allowed us to go downtown, which was wanted back in Washington, D.C.

[WCH IV page 326]

QUOTE OFF

The foregoing is important because on or about November 10 - while the final luncheon site was still undetermined - somebody named "Oswald" applied for a job in the parking lot of the Southland Center/Southland Hotel, in the process asking about the view the building afforded of downtown Dallas. [per Hubert Morrow of the All Right Parking concern]

The Southland complex is located on Olive Street, one block from the Harwood Avenue motorcade route, which route was fixed at White House insistence [per Lawson, above], irrespective of the final luncheon site.

It has been suggested this job application was a red herring, an imposter masquerading as Oswald inquiring about an advantageous position for a sniper, prior to the assassination. I would argue, however, that the real Oswald - at somebody else's suggestion - applied for the job, in the event that the Trade Mart was NOT chosen as the ultimate luncheon site. A job at the Southland complex would have put Oswald one short block - well within sniping range - from the motorcade on Harwood.

[How did the "Oswald" who applied for this job KNOW there was a job opening at the Southland Hotel parking lot? Any answer would be speculative, but let us remember that Alpha 66 firebrand Antonio Veciana testified he had in September 1963 seen Oswald in the company of Veciana's handler - Maurice Bishop - in a building that was most likely the Southland Center. Again, I feel compelled to stress that this is purely speculation on my part, but it should be noted nevertheless that Oswald had been in the building before, at somebody's else's suggestion, if Veciana's testimony can be believed.]

In short, I suggest that the motorcade route wasn't selected to place the President near Oswald's place of work. On the contrary: Oswald's place of work was perfect for the one route leading to the Trade Mart, but would and could have been changed had the Women's Building been selected instead.

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Robert,  we've also turned up a document which states that Oswald applied for a job at the Devilbiss Company in the general area of the Trade Mart after he was employed at the TSBD.  There is no specific date on hisjob application but Dallas Eyewitness news investigated and were told that Oswald had been there about two weeks before the assassination.  I'd say someone was covering all the bases.  The application was picked up by the FBI but not specifically mentioned in its report on Oswald's job searches.

I think there are very important points being raised in this thread. If LHO was brought to the motorcade route rather than vice versa, does that not necessarily implicate in the conspiracy the persons who got LHO the job in the TSBD?

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Robert, we've also turned up a document which states that Oswald applied for a job at the Devilbiss Company in the general area of the Trade Mart after he was employed at the TSBD. There is no specific date on hisjob application but Dallas Eyewitness news investigated and were told that Oswald had been there about two weeks before the assassination. I'd say someone was covering all the bases. The application was picked up by the FBI but not specifically mentioned in its report on Oswald's job searches. (Larry Hancock)

I think there are very important points being raised in this thread. If LHO was brought to the motorcade route rather than vice versa, does that not necessarily implicate in the conspiracy the persons who got LHO the job in the TSBD? (Tim Gratz)

IMO, this is one of the most powerful threads that has been presented in some time in trying to track down who staged the assassination. I do believe that too much is given to the route as part of the conspiracy as we must remember the purpose of the Texas trip was exposure to the citizens of Texas with JFK, LBJ, JBC and RY all present in the motorcade. The trip through downtown was neccessary and DP was a neccessity for this route. Positioning Oswald was a key point for a fall guy, but if issues came up and their would have been an alternative route, I am sure their would have been another patsy and team placement ready to go for that. Larry and others have pointed out other places of employment for LHO to cover other venues of operation, which is an excellent and evidentiary point. As Dallas became the third of such planned operations, I believe they had other venues of assault prepared as a fall back. This does not however take away the importance of the link as to who was knowlegable of the events that transpired leading up to this and the documents listed in this thread that supports it.

I believe we are now actually getting somewhere as to the planners...

No surprise who is adding to this thread!

Al

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IMO, this is one of the most powerful threads that has been presented in some time in trying to track down who staged the assassination. I do believe that too much is given to the route as part of the conspiracy as we must remember the purpose of the Texas trip was exposure to the citizens of Texas with JFK, LBJ, JBC and RY all present in the motorcade. The trip through downtown was neccessary and DP was a neccessity for this route. Positioning Oswald was a key point for a fall guy, but if issues came up and their would have been an alternative route, I am sure their would have been another patsy and team placement ready to go for that. Larry and others have pointed out other places of employment for LHO to cover other venues of operation, which is an excellent and evidentiary point. As Dallas became the third of such planned operations, I believe they had other venues of assault prepared as a fall back. This does not however take away the importance of the link as to who was knowlegable of the events that transpired leading up to this and the documents listed in this thread that supports it.

Great thread. A good answer to Dawn’s question about the importance of JFK forum’s.

Al refers to a second patsy in another part of the motorcade. I suspect he is right about this. But I would have thought there would have also been a second patsy in Dealey Plaza. The conspirators must have been aware that an examination of JFK’s wounds would reveal two gunman. Framing Oswald would never have been enough. They needed two patsies. The other man, like Oswald, would also have had links with left-wing groups. After all, the original plan was clearly to blame it on Castro in order to instigate an invasion of Cuba. For this to work both men had to be killed. One possibility was to kill them at the scene. This definitely did not happen. A second way was to get them together and kill them on their way to Cuba. Had they set up a pilot to take them to Cuba? Was the original plan to have the plane shot down on route? If this had happened, an invasion of Cuba would have been inevitable.

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Great thread. A good answer to Dawn’s question about the importance of JFK forum’s.

Al refers to a second patsy in another part of the motorcade. I suspect he is right about this. But I would have thought there would have also been a second patsy in Dealey Plaza. The conspirators must have been aware that an examination of JFK’s wounds would reveal two gunman. Framing Oswald would never have been enough. They needed two patsies. The other man, like Oswald, would also have had links with left-wing groups. After all, the original plan was clearly to blame it on Castro in order to instigate an invasion of Cuba. For this to work both men had to be killed. One possibility was to kill them at the scene. This definitely did not happen. A second way was to get them together and kill them on their way to Cuba. Had they set up a pilot to take them to Cuba? Was the original plan to have the plane shot down on route? If this had happened, an invasion of Cuba would have been inevitable.

A very interesting post, John. With respect to the plane to Cuba, however, I have these thoughts or questions.

Certainly the pilot did not know he would be going on a suicide mission. So how did the pilot expect to get into Cuba? Certainly Cuba was actively guarding its air space after the assassination in fear of a possible U.S. attack.

Another point: if indeed there were two patsies in Dealey Plaza why was the second patsy not used? It would have saved Arlen Specter a lot of grief, to be sure!

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Great thread,

I agree mostly with Jack White. Tho I also agree that there were fallback plans, we know that, in fact Austin was even on that list.

Shanet, as always makes a great analysis.

Tim, thanks for alerting me to this particular thread.

John, I do think forums are important, and will not repeat myself here, but would you please explain your words about JFK not being an effective president. It goes against everything else you have written, so I find it very curious.

Dawn

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