How did Oswald just happened to get a job at the place where he was needed to be the patsy?

[Tom Gram]

The trip to Dallas was publicly announced on Sept. 25th. If we are dealing with a high level plot I don’t think it would’ve been particularly difficult for influential people to lobby for a motorcade. 

Also, JFK had done a motorcade through DP during the 1960 campaign and took pretty much the exact same route but backwards - so it may have been considered pretty much a sure thing that any JFK trip to Dallas would put him in DP. Oswald could’ve been placed in the TSBD in advance just in case, and the other plots could have been arranged in the same way.

I agree that Oswald did not have to be maneuvered into TSBD for there to have been a conspiracy, and have said so on this forum before, but I don’t think we can eliminate the possibility just because the exact details of the Dallas trip were not officially decided until eight days after Oswald got the job. It really is a remarkable coincidence, and I think it’s pretty reasonable to question the official story. 

[Matt Allison]

28 minutes ago, Allen Lowe said:

Matt wants to keep denying this because otherwise it puts Mrs. Paine at the center.

LOL

You really have no interest in the truth, do you?

[Matt Allison]

24 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

it may have been considered pretty much a sure thing that any JFK trip to Dallas would put him in DP.

The only way a motorcade goes by the TSBD is if there is a trip to the Trade Mart, which is something Kenny O'Donnell didn't agree to until November 14th.

Maybe Allen thinks he was under control of the plotters as well...

[Ron Bulman]

22 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

The trip to Dallas was publicly announced on Sept. 25th. If we are dealing with a high level plot I don’t think it would’ve been particularly difficult for influential people to lobby for a motorcade. 

Also, JFK had done a motorcade through DP during the 1960 campaign and took pretty much the exact same route but backwards - so it may have been considered pretty much a sure thing that any JFK trip to Dallas would put him in DP. Oswald could’ve been placed in the TSBD in advance just in case, and the other plots could have been arranged in the same way.

I agree that Oswald did not have to be maneuvered into TSBD for there to have been a conspiracy, and have said so on this forum before, but I don’t think we can eliminate the possibility just because the exact details of the Dallas trip were not officially decided until eight days after Oswald got the job. It really is a remarkable coincidence, and I think it’s pretty reasonable to question the official story. 

Great detail Tom, not many know of JFK & LBJ's backwards trip up main street in 1960. I think the route in 1963 was proposed well in advance.  A lot in play.  Too important for happenstance.  

It's really interesting, even ironic, Connally insisted on the Dallas Trademart for the speech.  Which in essence got him shot.  Main St. vs Elm.  This goes so deep.  

[Sandy Larsen]

On 10/26/2022 at 7:32 PM, Matt Allison said:

The entire motorcade through Dallas was one long opportunity to shoot JFK from a building with a rifle.

This was not a moon shot that needed weeks of planning.

 

Matt apparently believes that the CIA's MO is to pick a person to be their patsy, spend a good deal of effort setting him up (in Mexico City), hope that he gets a job in a favorable location for the assassination, that happens to be along what will later become the motorcade path. Then once the parade route is announced, quickly figure out how the shooters will get into the building, where to go to take their shots and hopefully not be seen, and how to get away when finished. And have that all happen without practice.

And when something goes wrong (and it will), that's okay because there are plenty more other patsies to go through. Hopefully there will be enough more presidential tours for Kennedy to hopefully be shot before his term is up.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 10/26/2022 at 4:35 PM, Paul Brancato said:

I’ve pondered this forever. It’s a very pertinent question. The main thing I would say is that whoever arranged it, whether LHO himself, or Ruth Paine or her neighbor, they needn’t have known that JFK was going to be assassinated, but they might have been guided by some unseen handler. I think that’s likely, since otherwise the coincidence is, as you say too big a stretch. Even the handler might not have known what was to come. But their identity would reveal an awful lot, since they in turn were following some dictate. 
Ruth is the obvious short answer, since it was she that passed on the info. Is there any reason to suspect that someone at the TSBD was the instigator?

 

Thanks for replying Paul. I don't think any of the Ruth protectors would touch this thread unless what I said in the OP had first been validated by a respected forum member.

 

[Matt Allison]

13 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Matt apparently believes

snip

It's fascinating how people want to dream up a 3 act Shakespearean epic as the only way this could have happened.

People get shot every day in this country with no planning at all. JFK knew that. Why don't you?

[Sandy Larsen]

8 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

People get shot every day in this country with no planning at all. JFK knew that. Why don't you?

