David Atlee Phillips: Oswald never went to Mexico!

[David Josephs]

4 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

I don't think anyone believes Oswald went to Mexico in order to return to Russia. He expressed convincing disdain for the USSR; it appears any attempt to go to Russia was a ruse to get to Cuba.

Again Matt... these are the stated reasons for his being there...  Cuba was off limits to Americans already...  

Yet we are engaging in the exact thing which is counterproductive like asking how proficient Oswald was with a rifle which he never owned, never fired and was not in the window at the time....  his shooting ability is not the issue...

There is no credible evidence that Oswald took the trip ascribed to him by the FBI et al.  In fact the evidence available helps prove the opposite... that he was not there and the entire account is purely a paper trail fabricated by the FBI to cover the fact that Oswald was traveling with Cubans and was an asset of the FBI...

Hoover had to hide that fact at all costs... so he backs the bogus CIA Mexico story with some of the most ridiculous point A to point B mumbo jumbo you can imagine.

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-evidence-is-the-conspiracy-index. 

Enjoy... the Mex chapters are very detailed and fully sourced...  

[David Josephs]

Now WHY the CIA is making claims that LEE HENRY OSWALD is in Mexico I leave to others.

If you have not read STATE SECRET by Simpich I suggest you do.  You don't have to agree with everything put forth yet not reading it if you are interested in the Mexico charade is doing yourself a disservice...

Same with my work on the journey and the Evidence...  a few years of my life following up on the hunch that Lopez was wrong about the WCR conclusions.

[Gene Kelly]

12 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

The problem with the idea that Oswald wasn't in Mexico at all is that they then have to hide him for a week somewhere else, forge copious amounts of evidence, and get a lot of people to lie about seeing him.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just send him to Mexico? The impersonation at the embassy would still be entirely doable.

Matt

Perhaps it was the visit to Robert McKeown, or the Clinton-Jackson incident, or the Odio visit.   There are several Oswald sightings in and around this time, many of which are not fixed with a precise date, but rather characterized as happening in "late September".   LHO is being shepherded around by his exile handlers. 

Gene

[Benjamin Cole]

Is not the provenance of Nagell's paper materials somewhat suspect?

As in, we do not know what paper was actually in Nagell's trunk at time of arrest, or in his lawyer's office (delivered at a later date, post JFKA) or what was truly seized from Nagell at the time of his arrest? 

Also, did not Nagell claim to have met LHO in MC?

As for Nagell's claim he sent a warning letter about a pending assassination to Hoover...

Again, in those days (I am old enough to remember) often people would send dupes to through the US mail to themselves, associates or lawyers, and the Post Office stamp and the sealed envelopes would be considered reasonable proof of time of mailing. 

So Nagell sends the most important letter of his life but does not make any dupes that can be tracked or traced or opened etc.  

Why is Nagell's totally unsubstantiated claim of a letter to Hoover taken at face value, but when three KGB officers state on the record while being filmed that they met the real LHO in MC, that is dismissed? 

I have no problem believing some evidence was seized and destroyed by the FBI (regarding the JFKA) or that CIA ginned up some evidence. I have no problem believing people can be bribed or threatened, or even killed (LHO for example) and so on. 

But...none of us has 100% built-in accurate lie detectors...

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

If you guys carefully follow what I'm about to explain, and not blow me off as just some other guy with a theory, you're gonna find that Mexico City is pretty easy to understand.

First, you need to erase everything you've heard about Oswald going to MC to get a transit Visa to Cuba. This is nonsense pushed by the WC to support its lone gunman theory. And you need to accept that Oswald wasn't even there. After you understand MC, you can put Oswald back in the picture if you want. But really, you need to forget about him for now.

Now, look at all the evidence.... especially the evidence we know the CIA created. (Actually, the CIA created all the evidence, but at first we only know some of it was.)

