The Killing Floor

[David Von Pein]

20 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

In all probability, the judge would have thrown out the case.

Oh sure, Jim. The judge would have tossed the case in the trash---despite the fact that every scrap of evidence up there on the 6th floor* pointed in the direction of Lee Harvey Oswald being the assassin (e.g., Oswald's rifle, his prints on the boxes in the Sniper's Nest, the CE142 paper bag with Oswald's prints on it, and the shell casings from LHO's gun).

And yet Jim D. keeps assuring everyone that it's me (and not the conspiracy theorists) who resides in a world of fantasy.

* Evidence which you think is all fake, of course. But that's another fifty arguments/threads.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Tony Krome]

No point in debating anyone, Garner saw Truly/Baker after the girls had descended the stairs. The thing that interests me is what was Baker doing when she saw him? Was he moving from staircase to staircase, or was he confronting someone?

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Has Dorothy Garner ever been interviewed by anyone, Pat? (Beyond the very short "Stroud document", that is.) Did she ever give any details about exactly where she was located (in relation to the stairs) at 12:30 to 12:32 PM CST on 11/22/63?

That would certainly be an important detail to know, don't you think?

The Stroud document is indeed interesting. But before declaring Oswald innocent, I think a little more info is needed beyond just this one single sentence regarding Miss Garner in this June 1964 letter:

(6-27-11 interview with Barry Ernest as recounted in his 2011 online article Another Ignored Witness Found) "The focus of my call to her, of course, was Victoria Adams, whether Mrs. Garner was indeed in a position to have seen Baker and Truly or anyone else on the back stairs, and who she had made the comment to that appeared in the Stroud document. "I was at the window with Elsie Dorman, Victoria Adams, and Sandra Styles," she said. Did Miss Adams and Miss Styles leave the window right away, I asked her. "The girls did," she responded. "I remember them being there and the next thing I knew, they were gone." They had left "very quickly…within a matter of moments," she added. What did Mrs. Garner do after that? "There was this warehouse or storage area behind our office, out by the freight elevators and the rear stairway, and I went out there." Her move to that area clearly put her into a position where she could have observed activity on the back stairs as well as on the elevators. But how fast had she arrived there? Mrs. Garner said she immediately went to this area, following "shortly after…right behind" Miss Adams and Miss Styles. She couldn't remember exactly why she went out there, other than to say, "probably to get something." Mrs. Garner said she did not actually see "the girls" enter the stairway, though, arriving on the fourth-floor landing seconds after. When I asked how she knew they had gone down, Mrs. Garner said, "I remember hearing them, after they started down. I remember the stairs were very noisy." Were the freight elevators in operation during this time? "I don't recall that," she answered. "They were very noisy too!" Mrs. Garner said she remained at that spot and was alone for a moment before "several came out back from the office to look out those windows there." The presence of other employees at the west windows was confirmed by Bonnie Ray Williams who, with Harold Norman and James Jarman, had watched the motorcade from the fifth floor and then, after several minutes, made their way to the first floor by way of the stairs. Williams testified he arrived on the fourth floor "where we saw these women looking out of the window." If Victoria Adams went down the stairs when she said she did, and Mrs. Garner was now confirming that, perhaps Miss Adams had descended those stairs so fast she was ahead of Oswald."

[Benjamin Cole]

Love the film, and certainly the WC both manipulated and selected witnesses---on every topic. The WC was a prosecution, not an investigation, and there was no defense counsel. 

That said, I have never been comfortable with the "no one was seen on the stairs" angle to the JFKA.

There are multiple witnesses who saw one or even two people on the Sixth Floor just prior or during the JFKA, and multiple witnesses who saw what appeared to be a rifle barrel extending from the TSBD during the JFKA.

Ergo, I posit someone was on the Sixth Floor (and possibly other floors) of the TSBD during the JFKA, and they played a role in the JFKA. 

So...how did they get down? 

Side note: There were publishers' offices in the TSBD, I believe on the 2nd and/or 4th floors. AFAIK, these offices were never searched. No 11/22 roll calls of their employees.

My guess is the JFKA perps pre-planned their exit route down the stairs, and were young and lithe. They were on the steps within moments. Maybe they wore sneakers. Maybe they stopped at a 4th floor office and hid out (although that is risky). 

Just IMHO....

 

[Pat Speer]

1 minute ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Love the film, and certainly the WC both manipulated and selected witnesses---on every topic. The WC was a prosecution, not an investigation, and there was no defense counsel. 

That said, I have never been comfortable with the "no one was seen on the stairs" angle to the JFKA.

