Dale Myers and his World of Illusion

[Gerry Down]

11 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

It's been tried before, but the courts have not upheld the libel charge. Andrew is correct. 

Do you know when this was first tried and failed? For example, is this a precident that has been set as far back as the 1980s?

Edited November 15, 2022 by Gerry Down

[James DiEugenio]

I made a mistake today and checked in this site while eating breakfast at a restaurant.  I usually have the two Bozos, Von Pein and Roe, on ignore but such was not the case on my cell phone, so I had to read the drivel.

Uh, I said in my article  the date of the Myers post, what it was about, so anyone could google it and find it.  I have a moral problem with referring people from Kennedysandking.com to sites that do the opposite of what we do.  Which is bring the newest and best info to the public on the four great cases of the sixties.  I simply will not use my site to promote people who are directly involved in the opposite endeavor.  But they can do that on their own.

As per Roe, what a joke.  This is the man who wrote one of the most sickening, nauseating, gross pieces of tripe I have ever read about Sebastian LaTona.  Now please note, I went head to head with Von Pein for about a year over Bugliosi.  So when I use those words to describe what Roe wrote, that means something.  What he wrote about LaTona could be studied at Langley in the art of black propaganda.  In its own way it was as bad as what PBS and Mike Sullivan and Russo did in 1993 and their repeat of their JFK special in 2003.  For this man to get up on a soapbox and declare himself a paragon of morality for the living and dead, I mean, in light of just that fact,  its something out of Sunday morning comic strips. But that is how fatal LaTona is in this case to the official story, and that is why we had a police investigator, Mr. Edwards, present that evidence.

Now to go to my main point about Myers.  Myers was hired by PBS in 1993 and ABC in 2003 to do what he could to support the Warren Report. He dealt with three main areas in those two appearances, the Tippit case, the acoustics, and his so called Dealey Plaza "simulation" of the shooting.  As I showed in my article, there were very serious problems with all three of those renditions.  In the case of TIppit, Myers chose to use the late arriving Jack Tatum as his major witness.  Anyone can read the article at Kennedys and king.com by Jack Myers which I referenced.  Here it is again for those who did not https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/why-officer-tippit-stopped-his-killer.  That article raises the most serious questions about Tatum, and Myers' decision to use him. Let me quote if you missed it:

 

"What Tatum describes next was seen by no other witnesses. 

Tatum looked in his rearview mirror and saw the policeman laying in the street. The gunman, still on the passenger side of the squad car, walked to the rear of Tippit’s car, hesitated, came around the back of the car, then walked up along the driver’s side of the car … and shot Tippit one final time at close range. (McBride, p. 496) 

The gunman, according to Tatum, then looked around, surveyed the situation, and started a slow run west in Tatum’s direction. Tatum put his car in gear, drove forward down 10^th Street to avoid danger, and kept his eye on the gunman in the rearview mirror.

Tatum said he could see the gunman very clearly and that the corners of his mouth curled up, like in a smile, which was distinctive and made this individual stand out. Then, Tatum delivers his punch line, the big money words the PBS audience is waiting for:

“And I was within 10-15 feet of that individual and it was Lee Harvey Oswald.”  

Continued from Jack Myers:

"Now, to the casual viewer of this PBS documentary, Mr. Tatum has just laid to rest any and all the conspiracy theories surrounding the murder of J.D. Tippit—and has apparently put the final nail in the coffin of Lee Harvey Oswald. Tatum is so smooth in his delivery, so convincing, so sincere: 10-15 feet? How could he have not identified Oswald?

Frontline and PBS should be ashamed for having filmed this charade and then presenting it to the American public as fact. (The reader can see this interview at Youtube, under the title, “J. D. Tippit Murder Witness Jack Tatum”) Since the entire interview was shot from within Tatum’s vehicle, the viewer can’t see that, according to Tatum’s own description of events, the gunman was likely never closer than 100 feet of Mr. Tatum’s alleged position." 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

As Jack Myers then states: this is a deception of the first magnitude.  Since criminal studies have shown that, after 25 feet the ability to make out a face seriously diminishes. At about 150 feet it is just about zero.  So how could Tatum make out a face in his rearview mirror from about a 100 feet, or more, away? And, recall, Tatum was moving slightly forward at the time. How could he make out the corners of the perpetrator's mouth?

Jack Myers now goes on to question if Tatum was ever really there. Consider this:

"Tatum first said he simply drove away and left the scene of the Tippit slaying. Later he explained that he came back to help poor Mrs. Markham, eventually driving her to a police station to give her statement. A noble gesture to be sure. Only problem is, DPD records indicate that Mrs. Markham was taken to DPD headquarters by Office George Hammer, not Mr. Tatum."

