A Response To DiEugenio's "Dale Myers and his World of Illusion"

[Michael Griffith]

17 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

"Holan lived at 409 E. Tenth Street"

No.  She did not.

From sometime in 1962 until the fall of 1963, she lived at 409 E. Tenth St. In September 1963, she moved from 409 E. Tenth St. into a second-story apartment located at 113 S. Patton. I missed this move when I was hurriedly scanning some sources on her location yesterday. Anyway, her second-story apartment on S. Patton was only about 150 feet from the Tippit shooting scene, and period photos of the shooting scene and the surrounding area indicate that Ms. Holan may indeed have been able to see Tippit and his car.

And I ask again: Are you saying that SMU Professor William Palte was lying when he said he attended one of Brownlow's two meetings with Ms. Holan?  

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[Tom Gram]

22 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

From sometime in 1962 until the fall of 1963, she lived at 409 E. Tenth St. In September 1963, she moved from 409 E. Tenth St. into a second-story apartment located at 113 S. Patton. I missed this move when I was hurriedly scanning some sources on her location yesterday. Anyway, her second-story apartment on S. Patton was only about 150 feet from the Tippit shooting scene, and period photos of the shooting scene and the surrounding area indicate that Ms. Holan may indeed have been able to see Tippit and his car.

And I ask again: Are you saying that SMU Professor William Palte was lying when he said he attended one of Brownlow's two meetings with Ms. Holan?  

 

 

Michael, did you see Myers’ source for the Sept. ‘63 move to 113 S. Patton? Maybe there are some additional sources I’m not aware of here, but Myers’ only footnote to that claim is his 2021 interview of Lad Holan with a specific note that other family members could not corroborate the date. Seems pretty flimsy to me. 

[Steve Roe]

On 11/28/2022 at 11:07 AM, Tom Gram said:

If the evidence against Oswald was so conclusive, lone assassin theorists wouldn’t need to make condescending and intentionally provocative comments. Dale Myers is by far the worst offender. The deliberately insulting unhinged rants on his blog read to me like insecurity and desperation, which makes it very hard to take him seriously. I can’t trust someone who needs to go on a massive ego trip just to make a point - and Myers would be a lot more credible if he could handle legitimate criticism without throwing a tantrum, in my opinion. 

1. Dale Myers has made a career out of giving the MSM what it wants concerning the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

2.But that is what Myers, Russo, the late PBS producer Mike Sullivan, and Peter Jennings, were not going to do. It was they who were the masters of silence about really happened to JFK. And this new work helps show Dale Myers for what he was and is: a designer of sand castles in the air.

I guess you find this acceptable, right Tom? That's just two examples of DiEugenio's provocative baseless claims from his article. I understand you support DiEugenio, even with his nutty Sewer comments on another thread (escaping through a 15" drainage pipe). But DiEugenio has been lambasting Dale Myers for years, and of course just look at the nasty comments from Forum members about him as well. 

You can't have it both ways Tom.

Maybe you should direct your attention to DiEugenio's own vindictive vile past behavior, but of course you won't. DiEugenio has called me and others here, Clowns, Bozos, DisInfo agents and a whole host of against the Forum Rules INSULTS. 

I didn't see you Tom speak out against DiEugenio's own vile rants on this forum. 

 

 

[Matthew Koch]

36 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

 

Maybe you should direct your attention to DiEugenio's own vindictive vile past behavior, but of course you won't. DiEugenio has called me and others here, Clowns, Bozos, DisInfo agents and a whole host of against the Forum Rules INSULTS. 

I didn't see you Tom speak out against DiEugenio's own vile rants on this forum. 

 

 

Lions! and Tigers! and Bears! Oh MY.. how vile (sarcasm added)

 

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Steve Roe said:

1. Dale Myers has made a career out of giving the MSM what it wants concerning the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

2.But that is what Myers, Russo, the late PBS producer Mike Sullivan, and Peter Jennings, were not going to do. It was they who were the masters of silence about really happened to JFK. And this new work helps show Dale Myers for what he was and is: a designer of sand castles in the air.

I guess you find this acceptable, right Tom? That's just two examples of DiEugenio's provocative baseless claims from his article. I understand you support DiEugenio, even with his nutty Sewer comments on another thread (escaping through a 15" drainage pipe). But DiEugenio has been lambasting Dale Myers for years, and of course just look at the nasty comments from Forum members about him as well. 