There are multiple witnesses who saw one or even two people on the Sixth Floor just prior or during the JFKA, and multiple witnesses who saw what appeared to be a rifle barrel extending from the TSBD during the JFKA.

Ergo, I posit someone was on the Sixth Floor (and possibly other floors) of the TSBD during the JFKA, and they played a role in the JFKA. 

So...how did they get down? 

Side note: There were publishers' offices in the TSBD, I believe on the 2nd and/or 4th floors. AFAIK, these offices were never searched. No 11/22 roll calls of their employees.

My guess is the JFKA perps pre-planned their exit route down the stairs, and were young and lithe. They were on the steps within moments. Maybe they wore sneakers. Maybe they stopped at a 4th floor office and hid out (although that is risky). 

Just IMHO....

 

When Baker and Truly looked up from the ground floor they saw that both elevators were locked on the upper floors. When they got up to the fifth, however, there was but one. IOW, an elevator descended as they ran up. Well, who was in that elevator? The WC pretended it was Dougherty, who said he took an elevator down after going back to work and going upstairs. But there's a problem with this.

Dougherty specified that he went back to work around 12:35 or so. So that would mean he took an elevator back up that had been brought down by someone else. Well, the WC in the person of Joe Ball couldn't have that, so they made out that the loud sound Dougherty heard on the fifth floor was one of the three shots fired from the sixth floor, and that he had thereby returned to work before 12:30 . But this was disingenuous. He heard but one loud sound from above him, and not from the open windows on the far side of the building. And he claimed he was standing near the elevators at the time of the shooting, which would have put him in sight of Jarman, Williams and Norman when they ran to the west side windows a few seconds later. And, well, they didn't see him and he didn't see or hear them...

And here's the kicker... Truly testified to seeing Dougherty working on the fifth floor as he came back from the roof. 

It's clear, then, that Dougherty heard a loud sound from above him a few minutes after the shots while working on the fifth floor. Well, Truly and Baker would have to have closed a hatch door up on the roof as they came down, And this door was right near the elevator shaft. So that was almost certainly the sound he heard. 

So, yeah, someone took the west elevator down after the shooting, and none of the depository employees would cop to it. Ball made out that it was Dougherty, and that the inconsistencies in Dougherty's story were because he was retarded, and had no grasp of time. Well, a few years ago I found an article on Ball in a legal publication and it turns out he was famous for getting rapists off the hook by convincing juries the victims were just too stupid to be believed. If you read Dougherty's testimony in this light, you'll see that Ball set him up to look stupid, so they could say he was in the elevator that came down as Baker and Truly ran up. But it wasn't him...

 

[David Von Pein]

40 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

(6-27-11 interview with Barry Ernest as recounted in his 2011 online article Another Ignored Witness Found) "The focus of my call to her, of course, was Victoria Adams, whether Mrs. Garner was indeed in a position to have seen Baker and Truly or anyone else on the back stairs...

Thanks for that info, Pat. (And thanks to Barry Ernest too.)

Knowing the evidence that exists against Lee Oswald as I do, my opinion is (and has been for many years) that Oswald did use those back stairs to flee from his sixth-floor sniper's perch, and he did somehow manage to walk between the raindrops (so to speak) so as to avoid being seen by anyone on any of the TSBD floors that he had to traverse in order to make it to the second-floor lunchroom by approximately 12:32 PM.

And, IMO, the information supplied by Dorothy Garner does not and cannot exonerate Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of the President, given the evidence that exists against him.

And if LHO wasn't the sixth-floor sniper, then the question needs to be asked --- How, then, did the real 6th-floor assassin(s) manage to avoid being seen by Garner, et al, in the minutes following JFK's murder?

That is certainly a legitimate and valid question that has never been satisfactorily answered (IMO) by any conspiracy theorist.

Edited October 16, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

IMO, this document, which was not found until 1999, is pretty shocking even for the WC. I wonder if there had been no ARRB if it would have been found at all.

This is June 2nd, and the Commission will not close its doors until about early to mid September.

This means that Rankin had 3 months to contact Garner, and then get her before the Commission. There is no evidence he did.  

If you add this to the failure to call Styles, and how they distorted and altered Adams' testimony, its simply unethical.  The kind of thing lawyers get disbarred on.

As we tried to show in JFK Revisited there is the real world, and there is the WC world.  In the real world, if you do stuff like this in court i.e. conceal exculpatory evidence, or alter testimony, there is a good chance the judge will throw the case out, or at least call a mistrial.  But Ball, Belin and Rankin had to do this.. If they had done an honest reconstruction, with all the witnesses there, and someone coming down the stairs without tennis shoes on?  With the time frame that Vickie and Sandy said, not the made up BS in the WR?  