As per Tatum's description of the shots, as Jack Myers notes, the majority of the witnesses said the shots went off in a flurry with no delay between them. But not Tatum; again Jack Myers:

 

"Yet Mr. Tatum insisted that “Oswald” fired 3-4 shots from the front passenger side, stopped, walked to the back of the patrol car, hesitated, then walked behind the squad car, turned, and walked up the driver’s side until he stood over Tippit and fired one last bullet up-close-and-personal.

Except, no one heard that. No one heard anything even remotely resembling that. Nobody heard shots—followed by a several second delay—followed by one final shot."

This was Dale Myers' chief witness. 

Geez, has Roe gotten on his soapbox about these rather serious problems in his story?  Please show me where?

[Gerry Down]

There is a misreading of Tatum's account here. Tatum never said he was within 10-15 feet as he drove away. He was referring to being 10-15 feet from Oswald when he drove past Oswald while he was talking to Tippit which would be true.

Tatum's account of a delayed last shot matches the Davis sister account who said she heard shots which caused her to sit up in bed at which time she heard another shot.

[James DiEugenio]

Now let us go to Dale's work for ABC on the acoustics.

I really cannot do very much better than what Don Thomas did.  He wrote six pages, in which he used 2 pictures and one illustration to show just how wrong Myers was on his 200 mph estimate. But as Don notes, the program "was well into the rerun phase before the details of Myers' analysis were made available by him in 2007."

As Don writes, it was then revealed that Myers had placed the first shot at z 160. (p. 677). This is almost in VInce Bugliosi land.  Pat Speer has done a study of the witness statements and he criticized Bugliosi on this point pretty seriously. But, according to Don, this was one of the contributing factors on the way to the 200 mph figure.  DOn also criticized Myers on what Dale estimated the speed of the motorcade at crucial junctures, like the turn onto Elm.(p. 679)

What Don writes about Myers and his  use of "epipolar geometry" should be read in the original, as I cannot do it justice in a paraphrase. But I will say that Don simply deduces that this rubric is simply not applicable in this case, in other words, its a fancy word for helium.

FInally, for me--but not Don--there is no way to exactly place Hughes' position.  At least not to the extent that Myers tried to place him.  As Don writes, Myers attempts to do this was really "another inference and not one fixed by photographic evidence." (p. 680) 

This is some of the material that   Myers used for his 200 mph estimate.

Geez is Roe on his soapbox about this?

[James DiEugenio]

12 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

There is a misreading of Tatum's account here. Tatum never said he was within 10-15 feet as he drove away. He was referring to being 10-15 feet from Oswald when he drove past Oswald while he was talking to Tippit which would be true.

Tatum's account of a delayed last shot matches the Davis sister account who said she heard shots which caused her to sit up in bed at which time she heard another shot.

Gerry, you are missing the part about the rearview mirror.  And you are not including the other witnesses that Jack quotes, from people not in bed. 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

This was Dale Myers' chief witness. 

When did Myers ever call Jack Tatum his "chief witness"?

What Dale Myers does (in totality), of course, is to utilize ALL of the evidence in the Tippit case to arrive at the inescapable conclusion of Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt in that crime.

And, in actuality, no witnesses are even needed at all in order to arrive at that conclusion, seeing as how Oswald was nice enough to hang on to the Tippit murder weapon in the theater for 35 minutes after killing the 11-year veteran police officer.

The following laminated quotation (aka: a blast of reality) should be placed before the eyes of people like James "Bozo" DiEugenio at least once a month. They'll always ignore it, but they should be forced to read it once a month anyway:

Edited November 15, 2022 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

Third, let us go to the computer graphic simulation.

Now, there have been so many refutations of Mr. Single Bullet Fact and his simulation that I don't wish to go through them all.

For one example, I wish we still had Milicent Cranor's  on our web site.  I thought that one was short, punchy and to the point.  But to my knowledge, that one was never replied to by Myers.  As I said, Myers said he called Dave Mantik, but Dave said he got no such call or even a message.  This was at the time that Dale was saying you could see JBC and JFK jumping in unison as they reacted to the shots. Mantik said, that he does not see that on the Z film and therefore it must be at the time they were behind the sign--but how could Dale see that behind the sign? Those are just two instances of Mr. Single Bullet Fact saying he disposed of his opponents.  The Schnapf/Orr reply I hope will be coming soon.  And as I said, Dale asked You Tube to remove Bob Harris's visual reply. 

