The 2nd-Floor Baker/Oswald Encounter Has Been Debunked

[Ron Ege]

1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

I'm agnostic also, there might be another variable here, and also with the encounter on the second floor that is the 'Second Oswald' that seems to be at the TSBD (also the rambler sighting) possibly at the Tippit shooting and at the Texas Theater.

 

That's why I don't think we can call the encounter "Debunked" yet, because there seems to be some kind of shell game going on with Oswald that stops when he gets arrested. 

A point was made earlier that perhaps Oswald went to the theatre, killing a little time if I remember, before meeting Marina and Ruth to accompany them on a shopping trip.  So, one would posit that the rendezvous has been prearranged the evening before, right?  Did not Lee leave that morning before anyone else was awake?  I guess Marina and he could've quickly discussed it that morning.

If so, arriving at the theatre at one to one-thirty for a double feature, he probably would've finished watching the flicks around his usual TSBD quitting time, which would coincide with a late afternoon shopping trip with the ladies.

But it that was the case, why did Oswald determine it important to take his "Pistola" with him?  Expecting trouble during the shopping trip?

Of course, then we get into - whether or not the gun was his or was it planted?

We have the second-floor encounter/no encounter, outside the TSBD/inside during the shooting, the "Rambler Man"/or not, the bus/no bus, the cab ride and dropped off "here or there",  the DPD cruiser "toot/no toot", standing on the corner/or not, walking east/walking west when stopped, witnesses reporting look alike/not look alike shooter and/or more than one, the mysterious, discarded jacket subsequent to the Tippit shooting, Oswald's wallet found/not found at the scene, arriving at the TSBD very shortly after one (didn't shoot Tippit)/arriving later (was the shooter), theater ticket/no ticket, popcorn/no popcorn, sitting right next to others and then moving on/or not, his gun/not his gun.  Seemingly, it goes on and on, and I am sure I'm missing some. The shells, the bus transfer or not . . . .

Oswald's overall behavior/actions, almost immediately following the assassination, until the moment that he was arrested, appears, upon review. anomalous, at best. 

The question is why.

IMO, the answer is that Lee realized he didn't know what he didn't know and was trying to determine exactly what that was - whether or not he was there at the TT to meet someone (handler?) or he just reasoned that it was a convenient quiet, dark place to ruminate, collecting his thoughts before making his next move.

Matthew, you make a great point, which I believe, is key.  Prior to Oswald's arrest, other "actors" were "pulling strings" - which were invisible - and still, to the greatest extent, still are.  Once Ozzie was in custody, the already established phony "evidence" would be surfaced by the "players", along with more of the same, conveniently supplied by the DPD, FBI, and the CIA, just to name three.  Thank you.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

36 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

A point was made earlier that perhaps Oswald went to the theatre, killing a little time if I remember, before meeting Marina and Ruth to accompany them on a shopping trip.  So, one would posit that the rendezvous has been prearranged the evening before, right?  Did not Lee leave that morning before anyone else was awake?  I guess Marina and he could've quickly discussed it that morning.

If so, arriving at the theatre at one to one-thirty for a double feature, he probably would've finished watching the flicks around his usual TSBD quitting time, which would coincide with a late afternoon shopping trip with the ladies.

But it that was the case, why did Oswald determine it important to take his "Pistola" with him?  Expecting trouble during the shopping trip?

Ron, neither Marina nor Ruth ever mentioned anything about a planned shopping trip with Lee.. so I don't see how this theory holds any water. Lee left his wedding ring and all the money he had in the world on the dresser at Ruth's house before he left for the TSBD on 11/22/1963. Are these the actions of someone who expected to return to his family as normal later that day?

[Ron Ege]

Joathan, I may have been misspoken/misremembered?  What I meant to convey was that I thought that someone in one of the threads had surface the idea that Oswald may have been biding time in the TT, until he was to meet Ruth and Marina, somewhere.  I hope I did not imply that was any kind of a theory by me, let alone a truism

Relative to the money left, didn't the WR also mention Oswald's wallet as being left on the dresser, too?  If so, then we get into "how many wallets did he own" discussion.  Arrgh!

I will admit that for me, if what we've read about the number of 'em is factual, even if he had just one additional, that seems a little suspicious, in and of itself.