In the real world, if you cat caught doing this stuff, in all probability, the judge would have thrown out the case.

PS Thanks Ron.

At one point, I absorbed all the testimony regarding what happened in the building and noticed a disgusting pattern.

From patspeer.com, Chapter 4:

 

A Quick Review: the Suspicious Omissions (and Commissions, with a Few New Additions) in Chronological Order

From reviewing the suspicious omissions, and placing them in chronological order, one can get a sense of where the Commission went astray. It went astray because it wasn't willing to get it right. It seems clear, moreover, that, prior to taking any testimony, Messieurs Ball and Belin had already decided to push a scenario in which Oswald stayed upstairs during lunchtime and raced downstairs after the shooting, and Jack Dougherty rode the elevator from the fifth floor on down as Baker and Truly raced up the stairs to the fifth floor.

12-20-63. The FBI omits from a report on an interview with Eddie Piper that Piper feels certain he saw Oswald on the first floor around 12:00.

March 64--September 64. The Warren Commission fails to call Carolyn Arnold to testify, even though she told FBI investigators on 11-26-63 that she believed she saw Oswald on the first floor around 12:15.

March 64--September 64. The Warren Commission fails to call Carolyn Walther to testify, even though she told FBI investigators on 12-4-63 that she saw a man with a rifle on an upper floor of the school book depository, and that there was another man behind him, to his left.

March 1964--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to call Lillian Mooneyham to testify, even though she told the FBI on 1-8-64 that she saw a man standing in the sniper's nest at a time the Commission presumes Oswald to have been running down the back stairs.

March 1964--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to call Sandra Styles to testify, even though she could confirm Vickie Adams' claim she raced down the back stairs just after the shooting and didn't see Oswald.

March 1964--September 1964. Warren Commission attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin fail to follow-up on the Secret Service's interviews of Pierce Allman and Terry Ford, in which they placed themselves near the back of the building at the time the commission presumed Adams and Styles had raced down the back stairs.

3-11-64. In a desperate attempt at getting them to change their recollection of the size of the bag they saw Oswald carrying on the morning of the 22nd (which they remembered as being too small to hold the rifle found in the school book depository) Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball asks Buell Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle to hold their hands apart to demonstrate the length of the bag. He then asks them to do this again, and again, at least ten times, according to Frazier, giving them the feeling he won't stop asking until they lie and tell him the bag was longer than they believed it was.

3-24-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to follow up with witness Harold Norman and find out how his not playing dominoes at lunch made him think someone else was in the room--an inquiry that would almost certainly have led to Norman's saying he thought this someone else was Oswald.

3-24-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to point out during testimony or subsequently acknowledge that James Jarman and Harold Norman's claim they re-entered the building via the back door towards the end of their lunch time supported Oswald's claim he'd been sitting in a room with a view of the back door area during lunch time, and had observed Jarman and Norman.

3-25-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin fail to follow-up on Officer Marrion Baker's claim he saw two white men by the elevators when he came into the building with Oswald's boss Roy Truly, at a time when no white men besides Baker and Truly were known to be on the first floor.

4-1-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin argues with witness Ronald Fischer about the color of the hair of the man Fischer saw staring out the window of the sniper's nest. According to Fischer, Belin tries to "intimidate" him, because Oswald's hair was not as light as the hair of the man Fischer saw, and he "wanted me to tell him that the man was dark-headed and I wouldn't do it." (Note: this was detailed in a December 1978 Dallas Morning News article by Earl Golz.)

4-7-64--Warren Commission attorney David Belin shows Vickie Adams a diagram of the first floor depicting where she claimed she saw Lovelady and Shelley, but fails to enter this diagram into evidence.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Billy Lovelady any of a number of relevant questions regarding Eddie Piper and Jack Dougherty's actions after the shooting.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball also fails to ask Lovelady if he saw Roy Truly and Officer Baker by the elevators, and whether or not he could be one of the white men observed by Baker.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball asks William Shelley if he saw Roy Truly enter the depository building, but fails to ask him the more important question if he saw Truly and officer Baker by the elevators, and whether or not he could be one of the white men observed by Baker.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask William Shelley any of a number of relevant questions regarding Eddie Piper and Jack Dougherty's actions after the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission's diagrams for the first floor of the school book depository strangely fail to include the west loading dock, through which Shelley and Lovelady re-entered the building, which was presumably left unsecured for some time after the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin fail to interview Gloria Calvery and re-enact the actions of William Shelley and Billy Lovelady after the shooting (in order to develop a timeline for Shelley and Lovelady's return to the building, which is essential to their assessing the credibility of Vickie Adams), even though Ball and Belin know from their testimony that Shelley and Lovelady's sense of time for the moments immediately following the shooting are at odds with the re-enactments Ball and Belin had already performed.