 

Of course I know that people get shot every day with no planning at all. How is that relevant to the JFK assassination? Do you believe that Kennedy was shot with no planning at all?

 

[Matt Allison]

19 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I know that people get shot every day with no planning at all. How is that relevant to the JFK assassination?

Because you think the JFKA took months of planning and also necessitated control over Linnie Mae Randle.

[Kirk Gallaway]

Sandy, where we left it on the other thread was you had a very elaborate scheme about how this was all pulled off, which includes that  Ruth's job was to put Oswald in the TSBD, but you haven't said how she was informed, but apparently she was informed so seamlessly, that after Lee was apprehended she had no suspicions of the source who told her to place Oswald in the sniper's nest, despite the fact  that she might immediately suspect that she would be a suspect! (which turned out to be true , in at least that she was questioned more than any other witness).

Yet despite all of this, according to your theory, Ruth has no suspicions about her handlers. The plotters are supremely confident and have absolutely no fear that their testimony before the WC could possibly go astray. As I said before,  the operation concerning the Paines was a total slam dunk! Ruth is rewarded and assigned further work much later in Nicaragua.

I asked how that could be pulled off, you said that you have a detailed plan that you've now simplified, but we probably wouldn't be receptive. But don't be too sure. But damn, if it doesn't sound like you want to take out another thread and tell us. So ok, I'm not trying to be rude or ridiculing, What is your theory? How are you pulling this all off?

Edited October 28, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Because you think the JFKA took months of planning and also necessitated control over Linnie Mae Randle.

 

It's hard to nail down how long it took, or would take, because the plan had several components.

But there's no need to know that for this thread's topic. All that is needed is to use logic, odds, and common sense.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

55 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

I asked how that could be pulled off, you said that you have a detailed plan that you've now simplified, but we probably wouldn't be receptive. But don't be too sure. But damn, if it doesn't sound like you want to take out another thread and tell us. So ok, I'm not trying to be rude or ridiculing, What is your theory? How are you pulling this all off?

 

Kirk,

The purpose of this thread is to show, as simply as possible, that the plotters had to somehow have gotten Oswald the job at the TSBD. That there is just no way around it... at least not for reasonable people who wouldn't think the the plotters needed virtually no planning, and would rely on luck in choosing an assassination site.

The reason I've been trying to hammer this home is because I was surprised by the number of people who seemed not to understand it.

You have tried to show that the CIA could not have gotten Ruth Paine to get Oswald to take a job there. Which is fine. But let me tell you how I would react if you were to convince me of that. I would say, Kirk! you are so right! And then I would say, I therefore conclude that the FBI/WC must have talked Ruth and Linnie Mae into lying about those things in their WC testimonies! Because Kirk is right, Ruth couldn't have been instructed by the CIA to get Oswald that job. Instead, Oswald must have been instructed directly by his handler to take that job.

Either that, or I would say that the FBI/WC must have fabricated those parts of Ruth's and Linnie Mae's WC testimonies.

Because there's just no way to get around the plotters getting that job for Oswald.

 

55 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

But damn, if it doesn't sound like you want to take out another thread and tell us. So ok, I'm not trying to be rude or ridiculing, What is your theory? How are you pulling this all off?

 

Well, I hadn't planned on taking out another thread. But if I were to explain how I think it all happened, I would certainly do so on another thread. Because I'm trying to keep this one simple... an argument only, not a  theory.

If you do want me to do so, I will. But understand that it would have to be highly speculative.
 

[Greg Doudna]

Sandy its a decent question. The short answer is I don't know.

Here is the longer answer. Oswald alone doing the assassination does not make sense because of his lack of practice and skill, lack of motive, and cause to think he was set up (referring to valid impersonations after the mistaken ones are removed). Yet for some reason Oswald is very content with that low-paying deadend job at the TSBD, makes no attempt to make friends there though he is always polite and does his job without causing any trouble ... as if he knows it is just temporary, just putting in his time, going through the motions there, until... something. And then goes into evasive movements leaving the TSBD after the assassination, which can be interpreted as the behavior of someone who did it but can also be the behavior of someone who didn't do it but who realizes he has been set up and his life may be in jeopardy.

As for the assassination itself, it has the appearance of security-stripping combined with steering the parade route past the TSBD. Just looks something like that, though the details are maddening to sort through, and how to tell the difference between an inside man in the Secret Service causing some of that, versus plotters' exploitation of existing security vulnerabilities. And there is suspected corruption in the Dallas Police Department but who knew and did what exactly. Tough questions.  

