How did Oswald just happened to get a job at the place where he was needed to be the patsy?

[Sandy Larsen]

3 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

IMHO the only important aspect of LHO actually going to MC is that is more consistent with him being an intel asset.

 

You don't think it's important that the CIA made it appear that Oswald was conspiring with the Russians and Cubans in Mexico City to assassinate Kennedy? And was paid $6500 in the Cuban Consulate as down payment for the hit?

 

[John Cotter]

11 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

I’m hardly being disruptive by asking you for specific evidence to support your apparent assertion that Oswald was being “controlled” by the CIA or some other nefarious force in the weeks prior to the assassination. In the absence of this evidence, there is no reason to believe Ruth Paine or anyone else had an ulterior motive in helping him get the TSBD job, which, as I hope you’ve noticed, is the title of this thread.

Not engaging with the evidence already presented and instead looking for more evidence is a form of disruption known as sealioning.

More generally, people not engaging with the “critical path” of an argument are wasting everyone’s time. I’m stepping back for now.

[Jonathan Cohen]

17 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

Not engaging with the evidence already presented and instead looking for more evidence is a form of disruption known as sealioning.

More generally, people not engaging with the “critical path” of an argument are wasting everyone’s time. I’m stepping back for now.

There has been no hard evidence presented here that Oswald was being "controlled" by the CIA -- just Sandy Larsen's speculation and assertions.

[Matt Allison]

On November 14th 1963, there was still no motorcade route decided upon, still no luncheon site agreed upon.

The original pick, the Staler Hilton, is located at 1914 Commerce St.

Commerce is a one-way street, headed east. To get to the Statler Hilton, 3 blocks earlier you must pass the Allright Parking Garage at 1600 Commerce St. 

On November 14th, 1963, Lee Oswald, or someone posing as him, applied for a job at the Allright Parking Garage.

[John Cotter]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

There has been no hard evidence presented here that Oswald was being "controlled" by the CIA -- just Sandy Larsen's speculation and assertions.

Your initial request was, "Please detail any evidence whatsoever ..."

You've now moved the goalposts to "hard evidence".

Thanks for illustrating my point.

[Jonathan Cohen]

6 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

Your initial request was, "Please detail any evidence whatsoever ..."

You've now moved the goalposts to "hard evidence".

Thanks for illustrating my point.

And thank you for illustrating MY point that you and Sandy have nothing but speculation and bald assertions to support the notion that Oswald was being "controlled" by the CIA without his knowledge.

[Sandy Larsen]

57 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

On November 14th 1963, there was still no motorcade route decided upon, still no luncheon site agreed upon.

 

I believe there was someone under CIA control who could influence those decisions. And successfully did so for Dallas.

 

57 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

On November 14th, 1963, Lee Oswald, or someone posing as him, applied for a job at the Allright Parking Garage.

 

And there were other, similar incidences involving an Oswald looking for a job in a high-rise in downtown Dallas when the real Oswald was working at the TSBD.

I believe the purpose of these incidences was to show the later investigation that Oswald wasn't relying on just one place, the TSBD, to  be along the motorcade route. He was checking out a number of places from which to shoot Kennedy.

 

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

On November 14th 1963, there was still no motorcade route decided upon, still no luncheon site agreed upon.

The original pick, the Staler Hilton, is located at 1914 Commerce St.

Commerce is a one-way street, headed east. To get to the Statler Hilton, 3 blocks earlier you must pass the Allright Parking Garage at 1600 Commerce St. 

On November 14th, 1963, Lee Oswald, or someone posing as him, applied for a job at the Allright Parking Garage.

That's it! That may explain the not one but three job inquiries (three known, could be more) of Oswald or someone representing himself to be Oswald at the Allright Parking Garage on Commerce, the Statler-Hilton itself on Commerce, and the Adolphus Hotel on Commerce. The only detail to nuance in your above is the date is only variously estimated for the Allright Parking Garage visit from witness interviews at ca. 1-3 weeks before the assassination, date not securely fixed.

