Elevators and Electricity

[Ron Bulman]

Inaccessible because it was cut off?  How did two men reportedly seen from the ground, on the sixth floor, get from there to gone.

In the recent thread about The Killing Floor Vicki Adams is quoted as having said the elevator wouldn't work, the electricity was off after she came down the stairs and went outside and came back five minutes later in her estimation.  The fourth floor passenger elevator or the freight elevators?  Irrelevant if the power was still off in the whole building, but not that fact itself?  Somewhere I read Vicki Adams tried that fourth floor elevator before running down the back stairs I think.

In any case we have Geneva Hines in Crossfire stating phones and electricity off before the assassination.

Then Truly pushing the button and yelling up the freight elevator shaft twice before he and Baker give up and run up, to the second floor, and beyond. 

Baker getting to the lunchroom in 90 seconds is preposterous in the first place.  He was way back in the parade when shots were fired at Houston and Main. 

  

[Benjamin Cole]

I agree with the thrust of this post.

This seems like a big deal: Someone turned off the power at the TSBD? 

And like the Secret Service guy flashing credentials on the Grassy Knoll, witnessed by a Dallas cop and a Dallas Sheriff...the lead just vanishes.... 

[Ron Bulman]

I've read a good bit about these subjects over the years and think they might be interrelated.  Much of the info was scattered.  After the recent post about Vicki Adams saying the elevator wouldn't work when she came back in after five minutes I went looking.  My 70 or so books on the top two shelves?  Not much I could find.  Jim Marrs, Crossfire, Geneva Hines covering the phones, them and electricity out at the time or the assassination.

Then I thought of Bart Kamp's essay on the second floor encounter which I'd read parts of.  Might it have mentioned the elevators and electricity?  Yes, it does, the elevators in particular.

Pg. 39.  Statement'S that employee'S said the power was off to all the elevators.

Pg. 47.  Truly pushed the (west/"automatic") freight elevator button.  Nothing happened.  Then he yelled into the shaft to send the elevator down.  Nothing.  Then he yelled again.  He, and Baker at some point stuck their heads in the shaft and looked up to see them stuck several floors up.  This all took time. 

Pg. 49.  Big One.  Sandra Styles in email to Sean Murphy says Vicki Adams said she saw the (freight) elevator cables moving, as she descended the stairs.

Pgs. 50-52.  Another Big One.  "Myster of the West Elevator".  Letter from Norman Redlich of the Warren Commission to his superiors, never acted on.

Anatomy of the second floor lunch room encounter Aug 27 2017-by_Bart Kamp.pdf (prayer-man.com)

Thoughts on electricity and more later. 

[Denny Zartman]

I think this is a good and important topic, Ron. Thanks for posting it and doing so much research.

Weren't the circuit breakers and Truly's office both on the first floor near the first floor lunchroom, or am I misremembering the layout of the building?

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Denny Zartman said:

I think this is a good and important topic, Ron. Thanks for posting it and doing so much research.

Weren't the circuit breakers and Truly's office both on the first floor near the first floor lunchroom, or am I misremembering the layout of the building?

Is it possible LHO cut the power to the TSBD? 

[Paul Cummings]

Wasn't the power out at Dal-Tex as well?

[Nick Bartetzko]

12 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I've read a good bit about these subjects over the years and think they might be interrelated.  Much of the info was scattered.  After the recent post about Vicki Adams saying the elevator wouldn't work when she came back in after five minutes I went looking.  My 70 or so books on the top two shelves?  Not much I could find.  Jim Marrs, Crossfire, Geneva Hines covering the phones, them and electricity out at the time or the assassination.

Then I thought of Bart Kamp's essay on the second floor encounter which I'd read parts of.  Might it have mentioned the elevators and electricity?  Yes, it does, the elevators in particular.

Pg. 39.  Statement'S that employee'S said the power was off to all the elevators.

Pg. 47.  Truly pushed the (west/"automatic") freight elevator button.  Nothing happened.  Then he yelled into the shaft to send the elevator down.  Nothing.  Then he yelled again.  He, and Baker at some point stuck their heads in the shaft and looked up to see them stuck several floors up.  This all took time. 

Pg. 49.  Big One.  Sandra Styles in email to Sean Murphy says Vicki Adams said she saw the (freight) elevator cables moving, as she descended the stairs.

Pgs. 50-52.  Another Big One.  "Myster of the West Elevator".  Letter from Norman Redlich of the Warren Commission to his superiors, never acted on.

Anatomy of the second floor lunch room encounter Aug 27 2017-by_Bart Kamp.pdf (prayer-man.com)

Thoughts on electricity and more later. 

The reference to page 47 is interesting as it casts doubt on Gerry Hemming’s mention of using a rope under the elevator to descend. I would think a dangling rope might warrant a comment by either Truly or Baker. The other point is there were two men on the 6th floor. One was seen at the back of the building. So it appears they did not stay together and went their separate ways. It would be an interesting and intensive project to evaluate all of Hemming’s statements over the years and try and separate fact from fiction. 

[Paul Cummings]

I think they would use something a little more sophisticated than rope to get the hell out the TSBD elevator shafts. 

[Mark Knight]

Unless my memory is faulty, Wes Frazier said that after the assassination, he went to the basement of the TSBD to eat his lunch.

And I believe that long ago, someone mentioned that there were circuit breakers in a panel in the basement.

What did or didn't occur in the basement next to those circuit breakers is all speculation, as there are no witnesses to what did or didn't occur. But at one time or another, these questions were asked on this very forum.

[Ron Bulman]

19 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I think this is a good and important topic, Ron. Thanks for posting it and doing so much research.