No Sherlock am I, but if Lee left just the $170/$180 cash, that would be understandable to me - for family support.  Ostensibly, he still had enough money that day for a coke, bus/cab ride, and popcorn (if we believe that part of the TT visit).  And maybe also, he saved a few bucks for himself for incidentals?  He did not necessarily have to be dead broke.  Admittedly, I don't remember how much money was found on his person after his arrest.

If Oswald left the wallet too (much discussion about that, for sure), maybe he simply forgot it?  I've forgotten mine, many times.  I don't believe that it's totally out of the question.

The wedding ring left.

Good question.  Over the years, I removed mine many, many times for various reasons - swollen finger from an in home/at work injury, undertaking a task where it would be dangerous to wear one, especially if I had been made aware the previous day of certain work tasks the next day, and then forgetting to put it back on, etc.  More than once I removed my ring to clean it, got distracted, didn't, forgot, and left home that day - or even after the next day for work, without it.  "Stuff happens" category, I guess.

There were rumors that Marina and Lee were not getting along.  Did they have a tiff, and he was making a point?  Dunno.

Theorizing was not the intent of the post - more like supposition, reviewing the "this happened that day/no it didn't" reports/evidence and the therefore, still apparent confusion as to what was really taking place on 11/22/63, causing Ozzie to take the actions/make the trip he did.  IOW, thinking out loud that there's a lot of "stuff" out there that's been waded through over almost 60 years, leaving us with so many unanswered questions - leaving in their wake, hypotheses, theories, suppositions, ruminations, etc. - along with now decided facts, IMO, those due to a lot of hard work, by many here.

I do not have a theory.  I attempt to read and learn from others more learned here than am I (including you), asking questions and surfacing suppositions for comments, hoping to learn more.

Relative to your question - I cannot know for sure, of course.

Maybe all the stars aligned negatively that day for Lee, and regardless of what we know/think we know and/or has been reported/put in evidence - that Oswald was actually just an innocent, unsuspecting "Joe Blow" (no military intel/CIA/FBi affiliations) going to work that day, as usual, no nefarious deeds in mind - or at the other extreme, he really was the "Lone Nut Assassin" that some believe him to have been.

It seems that most here believe him to have fallen somewhere in between, I'm gathering.  I'm inclined to agree.

Of course, I'm obviously just guessing, but again, I've come to believe that very shortly after the assassination, Ozzie came to realize that there would be some sort of previously unanticipated trouble for him, soon ahead - the amelioration/obviation of which - was not completely in his hands.

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Ron Ege

[James DiEugenio]

Ron:

You are correct.  The money left was because Oswald was trying to build up a stash to rent their own apartment.  And it is highly doubtful there was a ring there.  Greg Parker did a nice job on this piece of mythology.

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/was-there-a-wedding-ring

[Ron Ege]

Jim, thank you for the confirmation, relating exactly why Lee left the money; I do recall, now.

Relative to the ring, I always thought that was odd.  I'll read Greg Parker's piece.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

According to the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis (the most official-sounding site I stumbled across in a quick online search), $1 in 1963 would be worth $9.61 in 2022.

If the amount Oswald left on the dresser was $170-$180, that would be the equivalent of around $1,600-$1,700 in today's money. This was clearly his savings, not just some cash for day-to-day expenses. We know that he and Marina had discussed renting their own accommodation, and wanted one of those new-fangled washing machines.

He wouldn't have taken that amount of cash with him to work every day. Nor would he have stored the money in a poorly secured room in a boarding house full of short-term tenants with unknown backgrounds. There really is nothing suspicious about Oswald leaving the money in a secure house with people he (presumably) trusted not to steal it.

On a more general note, this thread illustrates a common problem among those who criticise the lone-nut idea. The problem is in taking each piece of evidence put forward by lone-nut supporters and assuming there must be a conspiratorial explanation for that evidence. But those conspiratorial explanations can be just as unfounded as the lone-nut explanations.

Oswald left his cash behind! That means he wasn't expecting to return, which means he was actively involved in the assassination plot!

Oswald was on the first floor, eating his lunch in the domino room! That means he was keeping an eye out for his fellow conspirators, so that they could sneak into the building without being spotted! And it means there was an Oswald lookalike impostor on the sixth floor who must have been a Hungarian doppelganger who underwent a fake mastoidectomy operation at the age of six in a hospital that hadn't been built yet!