Most of the evidence comes in the form of false statements made by CIA assets. (Elena Garro de Paz, June Cobb, Gilberto Alvarado, maybe others.) This fake evidence shows that Oswald drove to Mexico city with a skinny red-haired negro guy and another accomplice. (Remember, this is fake evidence. So the real Oswald did not really go there. Nobody did. It's a story that the CIA wants everyone to believe actually happened.)

While in Mexico City, Oswald hung out with Cuban Consulate employee Sylvia Duran and a bunch of her friends. They had parties together, and so forth. One day Oswald and his red-haired negro friend were at the Cuban Consulate and they were paid a $6500 up-front fee to kill Kennedy. So apparently Oswald and his associate were in MC to make that arrangement. (Remember, this is just a story.)

One day, Oswald called Valeriy Kostikov at the Soviet embassy. Kostikov was  known to the CIA as head of the KGB assassinations unit.

So now we know that Russia and Cuba were both involved in JFK assassination, and Lee Harvey Oswald was the lead guy for the American hit team. (The idea of a "hit team" is based on other evidence outside of MC. Just go with it for now.)

Now, let me summarize what I have just described. The CIA created a Fake Conspiracy in which Oswald supposedly arranged with Cuba and Russia the killing of President Kennedy. That is what the evidence shows.

Immediately after the assassinations, the FBI was supposed to discover this conspiracy. The were supposed to discover that Oswald had arranged for the killing of Kennedy, and that Cuba and Russia were the sponsors. This would serve as a pretext for war against communism.

As for the surveillance photos.... the CIA used them to implicate KGB accomplices to the Fake Conspiracy. For example, this one

Cuban consul Eusebio Azcue said that this was the guy who was at the Cuban Consulate (not Oswald). In the FBI's investigation, they weren't supposed to think that this guy was an Oswald impersonator! They were supposed to think that he was a KGB agent dealing with Oswald, arranging for the assassination! They were supposed to think he was this guy, Nikolai Leonov:

Recall that Duran and Azcue said that he was blond, short, and slender. There was another witness who said the guy wore his hair in a pompadour.

(BTW the above photo identified as Leonov was so sensitive that it was hidden from the Warren Commission.)

I have good evidence for everything I've said here. Though I might have made some minor mistakes because I'm writing from memory.

Now see.... wasn't that easy?

 

SL---

I am not contesting that the CIA gins up fake evidence, or that the FBI may destroy evidence. People can be bribed, threatened or even murdered (LHO for example). 

I am leery of deciding which evidence is fake or real to fit a favored narrative. 

Why is something Nagell claimed to have done (send a letter to Hoover warning of the pending JFKA, but with zero evidence thereof) taken to be a true fact, but when three KGB agents are filmed on camera stating they met the real LHO in MC, that is dismissed?

Yes, it could be Nagell really did send the letter, and the KGB agents are all lying. 

It could be vice-versa, no? 

 

 

[Gene Kelly]

19 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

SL---

I am not contesting that the CIA gins up fake evidence, or that the FBI may destroy evidence. People can be bribed, threatened or even murdered (LHO for example). 

I am leery of deciding which evidence is fake or real to fit a favored narrative. 

Why is something Nagell claimed to have done (send a letter to Hoover warning of the pending JFKA, but with zero evidence thereof) taken to be a true fact, but when three KGB agents are filmed on camera stating they met the real LHO in MC, that is dismissed?

Yes, it could be Nagell really did send the letter, and the KGB agents are all lying. 

It could be vice-versa, no? 

 

 

Ben

I am having a difficult time following your logic ... what id the point here?

Gene

[Gene Kelly]

On 1/2/2023 at 10:06 PM, Tom Gram said:

I'd defer to Steve Thomas on this topic - but I'd suggest you read my essay on Oswald's mail to get an idea of why I think Marina was likely involved in ordering the rifle:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XvkmfIq44G8B-B_RV4L90f5AoXYdRTN4/view

The WC and FBI deliberately avoided the topic of the post office box and rifle order with Marina like it was Ebola, despite a mountain of evidence that she had access to the box - some of which vanished very early in the investigation - and her repeated contradictory statements about both the rifle and the Hidell alias. 