Weren't the circuit breakers and Truly's office both on the first floor near the first floor lunchroom, or am I misremembering the layout of the building?

Truly's office was for sure.  I'm not sure about the breaker boxes, I once thought I was.  Below Mark mentions Wes Fraizer eating lunch in the basement and wondering about breakers there.  I've never read about that.  But I have seen an FBI photo of the N/E corner of the TSBD 1st floor which does show what I thought were breaker boxes next to the bathroom, domino/break room and the walk through door onto the back dock.  I can't find the picture itself now alone but found it in an interesting video.  I'll try to capture the picture and link the video.  This has been discussed before with the picture displayed, it's been a while though.  I think Larry Hancock may have identified them as telephone line panels based on personal experience or maybe he was telling someone they were not such.  

If breaker boxes were located towards the back of the first floor it makes the two guys Baker mentions passing on the first floor even more interesting.  I've wondered why he didn't mention asking Truly if they were employees. 

 My attempt to capture failed.  It's picture # 5 of the first floor at 5:00 minutes into this video.  The video shows the whole series of FBI photos of the TSBD, including the freight elevators on the first floor.

 

[Ron Bulman]

11 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Truly's office was for sure.  I'm not sure about the breaker boxes, I once thought I was.  Below Mark mentions Wes Fraizer eating lunch in the basement and wondering about breakers there.  I've never read about that.  But I have seen an FBI photo of the N/E corner of the TSBD 1st floor which does show what I thought were breaker boxes next to the bathroom, domino/break room and the walk through door onto the back dock.  I can't find the picture itself now alone but found it in an interesting video.  I'll try to capture the picture and link the video.  This has been discussed before with the picture displayed, it's been a while though.  I think Larry Hancock may have identified them as telephone line panels based on personal experience or maybe he was telling someone they were not such.  

If breaker boxes were located towards the back of the first floor it makes the two guys Baker mentions passing on the first floor even more interesting.  I've wondered why he didn't mention asking Truly if they were employees. 

 My attempt to capture failed.  It's picture # 5 of the first floor at 5:00 minutes into this video.  The video shows the whole series of FBI photos of the TSBD, including the freight elevators on the first floor.

 

Picture number 7 at 5:29 is of the stairs Truly led Baker up after yelling up the shaft of the elevator (not seen in this picture) to the right.

I was wrong about this showing the East and West freight elevators.  It also does not show the adjacent overhead doors to each side as depicted in the first floor diagrams and pictures from the outside.  They kind of overdose on the domino room but seem to (purposefully?) overlook the elevators and overhead doors.

[Nick Bartetzko]

On 10/20/2022 at 12:07 PM, Paul Cummings said:

I think they would use something a little more sophisticated than rope to get the hell out the TSBD elevator shafts. 

I might agree with you on that, but I mentioned it because Hemmings mentioned it and we still don’t have a reasonable answer on how the two 6th floor occupants escaped. It seems to me these possibilities are worth discussing, especially because I suspect GPH may have been involved or had knowledge of the assassination. 

[Paul Cummings]

1 hour ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

I might agree with you on that, but I mentioned it because Hemmings mentioned it and we still don’t have a reasonable answer on how the two 6th floor occupants escaped. It seems to me these possibilities are worth discussing, especially because I suspect GPH may have been involved or had knowledge of the assassination. 

Think of Mt. Climbers of how they might have drop down the elevator shafts. Can't take ropes nor leave them behind but a utility belt in dropping down is my likely scenerio. 

[Ron Bulman]

On 10/19/2022 at 11:53 PM, Ron Bulman said:

I've read a good bit about these subjects over the years and think they might be interrelated.  Much of the info was scattered.  After the recent post about Vicki Adams saying the elevator wouldn't work when she came back in after five minutes I went looking.  My 70 or so books on the top two shelves?  Not much I could find.  Jim Marrs, Crossfire, Geneva Hines covering the phones, them and electricity out at the time or the assassination.

Then I thought of Bart Kamp's essay on the second floor encounter which I'd read parts of.  Might it have mentioned the elevators and electricity?  Yes, it does, the elevators in particular.

Pg. 39.  Statement'S that employee'S said the power was off to all the elevators.

Pg. 47.  Truly pushed the (west/"automatic") freight elevator button.  Nothing happened.  Then he yelled into the shaft to send the elevator down.  Nothing.  Then he yelled again.  He, and Baker at some point stuck their heads in the shaft and looked up to see them stuck several floors up.  This all took time. 

Pg. 49.  Big One.  Sandra Styles in email to Sean Murphy says Vicki Adams said she saw the (freight) elevator cables moving, as she descended the stairs.

Pgs. 50-52.  Another Big One.  "Myster of the West Elevator".  Letter from Norman Redlich of the Warren Commission to his superiors, never acted on.

Anatomy of the second floor lunch room encounter Aug 27 2017-by_Bart Kamp.pdf (prayer-man.com)

Thoughts on electricity and more later. 

I think # 49 is the really big one.  If Vicki Adams told Sandra Styles the elevator cables were moving during their descent that's a game changer.  Someone(s) were on the way down in the elevator at the same time as them.  Between 30 seconds and a minute after shot's were fired.  With the electricity off?

Arriving on the first floor shortly before or after they did.  As Redlich wrote to his superiors, the West elevator deserved more investigation. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[Nick Bartetzko]

6 hours ago, Paul Cummings said:

Think of Mt. Climbers of how they might have drop down the elevator shafts. Can't take ropes nor leave them behind but a utility belt in dropping down is my likely scenerio. 

Could you elaborate please. A utility belt would attach to what?