4-7-64--September 1964. Ball and Belin fail to consult newsreel footage which could help them establish the timing of Shelley and Lovelady's walk around the building, which could, in turn, help them establish the credibility of Vickie Adams' claim she ran down the back stairs just after the shooting, and saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor.

4-7-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to ask Joe Molina about Vickie Adams even though it has reason to suspect he would confirm Adams' claim she was outside on the front steps within a few minutes of the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to ask Mrs. Avery Davis about Vickie Adams even though it has reason to suspect she would confirm Adams' claim she was outside on the front steps within a few minutes of the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to follow-up and establish the identity of a policeman observed by Vickie Adams just after the shooting, even though the identification of this policeman could help the Commission establish the veracity of Miss Adams' claim she raced down the back stairs just after the shooting, and didn't see Oswald.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to follow-up and clarify the record when Charles Givens testifies to leaving his coat in the domino room upon his arrival at work, but then going back up to the sixth floor to get his jacket after everyone else had left for lunch--a brand new addition to Givens' story that allowed Belin and the Commission to place Oswald in the proximity of the sniper's nest shortly before the shooting.

4-8-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to point out in testimony or subsequently acknowledge that Givens' new story was in conflict with both his previous recollections, and that of his co-workers.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin goes against the precedent established during the testimony of Bonnie Ray Williams and others and allows Charles Givens to dispute the claims of an FBI report--without putting the source of these claims on the record.

4-8-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to follow-up with Givens' 11-22-63 lunch partner, Edward Shields, to see if he will confirm Givens' claim he saw Oswald on the sixth floor around 11:55.

4-8-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney David Belin, the man behind a number of re-enactments, fails to re-enact Givens' purported sighting of Oswald, to see if Givens could actually have seen Oswald where he said he saw him.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Eddie Piper where on the first floor he saw Oswald at 12:00, and thereby conceals from the Commission and public that Piper felt certain he saw Oswald just where Oswald said he was during the lunch period--in the domino room.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Eddie Piper about his discussion with Jack Dougherty, something that was desperately needed for the establishment of Dougherty as the passenger coming down in the west elevator after the shooting.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Jack Dougherty what time he came down for lunch, and thereby conceals that Dougherty had previously claimed he was on the sixth floor until 12, and would thereby have been on the sixth floor when Charles Givens claimed he last saw Oswald.

4-8-64. Warren Commission Attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Jack Dougherty if he called the west elevator to the first floor after lunch, or if it was on the ground floor waiting for him, something that Dougherty may not have remembered, but something that was of vital importance and needed to be asked.

4-8-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to test whether or not a rifle shot from the sixth floor sniper's nest window could have been heard by Jack Dougherty, standing near the opposite end of the building, as a sound coming from above him.

4-8-64--September 1964. Ball, Belin, and the Warren Commission fail to explore the possibility Dougherty went upstairs to work after the shooting, after someone else had taken the west elevator to the ground floor.

4-8-64--September 1964. Attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin and the Warren Commission as a whole fail to acknowledge that their conclusion Jack Dougherty rode the west elevator down to the first floor as Baker and Truly ran upstairs places Dougherty on the fifth floor by the west elevator as Oswald crossed an open stretch of floor before him.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin allows Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer to testify as though Charles Givens' new-found story (about seeing Oswald near the sniper's nest after everyone else had left the sixth floor) had been common knowledge on 11-22-63, when Belin knew this wasn't true.

5-13-64. Dallas Police Detective Jack Revill testifies in support of Givens' new-found story, and offers Dallas Police Detective V. J. Brian as a witness to his discussion with Givens, only to have Warren Commission General Counsel J. Lee Rankin fail to ask Brian about Givens in testimony taken just after Revill dropped his smelly surprise.

5-14-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball cuts off Eddie Piper after Piper volunteers that he has no idea who brought the elevators down just after the shots, and steers him to what he believes is a more productive course--that he failed to see Vickie Adams come down the stairs.

5-14-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball not only fails to ask Eddie Piper the questions about Jack Dougherty he'd claimed in a memo needed to be asked, but uses the failure of Piper to provide answers to these never-asked questions as a means of discrediting him.

5-14-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball inexplicably fails to ask William Shelley about Jack Dougherty's 4-8-64 testimony, in which Dougherty claimed Shelley had told him he saw Oswald with a large package on 11-22-63.