You can't have it both ways Tom.

Maybe you should direct your attention to DiEugenio's own vindictive vile past behavior, but of course you won't. DiEugenio has called me and others here, Clowns, Bozos, DisInfo agents and a whole host of against the Forum Rules INSULTS. 

I didn't see you Tom speak out against DiEugenio's own vile rants on this forum. 

 

 

I don’t really understand what’s so unacceptable about that quote. It’s a reasonable opinion that has supporting evidence. Do you not think that Myers has profited from giving the MSM what it wants on the JFK case? Do you really think Myers, Russo, Sullivan and Jennings have given the public an unbiased review of all the available evidence? 

I do not support anyone insulting each-other on here personally, including Jim, but I think it’s fine to criticize someone’s argument and/or behavior in not so delicate language as long as you have the evidence to back it up. Dale Myers personally insults anyone who disagrees with his thesis or acknowledges any ambiguity in the evidence, not just Jim. That fact is readily apparent to anyone who spends two minutes on his blog. His unhinged rants are over-the-top ridiculous to the point where he comes across to me as insecure. I’m fairly new here, but I have never seen anything even remotely approaching the same level of invective from Jim D. If I did I would criticize him the same way. 

And Steve, the only thing I said I regarding the sewer business is that I recall seeing a photograph in Jim Garrison’s files of a man getting into a storm drain behind the grassy knoll. I hardly have an eidetic memory and I could be wrong but I do remember seeing that. I’m pretty busy these days and haven’t had much time to go through JFK records but I’ll try to dig it up this evening. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Tom Gram

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Tom.

Dale Myers does what I said.  I mean that is so elementary that it does need explanation.  I mean who but good ole Dale would say in primetime that the SBT was really the Single Bullet Fact?  Who would do that?  In spite of the following:

When you cannot even prove that CE 399 is the projectile in question. 

When the evidence maintains that its highly questionable that the back wound perforated the body.

When Dr. Joseph Dolce of the Warren Commission said it was not possible that CE 399 could emerge in the alleged condition it did.

When Perry said three times on the day of the murder that the anterior throat wound was one of entrance.

When TInk Thompson made the case that the projectile was found on a different stretcher.

When the FBI lied about the identification of the bullet through Wright and Tomlinson.

When Wright denied to Thompson that it was the bullet he gave to the Secret Service.

When Wright's widow told Wallace Milam that the nursing staff was turning up several bullets that day on separate gurneys!

When Henry Lee said you cannot determine trajectory with any authority unless a bullet  track is dissected. Which was not the case with JFK.  In fact the pathologists were stopped from doing so according to Finck's sworn testimony at the Shaw trial.

Did good ole Dale qualify his thunderous Single Bullet Fact declaration with any of the above when he pronounced it on ABC? And did not ABC use this pompous pronouncement to sell the show?  And has not the SBT been a plague for the MSM on this case for decades?  I mean just look at what CBS did to try and prove it?

Same thing with the acoustics, and Dale's Don Garlits' motorcycle at 200 mph.  

[Bill Brown]

22 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Maybe I’m wrong, and I don’t know much about this story, but a quick browse through that article suggests that Myers’ only source for the Holans moving from 409 10th St. in September ‘63 is his 2021 interview with Lad Holan - hardly conclusive evidence, especially when Myers’ footnote to that claim states the following: 

[31] Ibid., p.4 [NOTE: According to one family member, the Holan family was living at 113 ½ S. Patton by September, 1963, although the exact date could not be confirmed by other family members.]

 

Perhaps do more than just a "quick browse".  There's more than just the comment by a family member.

 

[Bill Brown]

9 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Absolutely - but I was thinking of a slightly different angle. Myers presents the information obtained during his interview of Lad Holan as absolute fact in his article even though his own footnote says that other family members could not confirm the Sept. ‘63 move date from 409 10th St.

Basically, according to Myers, we should trust unconditionally the decades-old recollections of anyone who supports his thesis that Oswald did it but reject the recollections of someone like Edgar Lee Tippit. 