Oswald went to the Texas Theater! That means he was trying to hide from the cops! And he sat next to two different people! That means he was looking for a fellow conspirator who was going to whisk him out of the country!

And so on. But maybe these and other items of evidence are indicators neither of guilt nor of conspiracy.

Maybe leaving his money behind was the sensible thing to do. Maybe eating his lunch alone, and popping out to watch the parade at the last minute, was consistent with his character; he was a solitary sort of person who disliked crowds. Maybe going to see a film was a reasonable way to occupy some time before surprising Marina and Ruth during their visit to one of the nearby shoe shops. Maybe he briefly popped out of the cinema to check if they were already in one of those shoe shops, before going back inside.

Of course, it's possible that Oswald did play an active role of some sort, but this is far from certain and shouldn't be assumed to be the case.

Given that any explanation of this meagre evidence will require speculation, we should at least consider the possibility that the simplest explanation is correct: Oswald had no active involvement in the assassination, and he had no idea until his arrest that he would be under suspicion, or even that JFK had been killed.

[Ron Ege]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

According to the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis (the most official-sounding site I stumbled across in a quick online search), $1 in 1963 would be worth $9.61 in 2022.

If the amount Oswald left on the dresser was $170-$180, that would be the equivalent of around $1,600-$1,700 in today's money. This was clearly his savings, not just some cash for day-to-day expenses. We know that he and Marina had discussed renting their own accommodation, and wanted one of those new-fangled washing machines.

He wouldn't have taken that amount of cash with him to work every day. Nor would he have stored the money in a poorly secured room in a boarding house full of short-term tenants with unknown backgrounds. There really is nothing suspicious about Oswald leaving the money in a secure house with people he (presumably) trusted not to steal it.

On a more general note, this thread illustrates a common problem among those who criticise the lone-nut idea. The problem is in taking each piece of evidence put forward by lone-nut supporters and assuming there must be a conspiratorial explanation for that evidence. But those conspiratorial explanations can be just as unfounded as the lone-nut explanations.

Oswald left his cash behind! That means he wasn't expecting to return, which means he was actively involved in the assassination plot!

Oswald was on the first floor, eating his lunch in the domino room! That means he was keeping an eye out for his fellow conspirators, so that they could sneak into the building without being spotted! And it means there was an Oswald lookalike impostor on the sixth floor who must have been a Hungarian doppelganger who underwent a fake mastoidectomy operation at the age of six in a hospital that hadn't been built yet!

Oswald went to the Texas Theater! That means he was trying to hide from the cops! And he sat next to two different people! That means he was looking for a fellow conspirator who was going to whisk him out of the country!

And so on. But maybe these and other items of evidence are indicators neither of guilt nor of conspiracy.

Maybe leaving his money behind was the sensible thing to do. Maybe eating his lunch alone, and popping out to watch the parade at the last minute, was consistent with his character; he was a solitary sort of person who disliked crowds. Maybe going to see a film was a reasonable way to occupy some time before surprising Marina and Ruth during their visit to one of the nearby shoe shops. Maybe he briefly popped out of the cinema to check if they were already in one of those shoe shops, before going back inside.

Of course, it's possible that Oswald did play an active role of some sort, but this is far from certain and shouldn't be assumed to be the case.

Given that any explanation of this meagre evidence will require speculation, we should at least consider the possibility that the simplest explanation is correct: Oswald had no active involvement in the assassination, and he had no idea until his arrest that he would be under suspicion, or even that JFK had been killed.

Jeremy, interesting.

Could you please expand on your line of thought - re your last paragraph?

Thanks.

[Denny Zartman]

It seems clear that someone believed Oswald had to be silenced, so it appears reasonable to infer that he had some information that couldn't get out or that he could incriminate others.

According to the official record of his alleged movements after the assassination, he was headed in the direction of Jack Ruby's apartment when he allegedly crossed paths with Tippit.

Coincidence?

[Gene Kelly]

On 11/3/2022 at 11:18 PM, Paul Cummings said:

Odd that Oswald was willing to buy popcorn but snuck into the theatre without paying.