5-19-64. The February 17-18 statements of Vickie Adams, who claimed she raced down the stairs just after the shooting, and Otis Williams, who claimed he raced up to the fourth floor shortly after the shooting (and who later claimed he'd taken the back stairs up to the second floor just after the shooting), are inexplicably missing from a batch of statements taken by the Dallas Police that are only now provided the Warren Commission.

6-4-64--September 1964. Vickie Adams' boss, Dorothy Ann Garner, lets it be known she'd be willing to testify in support of Adams' and Styles' claim they raced down the stairs after the shooting, and goes one step further by claiming she saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs after Adams and Styles ran down the stairs...and is totally blown off by the Warren Commission...

June-64--September 1964. Chapter IV in the Commission's Final report is presented, approved, and sold to the public even though it includes an egregious lie, which, no surprise, helps sell Oswald's guilt. In support of the Commission's conclusion Vickie Adams was mistaken, and that Oswald did in fact race down the stairs within a minute of the shooting, the report claims: "Victoria Adams, who worked on the fourth floor of the Depository Building, claimed that within about 1 minute following the shots she ran from a window on the south side of the fourth floor, down the rear stairs to the first floor, where she encountered two Depository employees--William Shelley and Billy Lovelady. If her estimate of time is correct, she reached the bottom of the stairs before Truly and Baker started up, and she must have run down the stairs ahead of Oswald and would probably have seen or heard him..." It then strikes: "Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they... reentered the building by the REAR door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance".

So where was the lie? I sure hope you caught it.

It was the bit about Shelley and Lovelady re-entering the building through the REAR door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front door. While Shelley and Lovelady both struggled with their time estimates, and thereby helped the Commission in its effort to discredit Adams, they also were consistent in that they both testified--in the testimony the Commission cited by footnote to support they'd re-entered by the rear door, moreover-- to re-entering the building through the side door. By claiming they re-entered the building through the REAR door, instead of the side door, the commission had effectively doubled the distance the men were presumed to have covered in the "several minutes" of their estimate.

[Matt Allison]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

So...how did they get down? 

Gerry Hemming and others posited that the elevator shaft was used, and was used for that deliberate purpose.

I would be curious if the reason for the elevator being non-working at the time of the shooting was ever chased down; was it because an employee left the door open on another floor, or if it was due to a power issue.

 

[Matt Allison]

3 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Oh sure, Jim. The judge would have tossed the case in the trash

I don't know if the judge would have thrown out the case, but what that document tells us is that at a trial, a line of questioning would have been taken with Adams, Styles, Garner and others that would have made it impossible to get a jury to agree Oswald was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. 

[Guest]

I can't put my finger on it, but I always have this feeling some of the TSBD men and women  must have seen more than what they've said (on things happening just before and after the shooting). Some were very close and noticed very little, not ? (when it comes to seeing certain people that is, Oswald or any other)

BUT I can not really blame them... they must have assumed it was better for them to stay out of this mess... only human (the 1960's mentality in a lot of terrible aspects..).

Could be I'm the only one with this feeling don't know. 

It won't make any difference anyway  

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Steve Roe]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

That is certainly a legitimate and valid question that has never been satisfactorily answered (IMO) by any conspiracy theorist.

David, they avoid it like the plague. Incredibly Barry Ernest did answer that question and he said perhaps the assassin just remained up there and mingled in with the Dallas Police, Sheriff's Deputies and others. That was particularly amusing answer. 

But hey, let's ignore all the physical evidence, the rifle bag with Oswald's palm print, the rifle with Oswald's print on the barrel (albeit old-verifies he did handle it at some time), the fake Hidell card, the bullets tied to that rifle, his prints on the sniper nest boxes, the Hidell purchase of the rifle/revolver, the Tippit shooting, leaving the TSBD quickly thereafter, etc.

All Oswald had to do is make his descent downstairs BEFORE Adams/Styles. Then duck into the 2nd floor lunchroom where he encountered Truly and Baker. During that encounter, Adams and Styles descended downstairs completely missing Truly and Baker. Now which the Stroud document makes sense that Garner saw Truly and Baker making their way up to the 4th floor, of course after the lunchroom encounter and after Adams/Styles left for the stairs. 

[Benjamin Cole]

30 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

I don't know if the judge would have thrown out the case, but what that document tells us is that at a trial, a line of questioning would have been taken with Adams, Styles, Garner and others that would have made it impossible to get a jury to agree Oswald was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. 

I agree with this.

Moreover if LHO had had very effective and well-funded defense counsel, who knows what exculpatory information night have been uncovered, what other witnesses would have testified, and so on? 

Of course, LHO might have confessed to be being a part of false flag op, to stage an unsuccessful JFKA to be blamed loosely on Cuba. 

