Did Baker ever suffer any blowback over Oswald?

[Tommy Tomlinson]

Last night, I was having a chat with someone who doesn't know any of the details of the case, and over a few glasses he asked me to break down the basics.

A fire place, a good friend, a good single malt and talking uninterrupted about The JFK Assassination? Thanks Santa... a few days late but I'll take it!

Anyway, after we got past Tippit killing he stopped me and asked a question I had never considered before...

"After Tippit was killed, and whoever did it, everyone THOUGHT it was Oswald... right? So, did  the cop in the book store (*Officer Baker) ever catch any flack from his fellow officers over allowing Oswald to "escape" in the Book building?"

And I was stuck. I imagine Joe will have the definitive answer to this but it had never occurred to me before?

Does history relate this matter to us? I don't think it makes an iota of difference to the case, but now that my interest is piqued... I really feel the need to find out.

[Joe Bauer]

I've never heard anyone mention Marion Baker being negligent at all regarding moving on up the stairs after encountering Oswald in the TXSBD lunch room.

He relied on Truly's assurance that Oswald was an employee and it was okay for him to be there.

And Baker's actions didn't result in Oswald's death.

Now, Dallas Police Department Chief Jesse Curry's ignoring concerns by fellow department personnel about moving Oswald in broad daylight ( versus a discreet night time one )  announcing to the public the approximate time frame of the move and allowing the basement area to be packed with shouting, bright lights shining including flash bulb ones newsmen just feet from Oswald was epic historic negligence worthy of criminal charges imo.

Curry's stubborn refusal to consider safer Oswald transfer advice resulted in an event that created unprecedented mass mistrust by a majority of Americans for generations regards their own federal government due to the most important piece of truth revealing evidence in the JFK case with Oswald's assassination being lost/destroyed ... right in his own building!

This mistrust ( rationally justified ) hugely damaged our society in many ways.

Knowing why Lee Oswald's survivors would not sue the DPD for their gross security breakdown negligence in Oswald's death for many reasons, still their doing so was legally justified.

Oswald was a "suspect" in their custody.

Not a tried and convicted perp.

Oswald's life depended on the DPD. His physical safety was the most important responsibility in their history.

It was totally their fault that Oswald was killed in their custody.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Gerry Down]

In the book "No More Silence" Stavis Ellis said the other officers were annoyed that Baker had let Oswald go, but they said nothing about it to him. So presumably Baker got no official sanctioning over it, just talk behind his back.

[Tommy Tomlinson]

43 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

I've never heard anyone mention Marion Baker being negligent at all regarding moving on up the stairs after encountering Oswald in the TXSBD lunch room.

He relied on Truly's assurance that Oswald was an employee and it was okay for him to be there.

And Baker's actions didn't result in Oswald's death.

Now, Dallas Police Department Chief Jesse Curry's ignoring concerns by fellow department personnel about moving Oswald in broad daylight ( versus a discreet night time one )  announcing to the public the approximate time frame of the move and allowing the basement area to be packed with shouting, bright lights shining including flash bulb ones newsmen just feet from Oswald was epic historic negligence worthy of criminal charges imo.

Curry's stubborn refusal to consider safer Oswald transfer advice resulted in an event that created unprecedented mass mistrust by a majority of Americans for generations regards their own federal government due to the most important piece of truth revealing evidence in the JFK case with Oswald's assassination being lost/destroyed ... right in his own building!

This mistrust ( rationally justified ) hugely damaged our society in many ways.

Knowing why Lee Oswald's survivors would not sue the DPD for their gross security breakdown negligence in Oswald's death for many reasons, still their doing so was legally justified.

Oswald was a "suspect" in their custody.

Not a tried and convicted perp.

Oswald's life depended on the DPD. His physical safety was the most important responsibility in their history.

It was totally their fault that Oswald was killed in their custody.

 

 

That all makes logical sense Joe, I agree there's no reason he SHOULD have caught flack,  I just wondered if... people being people... whether Marrion ever fell foul of the "Well, if YOU'd stopped the guy in the bookstore.

Like you say, it would have been unfair indeed, but many fingers have been pointed in error over this case.

 

And the way Curry handled... well... pretty much everything.. is worthy of several books worth of exploration.

[Tommy Tomlinson]

49 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

In the book "No More Silence" Stavis Ellis said the other officers were annoyed that Baker had let Oswald go, but they said nothing about it to him. So presumably Baker got no official sanctioning over it, just talk behind his back.

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I was thinking. I would have been surprised if he had been sanctioned, given that he was at no fault. But its both good and, I have to say, mildly surprising that they didn't throw it in his face. Thanks.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Tommy Tomlinson
Typo

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

That all makes logical sense Joe, I agree there's no reason he SHOULD have caught flack,  I just wondered if... people being people... whether Marrion ever fell foul of the "Well, if YOU'd stopped the guy in the bookstore.

Like you say, it would have been unfair indeed, but many fingers have been pointed in error over this case.

 

And the way Curry handled... well... pretty much everything... is worthy of several books worth of exploration.

Curry kept stating he wanted the press to see his department wasn't mistreating Oswald in letting the press almost unfettered access into the DPD building starting Friday night.

I always felt that was an oxymoronic statement considering the frantic chaos that the pressing crowd created inside the DPD.

Dallas PD homicide detective Jim Leavelle stated in more than one interview that the press crowd was so huge and packed inside the floors where they were dealing with Oswald it was ridiculous. Big cameras, cables strung out across the floor. You had to push your way through them to get anywhere. 

At one point Leavelle bragged how one press person was so bold he stuck his head between Leavelle's legs to get a picture and Leavelle gave him a kick so hard the fellow flew back against a wall!