This last example will show how Pat Speer and Dale had an exchange on the 'simulation". I fail to see how Dale "crushed" Speer in this one.  And I like the way Pat refers to Dale's creation as a House of Mirrors. (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter12canimania)

Now, my argument is pretty simple.  When I meet Dr. Lee, I did not expect him to say what he did about not being able to do a trajectory analysis. But after thinking about it, and considering his experience and credentials and his record, I came to think he was correct on this.  That since the back wound was not dissected, there could not really be any trajectory analysis of any authority.  Especially when one adds in all the other problems in doing so eg. the placement of the back wound, Perry's statement about the anterior neck wound being one of entrance, the "reverse trajectory" out of Connally's left thigh, the significant question of the bullet being found on Ronnie Fuller's stretcher etc. I could have added in the testimony of Wright's widow, about other nurses finding bullets on several other stretchers that day.

So we did not do any kind of reconstruction. And any objective person can see that. What we did was raise the very serious question of how a bullet could emerge in that condition after doing so much damage.  And we had a forensic pathologist and a battlefield surgeon testify on screen about that.

Which returns us to Myer's credentials and professional experience in the field.  Just what are they? I repeat: Does he in any way compare to Henry Lee? Does he qualify to testify in any court in the USA? What about abroad? Not as far as I can see.  Does he have any degrees in medical science?  Has he taken any courses in Crime Scene Investigation? Has he sat in on any autopsies as an intern?  Has he ever served in an emergency medical ward?

 

[James DiEugenio]

The answer to all those questions, as far as i can see, is no, no , no no, no, no and no.

Now, how could a man like that compare to Henry Lee?

Dale Myers had no such credentials at all.  As far as I can see, his credential was that Jennings wanted to do a pro Commission show, and Dale knew the lead investigator Gus Russo. The last time I saw the show, Russo's name was not on the program.  But we know he was the lead reporter since he was on a radio show talking about how he was flying across the country first class to do the interviews.

Now, we know that ABC was not going to take any other viewpoint about the assassination.  And we know this from David Wrone who was accidentally called up about the show.  He walked away from the phone to look something up, and evidently the caller was advised that he was not on the agenda, and so he hung up.  Myers' so called computer simulation is a disgrace in so many ways I do not even want to go into it here.  But with any kind of quality control, it would never have been allowed to air.

But as we showed in our film, quality control in TV on the JFK case went out the window int the many years ago.  CBS cooperated with the Commission to turn out a special within 24 hours of the WR being published. We know this and talk about it in the film via Bernie Birnbaum, a CBS producer.  NBC did pretty much the same thing.  They just accepted everything in the report. Without ever analyzing it.  CBS then did the same thing with Uncle Walter and Danny in 1967, without ever revealing that John McCloy was a secret consultant on the film series. They then lied about this. Never to admit it until 1992.  

Now, you will get this information in broadcast form only from Oliver Stone. Try and find it on any of Dale's productions.  Yet, it is very important info since it goes to the heart of what a democracy is supposed to be.  If the media does not inform the public on an earthquake issue like the JFK case, then what good is it for? Weather reports? Ship departures from New York harbor?

It was Oliver Stone who brought the issue up. Good ole Dale not just did not. He could not. He was being paid by them.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Gerry Down]

53 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Gerry, you are missing the part about the rearview mirror.  And you are not including the other witnesses that Jack quotes, from people not in bed. 

I know the part about the rearview mirror. What I mean is that when he is talking about the 10-15 feet, he is no longer talking about when he was looking in the rearview mirror but is talking about when he had first drove past Oswald while he was talking to Tippit. Below is the video for reference. There is even a questionable break in the audio on the video which might suggest the editors are splicing together two different sections of the video for editing purposes. 

 

“I put my car in gear and drove forward and watched him through the rear-view mirror.”

---Break In Sound On Tape---

“And I saw him very clearly. I realized there was one thing that made him stand out and that was his mouth that curled up. I couldn’t mistake that. Kind of a smile. And I was within 10-15 feet of that individual and it was lee Harvey Oswald.”

Whether there is an edit there or not at that point in the video, Tatums account can be read as him simply talking about when he had been passing Oswald and Tippit talking when he would indeed have been 10-15 feet from Oswald. The accout can be read that way.

With regard to the two Virginia sisters, their accounts backup a delayed shot in the shooting sequence of Tippit. They heard the flurry of 3 or 4 shots Oswald fired across the hood of the car as one single shot. Barbara had enough time to jump up while Virginia had enough time to contemplate what the sound was whether it was a tire blowout etc. They then heard another shot. Barbara Davis said:

Today November 22, 1963 shortly after 1:00 pm, my sister-in-law, Virginia Davis, and I were lying on the bed with the kids. I heard a shot and jumped up and heard another shot. I put on my shoes and went to the door and I saw this man walking across my front yard unloading a gun.