The WC was a prosecution, a type of show trial, for political expediency.  That alone does not exonerate LHO. In fact, I suspect LHO, almost certainly a CIA asset, was part of false flag op that day. 

It is possible to have a kangaroo trial of a guilty man. But it is still a kangaroo trial. 

[Guest]

Crime Scene Investigation: A Guide for Law Enforcement

Please take a fluo marker and mark what went wrong (esp. p 11-14-16-etc)

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/178280.pdf

I know this is recent stuff, but just stick to the basics, they were pretty much the same in the 1960's.   The whole thing was a mess because DPD handled the case "19th century cowboy style".... IMO

Edited October 16, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

At one point, I absorbed all the testimony regarding what happened in the building and noticed a disgusting pattern.

From patspeer.com, Chapter 4:

 

A Quick Review: the Suspicious Omissions (and Commissions, with a Few New Additions) in Chronological Order

From reviewing the suspicious omissions, and placing them in chronological order, one can get a sense of where the Commission went astray. It went astray because it wasn't willing to get it right. It seems clear, moreover, that, prior to taking any testimony, Messieurs Ball and Belin had already decided to push a scenario in which Oswald stayed upstairs during lunchtime and raced downstairs after the shooting, and Jack Dougherty rode the elevator from the fifth floor on down as Baker and Truly raced up the stairs to the fifth floor.

12-20-63. The FBI omits from a report on an interview with Eddie Piper that Piper feels certain he saw Oswald on the first floor around 12:00.

March 64--September 64. The Warren Commission fails to call Carolyn Arnold to testify, even though she told FBI investigators on 11-26-63 that she believed she saw Oswald on the first floor around 12:15.

March 64--September 64. The Warren Commission fails to call Carolyn Walther to testify, even though she told FBI investigators on 12-4-63 that she saw a man with a rifle on an upper floor of the school book depository, and that there was another man behind him, to his left.

March 1964--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to call Lillian Mooneyham to testify, even though she told the FBI on 1-8-64 that she saw a man standing in the sniper's nest at a time the Commission presumes Oswald to have been running down the back stairs.

March 1964--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to call Sandra Styles to testify, even though she could confirm Vickie Adams' claim she raced down the back stairs just after the shooting and didn't see Oswald.

March 1964--September 1964. Warren Commission attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin fail to follow-up on the Secret Service's interviews of Pierce Allman and Terry Ford, in which they placed themselves near the back of the building at the time the commission presumed Adams and Styles had raced down the back stairs.

3-11-64. In a desperate attempt at getting them to change their recollection of the size of the bag they saw Oswald carrying on the morning of the 22nd (which they remembered as being too small to hold the rifle found in the school book depository) Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball asks Buell Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle to hold their hands apart to demonstrate the length of the bag. He then asks them to do this again, and again, at least ten times, according to Frazier, giving them the feeling he won't stop asking until they lie and tell him the bag was longer than they believed it was.

3-24-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to follow up with witness Harold Norman and find out how his not playing dominoes at lunch made him think someone else was in the room--an inquiry that would almost certainly have led to Norman's saying he thought this someone else was Oswald.

3-24-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to point out during testimony or subsequently acknowledge that James Jarman and Harold Norman's claim they re-entered the building via the back door towards the end of their lunch time supported Oswald's claim he'd been sitting in a room with a view of the back door area during lunch time, and had observed Jarman and Norman.

3-25-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin fail to follow-up on Officer Marrion Baker's claim he saw two white men by the elevators when he came into the building with Oswald's boss Roy Truly, at a time when no white men besides Baker and Truly were known to be on the first floor.

4-1-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin argues with witness Ronald Fischer about the color of the hair of the man Fischer saw staring out the window of the sniper's nest. According to Fischer, Belin tries to "intimidate" him, because Oswald's hair was not as light as the hair of the man Fischer saw, and he "wanted me to tell him that the man was dark-headed and I wouldn't do it." (Note: this was detailed in a December 1978 Dallas Morning News article by Earl Golz.)