Myers gets a point for the accurate footnote, but anyone reading the article that didn’t know any better (or that believes everything Myers says like BB) would think the Sept. ‘63 move was settled history - when in fact it is ambiguous information obtained from a sole source over half a century later with zero corroboration. That’s pretty bad, IMO. 

 

Nonsense.  If you're going to criticize an article, at least have the decency to actually read it first.

 

Read the damn article.

 

From the Myers blog article:

 

Where did Doris live?

 

The central question surrounding the Holan story is whether the Holan family actually lived on Tenth Street as claimed by Pulte and Brownlow. 

 

Questions about the Holan family’s residency arose almost immediately when it was discovered that the 1964 Dallas City Directory (which covered the period of the assassination) showed that Doris E. Holan lived at 113 ½ S. Patton Avenue – around the corner from the Tippit shooting scene.

 

Following my initial questioning of Doris Holan’s youngest daughter about where they lived at the time, she located a letter, dated December 26, 1963, from John Holan to “Mrs. Doris E. Holan & Family” living at “113 ½ S. Patton, Dallas, Tex.” The letter, written by her ex-father-in-law, thanked Doris for the Christmas card she had sent – which obviously had been mailed at least a week earlier.

 

[Bill Brown]

On 11/29/2022 at 3:26 PM, David Josephs said:

Armstrong and I have been researching the Tippit murder for more years than you've been alive and he too found out that HOLAN lived directly across the street from the murder..

 

You and he have been researching the Tippit case for more years than I've been alive?

 

And the two of you still can't get it right?

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Bill Brown]

9 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

From sometime in 1962 until the fall of 1963, she lived at 409 E. Tenth St. In September 1963, she moved from 409 E. Tenth St. into a second-story apartment located at 113 S. Patton. I missed this move when I was hurriedly scanning some sources on her location yesterday. Anyway, her second-story apartment on S. Patton was only about 150 feet from the Tippit shooting scene, and period photos of the shooting scene and the surrounding area indicate that Ms. Holan may indeed have been able to see Tippit and his car.

And I ask again: Are you saying that SMU Professor William Palte was lying when he said he attended one of Brownlow's two meetings with Ms. Holan?  

 

 

 

From sometime in 1962 until the fall of 1963, she lived at 409 E. Tenth St. In September 1963, she moved from 409 E. Tenth St. into a second-story apartment located at 113 S. Patton. I missed this move when I was hurriedly scanning some sources on her location yesterday.

 

Yes.  You missed it alright.  At least you admit it.

 

 

Anyway, her second-story apartment on S. Patton was only about 150 feet from the Tippit shooting scene...

 

Nonsense.  The distance is more like 250 feet.

 

Tippit was shot 114 feet east of the corner of Tenth and Patton.  If you're standing at the spot where Tippit was killed, you can pretty much double (probably more than double)  that distance before you'd reach the apartment on Patton (located next to the alley halfway down the block between Tenth and Jefferson); and that's measuring as the crow flies.

 

 

...and period photos of the shooting scene and the surrounding area indicate that Ms. Holan may indeed have been able to see Tippit and his car.

 

And where can one have a look at these "period photos"?

 

[Tom Gram]

23 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Nonsense.  If you're going to criticize an article, at least have the decency to actually read it first.

 

Read the damn article.

 

From the Myers blog article:

 

Where did Doris live?

 

The central question surrounding the Holan story is whether the Holan family actually lived on Tenth Street as claimed by Pulte and Brownlow. 

 

Questions about the Holan family’s residency arose almost immediately when it was discovered that the 1964 Dallas City Directory (which covered the period of the assassination) showed that Doris E. Holan lived at 113 ½ S. Patton Avenue – around the corner from the Tippit shooting scene.

 

Following my initial questioning of Doris Holan’s youngest daughter about where they lived at the time, she located a letter, dated December 26, 1963, from John Holan to “Mrs. Doris E. Holan & Family” living at “113 ½ S. Patton, Dallas, Tex.” The letter, written by her ex-father-in-law, thanked Doris for the Christmas card she had sent – which obviously had been mailed at least a week earlier.

 

I’m failing to see how a letter mailed in December corroborates a claim that the move occurred in September.