The Adolphus "Oswald" job inquiry is here: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95675#relPageId=21, and https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95675#relPageId=22, and https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95675#relPageId=24. This Adolphus Hotel Oswald job inquiry seems dated earlier, in October on a date before the birth of his daughter on Oct 20. It could have been before he was hired at TSBD. The Statler-Hilton job inquiry, which may have involved a written application though the document did not survive, was dated Oct 31 according to the personnel director who was able to date it by means of someone else she remembered there at the same time who she thought had been one of two others accompanying Oswald, who was hired as a bellman, one James Murphy (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95675#relPageId=25). James Murphy left his job after the assassination and went to New Orleans, and when interviewed by the FBI denied he knew Oswald.  

Edited October 30, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[Sandy Larsen]

12 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

And thank you for illustrating MY point that you and Sandy have nothing but speculation and bald assertions to support the notion that Oswald was being "controlled" by the CIA without his knowledge.

 

Actually, I believe that Oswald was knowingly being controlled by the CIA. There is a great deal of circumstantial evidence showing this and most scholarly researchers believe it to be the case.

But I'm sure that won't stop you from making other incorrect statements.

 

[John Cotter]

30 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

And thank you for illustrating MY point that you and Sandy have nothing but speculation and bald assertions to support the notion that Oswald was being "controlled" by the CIA without his knowledge.

You deflect instead of defend - because you have no defence.

[John Cotter]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

John,

You're assuming that the plotters wanted to choose a location for the shooting.

If I understand Matt correctly, he thinks it was okay for a random person (like Linnie Mae Randall) to choose the location. Further, he assumes that if the randomly chosen location isn't good for the shooting, or isn't along the motorcade route, then an appropriate location can be chosen once the route is available. And that the assassination can be done with almost no planning. Just gotta make sure the incriminating rifle is stashed somewhere nearby.

Matt can correct me f I am wrong.

 

Sandy,

Some people seem to ignore the meaning of the word “conspire” when it suits them. The etymology of the word is instructive:

“late Middle English: from Old French conspirer, from Latin conspirare ‘agree, plot’, from con- ‘together with’ + spirare ‘breathe’.”

It relates to the word “whisper” which is “to speak very quietly, using the breath but not the voice, so that only the person close to you can year you” (Cambridge Dictionary)

Hence, people who look for “hard evidence” of conspiracy are talking nonsense.

The conspirators who were so powerful as to be able to bypass FBI boss Hoover apparently – as Douglass described it – and prevail on Hoover’s subordinate Gheesling to remove Oswald from the watchlist and his other subordinates to falsify witness statements, for example, could easily exert “downward causation” so as to intimate by nods winks and whispers through intermediaries to someone like Linnie Mae Randle that important people want someone placed in such a place to carry out top secret work for the government.

Most people “go along to get along” and most people know that there are certain things you must go along with if you don’t want your life destroyed. That’s how our authoritarian societies work, and Cold War America was very authoritarian.

That may explain Linnie Mae Randle’s persistent evasiveness in her WC testimony in her responses to questions on the topic of Oswald getting a job in the TSBD arose and who raised it.

In the following extract from LM Randle’s testimony Joseph Ball puts eight questions to her. I have numbered each of these questions. Randle’s responses to three of these questions, numbers 5, 7 and 8, which are particularly pertinent to the above mentioned topic and which I have highlighted, are overtly evasive.

Her responses to questions 1, 2 are also evasive, though less overtly so.

Her replies to the remaining three questions, numbers 3, 4 and 6, are straightforward, but these questions are topic-neutral and so her replies don’t shed any light on the matter.