4-7-64--Warren Commission attorney David Belin shows Vickie Adams a diagram of the first floor depicting where she claimed she saw Lovelady and Shelley, but fails to enter this diagram into evidence.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Billy Lovelady any of a number of relevant questions regarding Eddie Piper and Jack Dougherty's actions after the shooting.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball also fails to ask Lovelady if he saw Roy Truly and Officer Baker by the elevators, and whether or not he could be one of the white men observed by Baker.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball asks William Shelley if he saw Roy Truly enter the depository building, but fails to ask him the more important question if he saw Truly and officer Baker by the elevators, and whether or not he could be one of the white men observed by Baker.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask William Shelley any of a number of relevant questions regarding Eddie Piper and Jack Dougherty's actions after the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission's diagrams for the first floor of the school book depository strangely fail to include the west loading dock, through which Shelley and Lovelady re-entered the building, which was presumably left unsecured for some time after the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin fail to interview Gloria Calvery and re-enact the actions of William Shelley and Billy Lovelady after the shooting (in order to develop a timeline for Shelley and Lovelady's return to the building, which is essential to their assessing the credibility of Vickie Adams), even though Ball and Belin know from their testimony that Shelley and Lovelady's sense of time for the moments immediately following the shooting are at odds with the re-enactments Ball and Belin had already performed.

4-7-64--September 1964. Ball and Belin fail to consult newsreel footage which could help them establish the timing of Shelley and Lovelady's walk around the building, which could, in turn, help them establish the credibility of Vickie Adams' claim she ran down the back stairs just after the shooting, and saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor.

4-7-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to ask Joe Molina about Vickie Adams even though it has reason to suspect he would confirm Adams' claim she was outside on the front steps within a few minutes of the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to ask Mrs. Avery Davis about Vickie Adams even though it has reason to suspect she would confirm Adams' claim she was outside on the front steps within a few minutes of the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to follow-up and establish the identity of a policeman observed by Vickie Adams just after the shooting, even though the identification of this policeman could help the Commission establish the veracity of Miss Adams' claim she raced down the back stairs just after the shooting, and didn't see Oswald.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to follow-up and clarify the record when Charles Givens testifies to leaving his coat in the domino room upon his arrival at work, but then going back up to the sixth floor to get his jacket after everyone else had left for lunch--a brand new addition to Givens' story that allowed Belin and the Commission to place Oswald in the proximity of the sniper's nest shortly before the shooting.

4-8-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to point out in testimony or subsequently acknowledge that Givens' new story was in conflict with both his previous recollections, and that of his co-workers.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin goes against the precedent established during the testimony of Bonnie Ray Williams and others and allows Charles Givens to dispute the claims of an FBI report--without putting the source of these claims on the record.

4-8-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to follow-up with Givens' 11-22-63 lunch partner, Edward Shields, to see if he will confirm Givens' claim he saw Oswald on the sixth floor around 11:55.

4-8-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney David Belin, the man behind a number of re-enactments, fails to re-enact Givens' purported sighting of Oswald, to see if Givens could actually have seen Oswald where he said he saw him.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Eddie Piper where on the first floor he saw Oswald at 12:00, and thereby conceals from the Commission and public that Piper felt certain he saw Oswald just where Oswald said he was during the lunch period--in the domino room.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Eddie Piper about his discussion with Jack Dougherty, something that was desperately needed for the establishment of Dougherty as the passenger coming down in the west elevator after the shooting.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Jack Dougherty what time he came down for lunch, and thereby conceals that Dougherty had previously claimed he was on the sixth floor until 12, and would thereby have been on the sixth floor when Charles Givens claimed he last saw Oswald.

4-8-64. Warren Commission Attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Jack Dougherty if he called the west elevator to the first floor after lunch, or if it was on the ground floor waiting for him, something that Dougherty may not have remembered, but something that was of vital importance and needed to be asked.

4-8-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to test whether or not a rifle shot from the sixth floor sniper's nest window could have been heard by Jack Dougherty, standing near the opposite end of the building, as a sound coming from above him.

4-8-64--September 1964. Ball, Belin, and the Warren Commission fail to explore the possibility Dougherty went upstairs to work after the shooting, after someone else had taken the west elevator to the ground floor.

4-8-64--September 1964. Attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin and the Warren Commission as a whole fail to acknowledge that their conclusion Jack Dougherty rode the west elevator down to the first floor as Baker and Truly ran upstairs places Dougherty on the fifth floor by the west elevator as Oswald crossed an open stretch of floor before him.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin allows Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer to testify as though Charles Givens' new-found story (about seeing Oswald near the sniper's nest after everyone else had left the sixth floor) had been common knowledge on 11-22-63, when Belin knew this wasn't true.

5-13-64. Dallas Police Detective Jack Revill testifies in support of Givens' new-found story, and offers Dallas Police Detective V. J. Brian as a witness to his discussion with Givens, only to have Warren Commission General Counsel J. Lee Rankin fail to ask Brian about Givens in testimony taken just after Revill dropped his smelly surprise.

5-14-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball cuts off Eddie Piper after Piper volunteers that he has no idea who brought the elevators down just after the shots, and steers him to what he believes is a more productive course--that he failed to see Vickie Adams come down the stairs.