This account implies a delay, enough for her to jump up. Her sisters account also implies a delay:

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. We was lying down.
Mr. BELIN. You were lying down in the living room on the sofa bed, or what?
Mrs. DAVIS. It is a bed against the wall and a sofa.
Mr. BELIN. Who was lying down?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, Jeanette was lying on the bed. I was lying on the couch, and Annette and James Lee were lying on the other bed.
Mr. BELIN. Are these other people children of your sister's?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. About how old are those children?
Mrs. DAVIS. James will be 6 and then Annette is 5.
Mr. BELIN. Now as you were lying down, what did you see or hear?
Mrs. DAVIS. We Just heard a shot.
Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?
Mrs. DAVIS. We heard the first one and then we thought maybe someone had a blowout like a tire or something and we didn't get up to see. Then we heard the second shot and that is when we ran to the front door.
Mr. BELIN. Well, now, does that mean that you heard two shots?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Are you sure there were not more than two, or are you sure that you heard two?
Mrs. DAVIS. We just heard two.

Virginia implies a delay as she says she contemplated what the sound might be but didn't bother getting up to find out. Then she heard the second shot. Her statement that she didn't bother to get up to see what the sound was implies a delay of several seconds. If there was just a space of 1 second between the shots, she would not have enough time to get up to see what the sound was. 

Oswald fired the shots across the hood so rapidly, the Virginia sisters heard them as one loud noise. Then there was a pause as Oswald walked around the back of Tippits car and fired again. Such were the acoustics of being in the house that the whole sequence sounded as though it were just two single shots to the Davis sisters with a pause in the middle. 

[Allen Lowe]

3 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Andrew, you are right. I will correct my mistake on the libel. 

So I guess by your own standards this invalidates everything you’ve ever written. 

[David Von Pein]

28 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Myers' so called computer simulation is a disgrace in so many ways I do not even want to go into it here.  But with any kind of quality control, it would never have been allowed to air.

Yeah, sure Jim. Sure. That must be why Z-Axis Corporation, one of the nation's leading forensic animation companies, said this in October of 2003:

"Mr. Myers has taken a comprehensive and reasoned approach to animating this event and has successfully incorporated many diverse visual records into a unified and consistent recreation. We believe that the thoroughness and detail incorporated into his work is well beyond that required to present a fair and accurate depiction."  http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/faq_01.htm

---------------------------

Full Z-Axis report on Dale K. Myers' computer animation:

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/zaxis.htm

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

Allen,I sure as heck hope it invalidates his stuff on LaTona.

That was really one of the worst and witless farragos I have ever seen in the field.  And like i said, I used to read Von Pein.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Michael Griffith]

On 11/14/2022 at 7:50 PM, David Von Pein said:

For some unknown reason, Mr. DiEugenio didn't even see fit to include a link to Dale Myers' July 24, 2022, article that DiEugenio is heavily bashing at his K&K website. (There was no link to it in Jim's K&K article as of 8:55 PM EST on 11/14/2022 at any rate.)

Therefore, I'll post a link to Myers' 7/24/22 article/review here:

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2022/07/Reviewing Oliver Stone's Documentary

What a bizarre "review." Myers does not deal with any of the important new evidence presented in JFK Revisited--not even one item. In fact, he does not address any of the evidence presented in the documentary. Instead, he harps on the fact that it does not address the Tippit shooting! What kind of a "review" is that?

In his non-review review, Myers trots out some of the same dubious arguments about the Tippit shooting that he's been peddling for years, arguments that he knows have been answered many times over by serious researchers. For example, Myers trots out his fiction that "Oswald" supposedly spun around and reversed direction when he saw Tippit's car. Myers knows that the clear weight of the eyewitness evidence indicates that the man Tippit stopped had not spun around. 

But Myers won't admit this because then he'd have to explain why the lackluster Tippit would have stopped the man, supposedly Oswald, based on the vague description given over the police radio. The description broadcast by the police said the suspect was “about 30, 5’10”, 165 pounds.” Well, Oswald was 24, 5’9”, and weighed 131 pounds. Thus, Oswald was six years younger, 1 inch shorter, and 34 pounds lighter than the suspect described in the police broadcast.

And Myers knows full well that his "more than a half dozen eyewitnesses" were of questionable value and that their "identifications" would have been strongly challenged under cross-examination. Myers still won't even admit the obvious fact that the police lineups were unfair and rigged to make Oswald stand out.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

The description broadcast by the police said the suspect was “about 30, 5’10”, 165 pounds.”

 

 

The description almost matches Baker's affidavit, given later in the afternoon, in his case "approximately 30 years old, 5' 9", 165 pounds". Where did the radio broadcast get their information from? Was it Brennan? Otherwise, a case of multiple investigators singing from the same conveniently available hymn sheet.