This was a very simple issue to clear up - and not at all suggestive of Oswald's innocence. Oswald the controlling, abusive husband supposedly forced Marina to sign the name Hidell on his behalf at least once; he allegedly said in his interrogations that he gave Marina one of the two keys to the box on occasion to pick up his mail; and not a single postal worker could remember handing over a large package to Oswald, despite so-called "exhaustive inquires" by the Postal Inspection Service. Marina received all her mail in P.O. Box 2915, the box remained open when Oswald went to New Orleans, and Marina filed her own change of address from the box to Ruth Paine's house on May 10th - the same day she drove to New Orleans with Paine. 

If you were an investigator in this situation, what would you do? You'd do the following: 1) ask Marina if she ever picked up any packages for Oswald at the Post Office; 2) show Marina the rifle purchase documents to see if she remembered/knew anything about them; 3) ask Marina if she knew how Oswald had acquired the rifle; 4) ask postal workers if they remembered Marina, who as an attractive young Russian woman would have been about the most memorable human being in Dallas; 5) ask both Marina and Ruth Paine about stopping at the Post Office on May 10th; 6) compare Marina's signature to the Hidell signature on the money order; 7) ask Marina if she'd ever been to the Post Office at all; etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. 

Guess how many of these things the FBI and WC actually did? Zero. The May 10th change of address disappeared and was never entered into evidence, despite crystal clear documentation of its discovery on the day of the assassination; Marina was never shown the rifle order documents - she was actually shown the pistol order form while David Belin misrepresented it as the form used to order the rifle; not a single postal worker was asked about Marina; and Marina was not asked a single question about the post office box or about how Oswald obtained the rifle.

It's actually much worse than that - but I think you get the picture. This doesn't mean that Marina was some mastermind conspirator out to frame Oswald, but it does suggest that the WC wanted to distance Marina, a Soviet citizen, as much as humanly possible from that P.O. Box and the rifle - even if she was just an unwitting participant on behalf of her husband - at the expense of conducting an an honest and thorough investigation. They didn't even give her a chance to deny that she knew anything or had anything to do with it. 

EDIT: Here is Steve’s excellent thread on this topic too: 

 

Steve

I find Steve's logic difficult to follow ... it's not clear cut.  Just because Marina wasn't questioned about this, doesn't make it possible.   I simply cannot envision her going to the PO box and retrieving the contents.  Plus, my perception is that Ruth Paine had her under intense scrutiny at this point. 

Gene

Gene

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

Ben

I am having a difficult time following your logic ... what id the point here?

Gene

I am asking how we determine who is lying and who is telling the truth, and which documents are real and which are fake? 

For example, here is a CIA doc released in 2017 (at least with fewer redactions) by the ARRB: 

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32341409.pdf

The internal CIA document, dated Nov. 23 1963, relates that LHO visited the Soviet Embassy MC on Sept. 28 and met KGB'er Kostikov (who was employed under diplomatic cover). 

Then we have Kostikov and two associates, filmed in 1993, relating they met the real LHO at the embassy on that day. 

OK, the internal CIA doc could be faked, or had fake info in it. And the three KGB agents were simply paid off. That is one answer. 

But really...are you so confident of such assertions? 

As an aside, I suspect that LHO was sent to MC as a biography build. 

Another thought: After 1963 through to 1992, the old Soviet Union had ample opportunity, either through back channels or publicly, to refute LHO had visited the Mexican embassy in September 1963.  

I am aware of no evidence the Russians ever denied Kostikov had met with LHO. No cables, or back channel communiques have ever surfaced.

The only evidence from Russia we have is Kostikov, on film, affirming he met with LHO. 

Obviously all of this should have been nailed down hard back in 1963-4, and instead we got the WC cover-up.

At this late date, I cannot prove Kostikov met with LHO, and all parties have died, and the paper info is what it is. It can be faked, or real, or intentionally misleading or scrubbed a long time ago. 

