Oswald's Escorts: The Garrison Files

[James DiEugenio]

The Odio visit has always been one of the bitterest stones in the throats of the Oswald did it crowd. 

I think there is little or no doubt it happened.  Even Bugliosi, who wrote a book that was full of malarkey, had to admit it occurred.

There are two questions about it that are outstanding: 1.) Was it really Oswald, and 2.) Was it a way of incriminating Oswald with a more liberal group of Cuban exiles, the JURE group.

I don't think its really possible to answer the first question. But since I have come to think Oswald did not go to Mexico City, I would lean in favor of it being the real Oswald. 

As per the second question,I think that is what the motive was.  Which would seem to indicate that a group within the reactionary Cuban exiles knew JFK was going to be killed.  The question is: How did they know?  And please note the fact, Nagell also knew.  And he was not a part of that group.

Edited December 8, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Larry Hancock]

As I recall it Nagell said that Oswald was contacted by anti-Castro Cubans who were contacting Oswald in the guise of Castro agents, in an attempt to use him for some purpose of their own.   Nagell knew they were bogus as he had been aware of them in Miami and the groups they were associated with and knew them to be anti-Castro.  He said he warned Oswald that he was running the risk of being used.

He warned Oswald to break away from them but that was not happening and Nagell literally fled New Orleans because he felt the Cubans were on to him and were a real time threat to him.

 

[James DiEugenio]

I think that is accurate as far as it goes.

The combination of the Odio incident and Nagell's experience I think is very telling as to an impending plot that several people knew about.

[Matt Allison]

On 12/7/2022 at 12:33 PM, David Boylan said:

After looking at these questions, Larry and I came up with two sets of individuals. The first set was Carlos Hernandez (Angel?) and Victor Espinosa Hernandez (Leopoldo?).

I'd be curious to know the other set

A barely legible small photo of Victor here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=52163#relPageId=3

FWIW, in 1976 Schweiker and a staffer questioned SAS honcho Harold Swenson about Victor and asked him whether Hernandez had come up in the investigation into the Kennedy assassination. So it would seem there's been some suspicion out there for a while now.

[Matt Allison]

Victor's HSCA testimony:

https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov-2017/docid-32246514.pdf

[Matt Allison]

9 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

As I recall it Nagell said that Oswald was contacted by anti-Castro Cubans who were contacting Oswald in the guise of Castro agents, in an attempt to use him for some purpose of their own.   Nagell knew they were bogus as he had been aware of them in Miami and the groups they were associated with and knew them to be anti-Castro.  He said he warned Oswald that he was running the risk of being used.

He warned Oswald to break away from them but that was not happening and Nagell literally fled New Orleans because he felt the Cubans were on to him and were a real time threat to him.

 

Recall also that Nagell claimed one of the two had been involved with violence against the Cuban embassy in Mexico City.

Which brings me to this post of yours about a Hernandez mentioned in SWHT; so I wonder if there's a connection there?

 

[Larry Hancock]

Hi Matt,  actually David discussed the other "set" in extreme detail in both our recent presentations to the DPUK and at the Lancer virtual conference.  I will leave it to him to toss out the names, which go back to New Orleans and who are extremely important in understanding Oswald's earliest activities in New Orleans.  They are new in the Odio context and likely not all that familiar although I do discuss both of them at some length in Tipping Point.

As to Victor, yes I'm pretty sure I mentioned the Mexico background in the appendix (Student Warrior) in Someone Would Have Talked.  For a number of reasons, including being in an assassination team in Havana during the revolution, it seemed especially interesting. So that Victor Hernandez is the same fellow that David and I are talking about along with Carlos in the Odio context.

For unknown reasons Victor seems to drop off the radar at the end of 1963, having been very active through the summer as part of the abortive McClaney bombing mission.  The only real sign we have of him is as a person of interest in the Odio visit and then the next time he turns up he is overseas, possibly with drug connections and in France.  He seems to have taken himself out of the picture and does not go on to participate in further anti-Castro efforts over the years as did several of his compatriots. 

 

[David Boylan]

6 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

I'd be curious to know the other set

A barely legible small photo of Victor here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=52163#relPageId=3

FWIW, in 1976 Schweiker and a staffer questioned SAS honcho Harold Swenson about Victor and asked him whether Hernandez had come up in the investigation into the Kennedy assassination. So it would seem there's been some suspicion out there for a while now.

Matt,

There is a photo of Victor further up this thread.

Both sets of possible Odio visitors have their strengths and weaknesses. Carlos and Victor fit the description fairly closely. Carlos was a member of JURE during the critical time. Victor was not. Carlos had his POA with the CIA, Victor did not. Victor's brother Rene fit some of the Oswald escort sightings.

The other set would be the Rodriguez brothers, Arnesto and Emilio. Here we tied Arnesto directly to Banister, Oswald, and Bringuier. Emilio was a member of the counterintelligence group for SAS and JMWAVE. He connects directly to David Morales, Tony Sforza, Rip Robertson and David Phillips. 