Paul

My take on the popcorn is that it makes him look less conspicuous when he is seated in the theater (ostensibly waiting for a contact). Butch Burroughs told Jim Marrs that Julia Postal had sold Oswald a ticket but didn't mention him (Burroughs) checking it.  In Burrough's interview with James Douglas (in "JFK and the Unspeakable"), he stated that Oswald bought popcorn from the concession stand at 1.15 pm.

Mr. BURROUGHS. During the week I worked behind the concession. On weekends I usher.

BALL. During the afternoon of the week-do you take tickets too?  BURROUGHS. Yes-I take tickets every day.

Mr. BALL. And, run the concession? Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, run them off? Mr. BURROUGHS. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.

Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre? Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn’t. Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was-I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise. I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.

Theater patron Jack Davis told Jim Marrs said that only minutes past 1:00 pm, during the opening credits of the first movie, he was startled by a man who squeezed past him and sat down in the seat next to him. This man moved around in the theater and eventually got up and walked toward the lobby. Eventually, the man (later identified as Oswald) came back and sat in the center section.  There is no evidence that Burroughs ever provided an official statement ...  no interview of him by either the Dallas Police or FBI, and no mention of him in the Warren Report.

Gene

[Paul Cummings]

1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

Paul

My take on the popcorn is that it makes him look less conspicuous when he is seated in the theater (ostensibly waiting for a contact). Butch Burroughs told Jim Marrs that Julia Postal had sold Oswald a ticket but didn't mention him (Burroughs) checking it.  In Burrough's interview with James Douglas (in "JFK and the Unspeakable"), he stated that Oswald bought popcorn from the concession stand at 1.15 pm.

Mr. BURROUGHS. During the week I worked behind the concession. On weekends I usher.

BALL. During the afternoon of the week-do you take tickets too?  BURROUGHS. Yes-I take tickets every day.

Mr. BALL. And, run the concession? Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, run them off? Mr. BURROUGHS. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.

Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre? Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn’t. Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was-I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise. I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.

Theater patron Jack Davis told Jim Marrs said that only minutes past 1:00 pm, during the opening credits of the first movie, he was startled by a man who squeezed past him and sat down in the seat next to him. This man moved around in the theater and eventually got up and walked toward the lobby. Eventually, the man (later identified as Oswald) came back and sat in the center section.  There is no evidence that Burroughs ever provided an official statement ...  no interview of him by either the Dallas Police or FBI, and no mention of him in the Warren Report.

Gene

People have said he went into the theatre to avoid detection by not paying. What I'm saying once he's inside his actions are anything but to avoid being noticed.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Paul Cummings

[Ron Ege]

39 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

People have said he went into the theatre to avoid detection by not paying. What I'm saying once he's inside his actions are anything but to avoid being noticed.

Paul, thanks.  Exactly.

Paying or not paying - if Oswald did indeed sit right next to Jack Davis, who seems very credible), that in itself is very odd.  Then Davis noticed Lee "moving around in the theatre", plus the report (from whom?) that Lee then sat next to at least one other person, a pregnant woman at that - which is really much more than odd. 

If all factual, Oswald's behavior bespeaks of a guy very focused on identifying a particular patron because he believed that he, Lee, believed that he was in some sort of "trick", and it was fairly imperative to him to locate that "contact" for help. 

Would anyone here be interested in opining, assuming the above, if Oswald had the opportunity to make a phone call before leaving the TSBD?  Or was it more likely that the "meet" was a contingency that was prearranged? 

[Paul Cummings]

24 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

Paul, thanks.  Exactly.

Paying or not paying - if Oswald did indeed sit right next to Jack Davis, who seems very credible), that in itself is very odd.  Then Davis noticed Lee "moving around in the theatre", plus the report (from whom?) that Lee then sat next to at least one other person, a pregnant woman at that - which is really much more than odd. 

If all factual, Oswald's behavior bespeaks of a guy very focused on identifying a particular patron because he believed that he, Lee, believed that he was in some sort of "trick", and it was fairly imperative to him to locate that "contact" for help. 

Would anyone here be interested in opining, assuming the above, if Oswald had the opportunity to make a phone call before leaving the TSBD?  Or was it more likely that the "meet" was a contingency that was prearranged? 