 

 

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

Steve

I find Steve's logic difficult to follow ... it's not clear cut.  Just because Marina wasn't questioned about this, doesn't make it possible.   I simply cannot envision her going to the PO box and retrieving the contents.  Plus, my perception is that Ruth Paine had her under intense scrutiny at this point. 

Gene

Gene

What?  No postal employee would have noticed the pretty young girl speaking Russian which they couldn't understand picking up a rifle from her husband's  P.O Box?  Seems to me there would have been a communication breakdown in the process . . . 

The last minute's kind of funky, but an appropriate video?

 

[James DiEugenio]

Ben:

The Mitrokhin archive said the KGB forged the Dear Mr. Hunt letter.

The majority of handwriting analysts who saw it said no, it was written by Oswald.

And in fact there is a misspelling in the letter that Oswald had done before in another letter from I think 1961.

Now if you saw what these guys said, then you know how rather Chekhovian--as RCD called it--their scenario was.  An  Oswald who was suicidal and brandished a gun?

I Mean does that sound like LHO to you?

Again, why did it take the Kostikov cable seven days to get to Langley if he really met the guy?  

As per your question about photo inventory, that means the CIA check of any photos of Oswald on that day came back negative.

Edited January 6, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Is not the provenance of Nagell's paper materials somewhat suspect?

As in, we do not know what paper was actually in Nagell's trunk at time of arrest, or in his lawyer's office (delivered at a later date, post JFKA) or what was truly seized from Nagell at the time of his arrest? 

Also, did not Nagell claim to have met LHO in MC?

As for Nagell's claim he sent a warning letter about a pending assassination to Hoover...

Again, in those days (I am old enough to remember) often people would send dupes to through the US mail to themselves, associates or lawyers, and the Post Office stamp and the sealed envelopes would be considered reasonable proof of time of mailing. 

So Nagell sends the most important letter of his life but does not make any dupes that can be tracked or traced or opened etc.  

Why is Nagell's totally unsubstantiated claim of a letter to Hoover taken at face value, but when three KGB officers state on the record while being filmed that they met the real LHO in MC, that is dismissed? 

I have no problem believing some evidence was seized and destroyed by the FBI (regarding the JFKA) or that CIA ginned up some evidence. I have no problem believing people can be bribed or threatened, or even killed (LHO for example) and so on. 

But...none of us has 100% built-in accurate lie detectors...

 

 

Ben... Taken by whom at face value?

Who is it that you see of any consequence in our scenario believes Nagell and that there was a letter....?

Finally Ben, how much Nagell research have you done?  I have almost 100 pages on Nagell related activity and history with copies of many other letters he said he sent to specific people.

From what I've seen I still have a difficult time piecing together that puzzle part...  but he was an agent, a double agent and maybe even a triple.  He wasn't even really sure who he was working for...  and he supposedly did have that ID card with Oswald's name and quasi image.

Yet belief or not in the bona fides of Nagell versus 3 ex KGB has very little to do with "why" but with all the other evidence that ties to the events they describe.  Nagell had been pretty messed up over his life both physically and mentally...  I think one can devote quite a bit of time to just him...  the Man who knew too much.

 

[David Josephs]

7 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ben:

The Mitrokhin archive said the KGB forged the Dear Mr. Hunt letter.

The majority of handwriting analysts who saw it said no, it was written by Oswald.

And in fact there is a misspelling in the letter that Oswald had done before in another letter from I think 1961.

Now if you saw what these guys said, then you now how rather Chekhovian--as RCD called it--their scenario was.  An  Oswald who was suicidal and brandished a gun?

I Mean does that sound like LHO to you?

Again, why did it take the Kostikov cable seven days to get to Langley if he really met the guy?  

As per your question about photo inventory, that means the CIA check of any photos of Oswald on that day came back negative.

BTW... it was Goodpasture who switched Oct 1 for the actual date of Oct 2 and 4...  of course they knew it wasn't Oswald... and it amazes me to this day that this memo was never more important or followed up upon...

If JC King knows who mystery man was... why was he never asked?