5-14-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball not only fails to ask Eddie Piper the questions about Jack Dougherty he'd claimed in a memo needed to be asked, but uses the failure of Piper to provide answers to these never-asked questions as a means of discrediting him.

5-14-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball inexplicably fails to ask William Shelley about Jack Dougherty's 4-8-64 testimony, in which Dougherty claimed Shelley had told him he saw Oswald with a large package on 11-22-63.

5-19-64. The February 17-18 statements of Vickie Adams, who claimed she raced down the stairs just after the shooting, and Otis Williams, who claimed he raced up to the fourth floor shortly after the shooting (and who later claimed he'd taken the back stairs up to the second floor just after the shooting), are inexplicably missing from a batch of statements taken by the Dallas Police that are only now provided the Warren Commission.

6-4-64--September 1964. Vickie Adams' boss, Dorothy Ann Garner, lets it be known she'd be willing to testify in support of Adams' and Styles' claim they raced down the stairs after the shooting, and goes one step further by claiming she saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs after Adams and Styles ran down the stairs...and is totally blown off by the Warren Commission...

June-64--September 1964. Chapter IV in the Commission's Final report is presented, approved, and sold to the public even though it includes an egregious lie, which, no surprise, helps sell Oswald's guilt. In support of the Commission's conclusion Vickie Adams was mistaken, and that Oswald did in fact race down the stairs within a minute of the shooting, the report claims: "Victoria Adams, who worked on the fourth floor of the Depository Building, claimed that within about 1 minute following the shots she ran from a window on the south side of the fourth floor, down the rear stairs to the first floor, where she encountered two Depository employees--William Shelley and Billy Lovelady. If her estimate of time is correct, she reached the bottom of the stairs before Truly and Baker started up, and she must have run down the stairs ahead of Oswald and would probably have seen or heard him..." It then strikes: "Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they... reentered the building by the REAR door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance".

So where was the lie? I sure hope you caught it.

It was the bit about Shelley and Lovelady re-entering the building through the REAR door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front door. While Shelley and Lovelady both struggled with their time estimates, and thereby helped the Commission in its effort to discredit Adams, they also were consistent in that they both testified--in the testimony the Commission cited by footnote to support they'd re-entered by the rear door, moreover-- to re-entering the building through the side door. By claiming they re-entered the building through the REAR door, instead of the side door, the commission had effectively doubled the distance the men were presumed to have covered in the "several minutes" of their estimate.

Excellent summary. 

That is interesting about the elevator. Maybe the perps just came down the elevator, normal fashion.

What is clear is the WC was a prosecutorial body, making the case a lone gunman assassinated the President. It was not an investigation. 

This alone does not exonerate LHO. A guilty man can go before a kangaroo court. 

But the WC was essentially a politically expedient ex post facto show trial---in so many regards, just a few of which are explicated here by the excellent PS.  

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

4 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Gerry Hemming and others posited that the elevator shaft was used, and was used for that deliberate purpose.

Gerry Hemming?

The 6 ft. 10 inch Gerry Hemming?

What's he doing in this picture?

I think an Oswald trial jury would have been inclined to find Oswald guilty based greatly on the "Back Yard" photos alone.

Where they see Oswald actually holding the rifle found on the 6th floor?

Fellow TXSBD book order filing employees Junior Jarman, Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams kind of froze in the seconds following the shooting they heard just above their heads including ceiling plaster dust falling into their hair from the gun firing concussion force.

I believe I read they were afraid to run right to the stairs and on up to the floor above them or even straight down to the first floor?

Too bad...they were just one floor below.

One reason very possibly being they felt an automatic fear that being black men located right next the shooting floor that maybe they might be considered prime suspects in the hyper-aggressive police activity happening all around them? 

Too bad they didn't go to the stairs in the seconds after the shooting however.

Carolyn Walther may have had the floor number wrong but she was adamant about seeing two men with rifles in one of the open windows minutes before the actual shooting and I have always believed her.

Arnold Rowland ( part time pizza maker and with some knowledge of rifles ) was also a credible witness imo and had clear views of a man holding a high powered rifle in two of the 6th floor windows.

When the Warren Commission chose to tell respected newsman Seth Kantor he was not in his right mind in his under oath account of personally meeting and even speaking to Jack Ruby at Parkland hospital on the early afternoon of 11,22,1963 I decided right there that the hearings were compromised.

They chose to believe the scattered and disjointed rants of Jack Ruby denying being at Parkland that afternoon over the sane, educated and calmly stated claim of Jack Ruby's presence there at that time by reputable newsman Seth Kantor?

Please.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Joe Bauer