Given time he left TSBD,  people wanting to use the phones, IMO he didn't use the phone.

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

Paul, thanks.  Exactly.

Paying or not paying - if Oswald did indeed sit right next to Jack Davis, who seems very credible), that in itself is very odd.  Then Davis noticed Lee "moving around in the theatre", plus the report (from whom?) that Lee then sat next to at least one other person, a pregnant woman at that - which is really much more than odd. 

If all factual, Oswald's behavior bespeaks of a guy very focused on identifying a particular patron because he believed that he, Lee, believed that he was in some sort of "trick", and it was fairly imperative to him to locate that "contact" for help. 

Would anyone here be interested in opining, assuming the above, if Oswald had the opportunity to make a phone call before leaving the TSBD?  Or was it more likely that the "meet" was a contingency that was prearranged? 

Or... he sat down next to people so that someone taking a quick look--like a policeman--might think he was with that person, as opposed to sitting by himself. 

[Paul Cummings]

33 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Or... he sat down next to people so that someone taking a quick look--like a policeman--might think he was with that person, as opposed to sitting by himself. 

Except he moved multiple times in the theatre and he was assuming the police would show up?

[Michael Griffith]

On 11/5/2022 at 5:56 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

According to the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis (the most official-sounding site I stumbled across in a quick online search), $1 in 1963 would be worth $9.61 in 2022.

If the amount Oswald left on the dresser was $170-$180, that would be the equivalent of around $1,600-$1,700 in today's money. This was clearly his savings, not just some cash for day-to-day expenses. We know that he and Marina had discussed renting their own accommodation, and wanted one of those new-fangled washing machines.

He wouldn't have taken that amount of cash with him to work every day. Nor would he have stored the money in a poorly secured room in a boarding house full of short-term tenants with unknown backgrounds. There really is nothing suspicious about Oswald leaving the money in a secure house with people he (presumably) trusted not to steal it.

On a more general note, this thread illustrates a common problem among those who criticise the lone-nut idea. The problem is in taking each piece of evidence put forward by lone-nut supporters and assuming there must be a conspiratorial explanation for that evidence. But those conspiratorial explanations can be just as unfounded as the lone-nut explanations.

Oswald left his cash behind! That means he wasn't expecting to return, which means he was actively involved in the assassination plot!

Oswald was on the first floor, eating his lunch in the domino room! That means he was keeping an eye out for his fellow conspirators, so that they could sneak into the building without being spotted! And it means there was an Oswald lookalike impostor on the sixth floor who must have been a Hungarian doppelganger who underwent a fake mastoidectomy operation at the age of six in a hospital that hadn't been built yet!

Oswald went to the Texas Theater! That means he was trying to hide from the cops! And he sat next to two different people! That means he was looking for a fellow conspirator who was going to whisk him out of the country!

And so on. But maybe these and other items of evidence are indicators neither of guilt nor of conspiracy.

Maybe leaving his money behind was the sensible thing to do. Maybe eating his lunch alone, and popping out to watch the parade at the last minute, was consistent with his character; he was a solitary sort of person who disliked crowds. Maybe going to see a film was a reasonable way to occupy some time before surprising Marina and Ruth during their visit to one of the nearby shoe shops. Maybe he briefly popped out of the cinema to check if they were already in one of those shoe shops, before going back inside.

Of course, it's possible that Oswald did play an active role of some sort, but this is far from certain and shouldn't be assumed to be the case.

Given that any explanation of this meagre evidence will require speculation, we should at least consider the possibility that the simplest explanation is correct: Oswald had no active involvement in the assassination, and he had no idea until his arrest that he would be under suspicion, or even that JFK had been killed.

I wonder how Red Bird Airport figures into all of this. Two days before the assassination, Oswald, or his double, showed up at the airport with a man and a woman. The couple asked about renting a plane. 

On the day of the assassination, because of a 1:30 PM FBI notice to report suspicious activities, a tower operator at the airport became so suspicious of an aircraft on the runway that he made several calls to the FBI. The plane had remained ready for takeoff for some time and departed only after news of Oswald's arrest was announced. After taking off, the plane reversed course from its stated departure path and flew south instead of north.

A bus that included Red Bird Airport on its route had a bus stop in Oswald's neighborhood of central Oak Cliff.