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Yess that deception by Goodpasture was pretty see through, I agree. 

And Danny and Eddie raker her over the coals on that one.

[James DiEugenio]

More on Nagell, I once did this after reading both versions of Russell, and I used to have voluminous documents on Nagell from Anna Maria Kuhns Walko.

 

Appendix: Corroborating Evidence for Richard Case Nagell

 

Exhibits

---

Mexico tourist cards for Nagell and Aleksei Hidell (hard cover edition of Dick Russell’s The Man Who knew Too Much, p. 113)

Nagell’s letter to J. Lee Rankin of March 20, 1964, about his prior attempts to warn FBI and Secret Service of an assassination attempt on President Kennedy (Russell, second trade paper edition, p. 7)

Nagell and Oswald both had Sylvia Duran’s phone number at the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City (ibid, p. 6)

Nagell had a duplicate of Oswald’s Uniformed Services Identification and Privileges card (ibid, p. xvii)

Nagell had a copy of Oswald’s signed Social Security card (Ibid, p. 252)

 

Witnesses

---

Arthur Greenstein: Nagell’s friend in Mexico who he left while on assignment in late October of 1962. At that time, Nagell told him he would probably read about him in the papers since he was on to something big. (Russell, p. 160)

Eleanore Gambert: Nagell’s sister, who he wrote to before the assassination about the bank robbery being a charade. (Letter of October 10, 1963) FBI interviewed her and her family after the assassination (ibid, p. 37–39)

Louis Gambert: Eleanore’s husband at the time, present during the FBI interview, where a copy of Nagell’s warning to the FBI was produced (ibid, pp. 38–39)

Roger Gambert: their son, who told Russell there was a break in at their home afterwards and some of the items from this file were now gone (ibid p. 40)

John Margain: Nagell’s military and personal friend; a CIA acquaintance sent him an article about Nagell in 1968. Nagell had told Margain about his warning letter to the FBI and his visiting Mexico with Oswald. (ibid, 100–02, 240–41)

Jim Bundren: Oswald’s arresting officer in El Paso in September. Nagell was waiting for him, and he told Bundren he “would rather be arrested than commit murder and treason.” He later told the guard that he really did not want to be in Dallas; when Bundren asked him what he meant by that, he said, “You’ll see soon enough.” (Russell, pp. 2–3)

 

Prior attempts on JFK

---

Vaughn Marlowe: Nagell tracked him as a member of the FPCC, and Marlowe later talked about Nagell visiting him before the assassination. Russell, p. 215)

Bomb in Miami: In December of 1962, Nagell was in Florida penetrating a Cuban exile plot to bomb the Orange Bowl on December 29, 1962. There is a Miami Police report of January 3, 1963, on how certain Cubans did discuss such a bombing.

 

Cross References in declassified Databases:

---

Joe Kramer was the name Nagell said he used in his warning letter to Hoover in September of 1963. In a 1994 CIA release, it was revealed the CIA had Nagell files kept under this name.

In Japan, Nagell said he saw files concerning Oswald’s relationship with a Russian colonel named Eroshkin. It was later revealed that military intelligence had files about Oswald in some kind of relationship with Eroshkin. (Russell, pp. 455–57)

 

[David Josephs]

57 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I am asking how we determine who is lying and who is telling the truth, and which documents are real and which are fake? 

I think you are asking about the chlorophyll when you gotta look at the trees in the forest.

...and why the CT side of this case is so overwhelming.  yet at the core Ben, it is simply not possible that each and every lead led to Oswald... each and every statement placing harm in Oswald's way has to be looked at as suspect since - surprise surprise - Oswald did not kill anyone that day.

So when Nagell talks about killing the patsy he is not implying Oswald's guilt in the killing whereas our 3 KGB men supporting Ozzie in Mexico (and btw - the Rave party arrest story was perpetuated for years and years after the fact especially by June Cobb) are directly implicating him... supporting the WCR's version as if what was learned in the years since was never even considered.

Would the three say L/9 was lying?