In the following extract I’ve highlighted the relevant exchanges in the following extract from her testimony:

1.    Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation at that time about her husband Lee Oswald? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, they had--it was just general knowledge in the neighborhood that he didn't have a job and she was expecting a baby. Of course. I didn't know where he was or anything. And of course you know just being neighborly and everything, we felt sorry for Marina because her baby was due right away as we understood it, and he didn't have any work, so they said, so it was just-- 
2.    Mr. BALL. Mrs. Paine told you that Lee didn't have any work? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I suppose. It was just in conversation. 
3.    Mr. BALL. Marina didn't take part in the conversation? 
Mrs. RANDLE. No. She couldn't. So far as I know, she couldn't speak. 
4.    Mr. BALL. You and Mrs. Roberts and Mrs. Paine talked about it? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. 
5.    Mr. BALL. Was there anything said then about the Texas School Book Depository as a place he might get a job? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because I didn't know there was a job open. The reason that we were being helpful, Wesley had just looked for a job, and I had helped him to try to find one. We listed several places that he might go to look for work. When you live in a place you know some places that someone with, you know, not very much of an education can find work. 
So, it was among one of the places that we mentioned. We mentioned several others, and Mrs. Paine said that well, he couldn't apply for any of the jobs that would require driving because he couldn't drive, and it was just in conversation that you might talk just any day and not think a thing on earth about it. In fact, I didn't even know that he had even tried any place that we mentioned. 
6.    Mr. BALL. What were some of the other places mentioned? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I remember two of them. Mrs. Roberts entered into the conversation and, of course, she is more familiar with the place than I am. It was Manor Bakeries which was a home delivery service. 
Then there was this Texas Gypsum which makes sheet rock and things like that, and we mentioned because Wesley had tried those places that I mentioned those. 
7.    Mr. BALL. And then you also mentioned the Texas Book Depository? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I didn't know there was a job opening over there. 
8.    Mr. BALL. But did you mention it? 
Mrs. RANDLE. But we said he might try over there. There might be work over there because it was the busy season but I didn't have any previous knowledge that there was any job opening…

[Ron Ege]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

That's true for me too. And it is also the center of the CIA's false flag operation against Cuba and Russia.

Oswald didn't need to be there. And the evidence that came out on it later indicates he wasn't IMO.

 

 

No controversy. But once you accept that Oswald wasn't even there, understanding the trip becomes trivial. That is, if you know what's in the Lopez report.

A couple weeks ago I was reading Peter Dale Scott's Phase-1/Phase-2 interpretation of Mexico City and could see how his assumption of Oswald being in Mexico City made the whole thing a tortured exercise. Take out Oswald's presence and it becomes easy. (I'm not saying that, therefore Oswald wasn't there. I'm saying that if you assume Oswald wasn't there -- that the whole thing was done with imposters -- it becomes easy to understand.)

 

And maybe he was not?

 

Mexico City, Part 1 (kennedysandking.com)

 

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Actually, I believe that Oswald was knowingly being controlled by the CIA. There is a great deal of circumstantial evidence showing this and most scholarly researchers believe it to be the case.

Once again, this is 4000% false. List just ONE piece of actual evidence that Oswald KNEW he was being controlled by the CIA in the weeks to the assassination -- not your theories and speculations. Real evidence.

[Cory Santos]

3 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

On November 14th 1963, there was still no motorcade route decided upon, still no luncheon site agreed upon.

The original pick, the Staler Hilton, is located at 1914 Commerce St.

Commerce is a one-way street, headed east. To get to the Statler Hilton, 3 blocks earlier you must pass the Allright Parking Garage at 1600 Commerce St. 

On November 14th, 1963, Lee Oswald, or someone posing as him, applied for a job at the Allright Parking Garage.

Interesting.   Cite about the application please.  

[Kirk Gallaway]

2 hours ago, John Cotter said:

Sandy,

Some people seem to ignore the meaning of the word “conspire” when it suits them. The etymology of the word is instructive:

“late Middle English: from Old French conspirer, from Latin conspirare ‘agree, plot’, from con- ‘together with’ + spirare ‘breathe’.”

It relates to the word “whisper” which is “to speak very quietly, using the breath but not the voice, so that only the person close to you can year you” (Cambridge Dictionary)

Hence, people who look for “hard evidence” of conspiracy are talking nonsense.