There was a major effort to recruit Mexico City Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue before he was scheduled to return to Havana Oct 4, 1963. Tony Sforza was tasked with getting his and Emilio's asset Jose Casas (AMOT-106) to make a final pitch to Azcue to get him to defect either in place or come to the US. We know that failed. 

In this world of coincidences, we know that "Oswald" met with Azcue and somehow knew that Azcue was going back to Havana during his short visit.

Here you can see Sylvia Odio's uncle going down the stairs. Around 9-15 seconds in you see Oswald giving the hairy eyeball, in order, to Carlos Bringuier, Arnesto Rodriguez, Emilio Rodriguez and who I believe to be Arnesto Sr.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by David Boylan

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 12/8/2022 at 1:52 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Yeah, that makes sense.

What I can't figure out is how "Oswald's" visit with Sylvia Odio makes him look like a Castro sympathizer. Or how it is supposed to implicate Castro in the assassination.

Anybody have any good ideas?

 

Sandy,

I have pointed out before that the Odio visit actually has two distinct parts: the actual visit by ("Leopoldo", "Angel" and "Oswald") and the follow-up phone call, a couple of days later, and the distinction is the key.

During the actual visit to Sylvia Odio, our "Oswald" said nothing, and nor did his companions insinuate to Sylvia that our "Oswald" was a crazy, anti-JFK nut, capable of assassination. Instead, they focused solely on enlisting Sylvia's help.  However, I suspect the real purpose of the visit (not the phone call) was to visually show our "Oswald" to Syliva - for her to see him and be able to recognize him later. (There must have been something sinister in their manner, because Sylvia did not take the bait - she refused to help the men without checking with her father.)

This all tells me that our "Oswald" did not know (as he was standing in the doorway at that moment) that his companions would soon portray him as a violent potential assassin. He probably thought he was spying on these men, and would soon report back to his handler (in the FBI, maybe?)  about their supposed plans.

However, "Leopoldo" and "Angel" were on to him. They already knew he was an (FBI?) snitch. I suspect their CIA handlers had already tipped them off about our "Oswald's" true allegiances. That's why they hated him.

And so, a day or two later, the incriminating phone call was made, and only then did the crazy, murderous image of our "Oswald" emerge, forever implanted in the mind of Sylvia Odio. 

We have no evidence that our "Oswald" ever knew that he was supposed to be an insane JFK-hater, ready to shoot him. I am certain that our "Oswald" was NOT within earshot when the later phone call to Sylvia was made. 

The phone call is key - without it, the Odio visit might have been dismissed as merely another mistaken witness contact with someone who resembled our man.

You are absolutely right that if our "Oswald" knowingly planned to impersonate a potential assassin, then he would have acted accordingly in Sylvia's presence. But he did not, and that meant he did not know what his companions would soon say about him!

And that tells me that the "Oswald" visitor to the Odio apartment in late September was indeed our "Oswald", Marina's husband, the man murdered by Jack Ruby, all one-in-the-same.

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 12/8/2022 at 6:28 AM, David Boylan said:

You forgot "Angel/Angelo"

 

Oops. I confused the name Angelo with Leon. Of course, Leon was Leon Oswald.

 

Documented Descriptions:

Carlos:     Age ??     5' 7.5"     185 lb     Stocky     Cyst over left eye.

Victor:     Age 25     5' 10"     170 lb

 

Odio Descriptions:

Leopoldo:     Age 40     5' 10"     165 lb

Angelo:     ~Age 34     5' 7"     170 lb     Stocky     Strange complexion.

Leon Oswald:     ~Age ??     5" 10"     Skinny

 

Carlos  =  Angelo
Victor  =  Leopoldo ?     (The ages are off by quite a bit.)

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 12/7/2022 at 1:33 PM, David Boylan said:

 

After working with Larry over the last few years I've learned some of the key principles that he uses in his research: Does it fit the context? Is it consistent? Does it make sense? Does it fit with what we know?

 

If we apply some of these questions to Oswald's "escorts" and the Sylvia Odio visit:

 

Would Oswald travel with people that he doesn't know? Would "Angel/Angelo" and "Leopoldo" travel with each other unless they knew each other or were friends? After visiting Odio did Angel and Leopoldo stay in Dallas or did they go onto Mexico City? If this was part of a CIA Op to get Oswald to Mexico City what was the Op? Were they CIA assets? Would the CIA take a chance on those that weren't trusted assets? How would her visitors know about Sarita (DRE) and her, Sylvia (JURE), and her father (MRP)?

 

After looking at these questions, Larry and I came up with two sets of individuals. The first set was Carlos Hernandez (Angel?) and Victor Espinosa Hernandez (Leopoldo?). They were both close to each other having come up through the camps training for the Bay of Pigs. Carlos considered Victor one of his best friends. They were in New Orleans in summer of 1963 having come from Miami. Victor had the idea that they could bomb Havana. Victor's friend Mike McLaney volunteered his brother Bill's place at Lake Pontchartrain to store the dynamite and bomb casings.

 

Both were CIA assets. Carlos was AMHAZE-2523 and Victor AMHINT-24. Carlos had an active CIA Provisional Operational Approval (POA) in Sept 1963.