And then the nature of the setup: via the rifle as part of a Castro-linked conspiracy as the original idea, a rifle on which Oswald had the original scope reinstalled on Nov 11 preparatory to conveying that rifle to ... someone, not realizing it would end up on the 6th floor of the TSBD as an assassination weapon incriminating him. 

If there was a criminal conspiracy carrying out the assassination, which there was, the question is which came first: Oswald employed at the TSBD (then plan the killing around the TSBD)? Or plan the killing around the TSBD (then steer Oswald to be employed there)?

The problem with the latter--which you are so dead set on, as if there is no other possibility--is not only how to ensure Truly would hire Oswald when he applies but a more basic problem: how to account for all of the failed job applications of Oswald at other places prior to Oct 15. I have asked you this question, and neither you nor anyone who holds to the view you hold has responded. Anyone who thinks the TSBD as the assassination site was pre-planned prior to Oct 15 when Oswald started work there, and that that plan required Oswald to be employed there at the time of the assassination, has to explain all those failed job applications of Oswald prior to Oct 15. No way around it: you must explain those, if you are going to hold to that premise. Do you intend to address this?

Do you suppose Oswald had some hidden plan of going through the motions of applying in all these prior job applications (but for what purpose?), then actually covertly sabotaging or ensuring that each of them failed? Do you suppose Oswald had no intent to be hired at any previous application even though outwardly it looks for all the world like he was trying to get a job?

That is too much of a stretch for me to believe. Matt Allison is right: "It's fascinating how people want to dream up a 3 act Shakespeearean epic as the only way this could have happened."

I don't think all those applications and interviews before Oswald got the TSBD job were fake or sabotaged. If you want to say they were all fake-acted (because you need that for your theory) that's your choice, but not me.

Another thing to consider: after Oswald was hired at TSBD there were what appear to be three distinct instances of inquiries for jobs made by persons apparently representing themselves to be Oswald at tall buildings in downtown Dallas with line of sight sniper shot to the parade route. These are generally not given much attention, but these employment inquiries occurred in the late Oct-Nov time frame at the Southland Parking Garage, the Statler-Hilton Hotel, and the Adolphus Hotel. Were they by someone representing himself to be Oswald? It seems so. Was it Oswald? I doubt it. What was going on with that?

I know it violates your desire to have everything planned long in advance the way it happened on Nov 22, but the incongruities in supposing an assassination involving the TSBD, with Oswald there employed, planned long in advance prior to Oswald's employment at the TSBD--the incongruities in that assumption   say to me the location-specific planning at Dealey Plaza came about after Oct 15.

If Oswald had landed somewhere not suitable for carrying out an assassination, he could be moved to a location of choice later as a change of employment, or he could be lured to visit a site of the assassination on Nov 22 even if working elsewhere, or he could simply be elsewhere on Nov 22 and he and Castro linked to the assassination via a rifle traced to him. I am not recommending any of these possibilities, only saying there is more than one way it could have worked. Don't be so dogmatic in your assumptions.

[Tom Gram]

8 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

The only way a motorcade goes by the TSBD is if there is a trip to the Trade Mart, which is something Kenny O'Donnell didn't agree to until November 14th.

Maybe Allen thinks he was under control of the plotters as well...

The motorcade going past the TSBD was convenient but I don’t think it was necessary. It would have been a tougher shot to pull off with the limo on Main St. but hardly impossible for a professional. As long as it was possible to engineer a scenario that pinned the blame on Oswald the plan would have gone ahead, and the option was always there to abort and try again in a different city if necessary. 

I also think that any ops manager would have seen the benefit of getting their guy in place as early as possible to limit suspicion. It was a very reasonable assumption that a JFK trip to Dallas would take him through Dealey Plaza, and if a key component of the plan was getting a fall guy into a tall building that would have been the first action item on the agenda. 

I’ve argued your position on here before, with Sandy, but I think the situation is a lot more ambiguous than you are making it out to be. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Matt Allison]

16 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

It was a very reasonable assumption that a JFK trip to Dallas would take him through Dealey Plaza

There's no evidence for that. The original plan was for the lunch to be at the Statler Hilton, which means the motorcade would have ended a mile before ever getting near Dealey Plaza.

If there was a plan months in advance to put Oswald on a potential parade route, anywhere along Main would have been a far better choice.

But there wasn't a plan months in advance to do that, as I feel I've more than amply demonstrated.