The conspirators who were so powerful as to be able to bypass FBI boss Hoover apparently – as Douglass described it – and prevail on Hoover’s subordinate Gheesling to remove Oswald from the watchlist and his other subordinates to falsify witness statements, for example, could easily exert “downward causation” so as to intimate by nods winks and whispers through intermediaries to someone like Linnie Mae Randle that important people want someone placed in such a place to carry out top secret work for the government.

Most people “go along to get along” and most people know that there are certain things you must go along with if you don’t want your life destroyed. That’s how our authoritarian societies work, and Cold War America was very authoritarian.

That may explain Linnie Mae Randle’s persistent evasiveness in her WC testimony in her responses to questions on the topic of Oswald getting a job in the TSBD arose and who raised it.

In the following extract from LM Randle’s testimony Joseph Ball puts eight questions to her. I have numbered each of these questions. Randle’s responses to three of these questions, numbers 5, 7 and 8, which are particularly pertinent to the above mentioned topic and which I have highlighted, are overtly evasive.

Her responses to questions 1, 2 are also evasive, though less overtly so.

Her replies to the remaining three questions, numbers 3, 4 and 6, are straightforward, but these questions are topic-neutral and so her replies don’t shed any light on the matter.

In the following extract I’ve highlighted the relevant exchanges in the following extract from her testimony:

1.    Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation at that time about her husband Lee Oswald? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, they had--it was just general knowledge in the neighborhood that he didn't have a job and she was expecting a baby. Of course. I didn't know where he was or anything. And of course you know just being neighborly and everything, we felt sorry for Marina because her baby was due right away as we understood it, and he didn't have any work, so they said, so it was just-- 
2.    Mr. BALL. Mrs. Paine told you that Lee didn't have any work? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I suppose. It was just in conversation. 
3.    Mr. BALL. Marina didn't take part in the conversation? 
Mrs. RANDLE. No. She couldn't. So far as I know, she couldn't speak. 
4.    Mr. BALL. You and Mrs. Roberts and Mrs. Paine talked about it? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. 
5.    Mr. BALL. Was there anything said then about the Texas School Book Depository as a place he might get a job? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because I didn't know there was a job open. The reason that we were being helpful, Wesley had just looked for a job, and I had helped him to try to find one. We listed several places that he might go to look for work. When you live in a place you know some places that someone with, you know, not very much of an education can find work. 
So, it was among one of the places that we mentioned. We mentioned several others, and Mrs. Paine said that well, he couldn't apply for any of the jobs that would require driving because he couldn't drive, and it was just in conversation that you might talk just any day and not think a thing on earth about it. In fact, I didn't even know that he had even tried any place that we mentioned. 
6.    Mr. BALL. What were some of the other places mentioned? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I remember two of them. Mrs. Roberts entered into the conversation and, of course, she is more familiar with the place than I am. It was Manor Bakeries which was a home delivery service. 
Then there was this Texas Gypsum which makes sheet rock and things like that, and we mentioned because Wesley had tried those places that I mentioned those. 
7.    Mr. BALL. And then you also mentioned the Texas Book Depository? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I didn't know there was a job opening over there. 
8.    Mr. BALL. But did you mention it? 
Mrs. RANDLE. But we said he might try over there. There might be work over there because it was the busy season but I didn't have any previous knowledge that there was any job opening…

John, you seem more confident about these answers being "persistently evasive" than I do. By this point , it's obvious to Linnie Mae who and how Oswald got the job is a "big deal'.  It's true, it's not as fruitful as either of us would have liked , but she keeps coming back to that there was no specific job opening she knew of, but Lee might try applying, as Wesley did.. I just don't think you've made much of a case here.

Ben, I once forwarded that episode of Frontline here, because many people were referring to Kostkov in a thread here, and I thought I'd flesh him out for everybody. There's also a segment just prior, around 1:02 of 2 Australian woman talking of meeting Oswald on the bus to Mexico City, that some here speculate were CIA  misinformants. i don't have an ironclad view about whether Oswald was in Mexico City but of course, it is important that the CIA was trying to make it look like he was in Mexico City.