 

Carlos had been used in a previous DRE propaganda and psych warfare operation run by the DRE/APMSPELL case officer at the time (Aug 1962) Ross Crozier. He and 8 other members of the DRE travelled to Helsinki for the World Youth Festival to disrupt the Cuban delegation and I speculate, help with the defection of Rolando Cubela (AMLASH) [Victor Espinosa was also close to Cubela. He and Cubela would go out clubbing in Cuba. Victor was in Cubela's hospital room when Fidel and Raul Castro came to visit. Raul was particularly close to Cubela.]

 

The DRE (Student Revolutionary Directorate) was composed of young independent minded members. In other words, the CIA could not control them. One example was when Crozier under the alias of Roger Fox accompanied 9 DRE members to the 8th World Youth Festival in Helsinki, July-Aug 1962. John Koch and Enrique Beloyra were so disruptive that the Finnish police "detained" them. Koch and Beloyra were banned from joining the remaining members from speaking at the festival. Despite the ban, Carlos Hernandez, Juan Salvat and Anna Diaz-Silveira managed to speak and draw attention to Koch and Beloyra's detention. The Finnish police released them both on the condition that they leave Finland the next day.

 

From a previous essay:

 

It didn't take DRE members (Salvat, Hernandez, Blanco) long before they caused an international incident by firing on the Blanquita hotel in Havana (Aug 24th). Both Czech and Russian officers were staying there. The purpose was to bring attention that Russians were in Cuba. They also reported that there were Soviet missiles in Cuba.

The end for Crozier aka "the man in Miami" came when he asked Luis Fernandez-Rocha (AMHINT-53) and Salvat and three others to infiltrate Cuba on either Oct 23-24 during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Ostensibly to report on military intelligence but told they might have to direct artillery fire.

Their Today Show interview on Nov 12 and a newspaper article bought DRE members Fernandez-Rocha and Jose Lasa a face to face  meeting with Richard Helms himself on Nov 13, 1962. Nestor Sanchez translated.

Helms informed them at this meeting that there would be a change in their contact in Miami. (He would replace Crozier with George Joannides alias Walter Newby). He said that (Joannides) could come directly to him (Helms) if he needed any clarification.

 Fernandez-Rocha Report to Joannides aka Howard

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=18928#relPageId=3

Even after Joannides(Newby) replaced Crozier, the DRE were still doing their own thing. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16129#relPageId=3

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Did Carlos end up in Dallas? We know that his friends and fellow DRE members were in Dallas during early October 1963 giving speeches and were fundraising. Specifically, Juan Salvat and Anna Diaz-Silviera. As noted above Carlos was on stage with Salvat and Diaz. Here we have this report from Dallas in October 1963:

 

“In one such event the unidentified speaker made extremely hostile remarks about President Kennedy, stating that something was going to be done to deal with him. After the speech, and upon learning he had been taped, the speaker took it by force - warning that he held a black belt in martial arts. It is impossible to identify that speaker, but for reference, DRE member Carlos Hernandez is noted in CIA documents as being both skilled in martial arts, and regarded as a sharpshooter.”

 

 

Now if Joannides was running an Op against the FPCC (see what Jeff Morley discussed during the press conference), it would seem to me to use a trusted asset and someone on the CIA payroll.

David,

Isn't the general theory about the Odio visit that members of the DRE were posing as members of JURE to enlist Sylvia's help? 

If so, then Carlos Hernandez would fit the bill. However, he was quite visible as a DRE extremist and risked being recognized by Sylvia Odio as such, right? 

Or, did she recognize him as a member of DRE? Wasn't she herself sympathetic to DRE? Did she and her sisters regard DRE as the more "cutting-edge" anti-Castro group? That was the contention of Ray and Mary LaFontaine, who may (or may not) have been correct.

[David Boylan]

Paul,

Carlos' name was out there but not his photo.

Sarita Odio was a member of the DRE. Sylvia recognized Carlos Bringuier from the film that Wesley Liebler showed her. She had met him before. She also visited New Orleans to visit her uncle shortly after the assassination. Pure speculation, but I suspect she tempered her identifications based upon what she learned.

[Matt Allison]

David and Larry- thanks very much for the replies; very interesting and informative.

I guess we are left to wonder what the real story is with regard to DeTorres and Murgado; the latter of whom supposedly changed his name to Kennedy. Very odd that he would participate in a misinformation scheme if he was so loyal to RFK.

[Gene Kelly]

On 12/8/2022 at 1:44 AM, David Von Pein said:

That incident occurred in 1979, not '78.

 

Good catch David ... the March 28th date aways sticks in my mind (but I sometimes confuse the year).  FYI, I worked at TMI that Fall. 

[Larry Hancock]

Matt,  I'm afraid Murgado and others will remain loose ends.  We have to face the fact that a number of individuals have come forward with or made personal statements that they cannot corroborate, and that we can't either. I've run out of explanations for it but I've also decided that such things really do get in the way of work on leads that do have some corroboration, are consistent from multiple sources and at least have a provable backstory.