I believe Ancestry.com has a full ‘64 Dallas city directory online. There should be information in there on when it was published and hopefully when the address information was collected. However, even if the relevant info was collected prior to Nov. 22nd, that still isn’t really conclusive. The Holans could have known about their upcoming move in advance - like if they had a lease expiring and had already signed a new one - and provided the correct information for the ‘64 directory. I’m assuming Myers realized this and that’s why he didn’t rely strictly on the directory.

Myers’ own footnote says that other family members could not corroborate the September date. If he’s gonna present something like this as indisputable fact he needs to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, and so far I haven’t seen any evidence that meets that standard. 

I’ll gladly be proven wrong, but I think it’s fair to apply the same level of scrutiny to something like this as Myers would to any evidence that points away from Oswald’s sole guilt.

[Bill Brown]

1 minute ago, Tom Gram said:

I’m failing to see how a letter mailed in December corroborates a claim that the move occurred in September.

I believe Ancestry.com has a full ‘64 Dallas city directory online. There should be information in there on when it was published and hopefully when the address information was collected. However, even if the relevant info was collected prior to Nov. 22nd, that still isn’t really conclusive. The Holans could have known about their upcoming move in advance - like if they had a lease expiring and had already signed a new one - and provided the correct information for the ‘64 directory. I’m assuming Myers realized this and that’s why he didn’t rely strictly on the directory.

Myers’ own footnote says that other family members could not corroborate the September date. If he’s gonna present something like this as indisputable fact he needs to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, and so far I haven’t seen any evidence that meets that standard. 

I’ll gladly be proven wrong, but I think it’s fair to apply the same level of scrutiny to something like this as Myers would to any evidence that points away from Oswald’s sole guilt.

 

You still haven't read the article, I see.

 

You can lead a horse to water blah blah blah.

 

[Tom Gram]

22 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

You still haven't read the article, I see.

 

You can lead a horse to water blah blah blah.

 

Alright Bill, I read the entire article. I stand by literally everything I wrote. Myers’ footnote is accurate. 

For anyone curious, there is zero evidence in Myers’ article that the move occurred in September other than Lad Holan’s memory, and Myers even mentions that Lad initially thought the move occurred later until he changed his mind, after being interviewed by Myers. The stuff Bill quoted in his last comment is the only thing Myers offers as support. Everything else is based strictly on Myers’ interview of Lad Holan. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Bill Brown]

28 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Alright Bill, I read the entire article. I stand by literally everything I wrote. Myers’ footnote is accurate. 

For anyone curious, there is zero evidence in Myers’ article that the move occurred in September other than Lad Holan’s memory, and Myers even mentions that Lad initially thought the move occurred later until he changed his mind, after being interviewed by Myers. The stuff Bill quoted in his last comment is the only thing Myers offers as support. Everything else is based strictly on Myers’ interview of Lad Holan. 

 

A letter to Doris Holan dated December 26, 1963 showing the Patton address (NOT the Tenth Street address).

 

A listing in the 1964 Dallas City Directory (which means it contains information from 1963) showing that the Holans lived on Patton.

 

You calling these two items "flimsy" doesn't make them so.  It only means that you've yet to remove the CT goggles that so many are fond of donning.

 

[Matthew Koch]

54 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

I’m failing to see how a letter mailed in December corroborates a claim that the move occurred in September.

I believe Ancestry.com has a full ‘64 Dallas city directory online. There should be information in there on when it was published and hopefully when the address information was collected. However, even if the relevant info was collected prior to Nov. 22nd, that still isn’t really conclusive. The Holans could have known about their upcoming move in advance - like if they had a lease expiring and had already signed a new one - and provided the correct information for the ‘64 directory. I’m assuming Myers realized this and that’s why he didn’t rely strictly on the directory.

Myers’ own footnote says that other family members could not corroborate the September date. If he’s gonna present something like this as indisputable fact he needs to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, and so far I haven’t seen any evidence that meets that standard. 

I’ll gladly be proven wrong, but I think it’s fair to apply the same level of scrutiny to something like this as Myers would to any evidence that points away from Oswald’s sole guilt.

I have a 1964 Postal Zip Code Directory for Dallas Texas that I bought on Ebay. What exactly are you looking for, I'll check it. It's got a Map of the postal zip codes in the center and it's got an alphabetical list of names and what zone they are in.