Leavelle seemed bothered by the decision to allow the press into police business close quarters like Curry did.

Doing so allowed an armed Jack Ruby to infiltrate this press crowd. Ruby was right there when Oswald was brought out in front of the press crowd Friday night.

Now that's tight security?

Looking back, considering the importance of Oswald's personal safety, my common sense would have been to keep the press outside of the DPD building at all times. Too easy for such a crowd to be infiltrated by non-press people such as Ruby who did this twice.

So, Curry's constant stated reason to have the press swarm the inside of his building to see his department wasn't mistreating Oswald, perversely led to Oswald's murder right inside it!

Oswald probably should have been taken to a nearby military facility with a small army of security around him at all times. His security was that important.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Tommy Tomlinson]

2 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Curry kept stating he wanted the press to see his department wasn't mistreating Oswald in letting the press almost unfettered access into the DPD building starting Friday night.

I always felt that was an oxymoronic statement considering the frantic chaos that the pressing crowd created inside the DPD.

Dallas PD homicide detective Jim Leavelle stated in more than one interview that the press crowd was so huge inside the floors where they were dealing with Oswald it was ridiculous. Big cameras, cables strung out across the floor. You had to push your way through them to get anywhere. 

At one point Leavelle bragged how one press person was so bold he stuck his head between Leavelle's legs to get a picture and Leavelle gave him a kick so hard the fellow flew back against a wall!

Leavelle seemed bothered by the decision to allow the press into close quarters like Curry did.

Doing so allowed an armed Jack Ruby to infiltrate this press crowd. Ruby was right there when Oswald was brought out in front of the press crowd Friday night.

Now that's tight security?

Looking back, considering the importance of Oswald's personal safety, my common sense would have been to keep the press outside of the DPD building at all times. Too easy for such a crowd to be infiltrated by non-press people such as Ruby who did this twice.

So, Curry's constant stated reason to have the press swarm the inside of his building to see his department wasn't mistreating Oswald, perversely led to Oswald's murder right inside their building!

Oswald probably should have been taken to a military facility with a small army of security around him at all times. His security was that important.

I often get confused about the jurisdictional mandates, but I always wondered... wouldn't someone on a Federal level, not necessarily FBI but Justice Department related been trying to run some sort of playbook on how to handle all that? Some sort of DoJ "handler"?

I've read plenty of pieces that describe the DPD of that time as being tough, proud, and pretty bloody stubborn, so was a lot of it down to Curry saying to the Feds "I got this, back the Hell away" do you think?

Or perhaps more of a concerted base/ass covering exercise, and an over abundance of transparency or maybe something other?

[Ken Davies]

The feds had no jurisdiction. Killing a president was not a federal offence.

[Joe Bauer]

Curry telling the Feds "to back off?" I got this?

Ha. The FBI jumped in and in just a couple of days had Curry's DPD sending them all the important physical evidence. They took over in that regards.

The FBI took over so many aspects of the investigation. Questioning Marina, Ruth Paine and so many others.

Suspicious that the FBI didn't get the DOJ to take over Oswald's security.

After all, he was the main and most important piece of evidence of all.

You would have thought Oswald's security would have been their highest concern.

I always wondered what J.Edgar Hoover said when he first heard of Oswald being killed right inside the DPD basement.

He knew the entire case against Oswald and learning about JFK's killing was lost.

Didn't any higher authority above Curry, angrily call him in and dress him up and down for his greatest police security lapse in our history?

The FBI wanted all the evidence they could get...but they left the most important piece of all back in Curry's DPD hands... and it was destroyed in less than 48 hours in their care.

Tens of millions of average every day working class Americans were furious at the DPD for the muder of Oswald right inside their own building.

They ( me included) knew the truth of what happened to JFK was lost along with Oswald.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ken Davies said:

The feds had no jurisdiction. Killing a president was not a federal offence.

But the feds stole the body, and that was largely it for the investigation.

At least until LHO got shot, but that didn't take long to happen.

These 2 "events" would destroy any reputation/career, not so in Dallas it seems ? 

 

[Joe Bauer]

6 minutes ago, Ken Davies said:

The feds had no jurisdiction. Killing a president was not a federal offence.

Ken, that sure didn't stop the feds from absconding with JFK's body from Parkland.

Violating Texas state law in the process.

 

[Ken Davies]

 I am not defending anything that the FEDS, in their various alphabet soup titles did or failed to do. I am merely pointing out that the FEDS had no legal authority to take control of the case. Killing a president was not a federal offence st the time! 🤔

[Bill Fite]

With hindsight -- 

IIRC Baker was a traffic cop 

But wouldn't any policeman in a city be trained to seal off the avenue of escape if alone and wait for the others to arrive?

I've never understood his immediately heading up the stairs (with Truly making it even worse IMO)  opening up escape routes behind him if he missed someone on a floor or in an office.

 

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Bill Fite said:

With hindsight -- 

IIRC Baker was a traffic cop 

But wouldn't any policeman in a city be trained to seal off the avenue of escape if alone and wait for the others to arrive?

I've never understood his immediately heading up the stairs (with Truly making it even worse IMO)  opening up escape routes behind him if he missed someone on a floor or in an office.

 

Baker didn't see the rifle. He said many times he thought something had happened on the roof of the TSBD or Dal-Tex, and he ran up there to get a better look. IOW, he would have looked pretty foolish if he'd raced in there and shut down the building and it turned out the sounds he'd heard had been backfires. 

It seems possible, moreover, that he talked to Truly as they ran in, and Truly placed Shelley at the front door and Piper at the back, to stop anyone from running out. This is but one of the many areas avoided by Ball and Belin. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Allen Lowe]

one thing we are missing is that Baker's story about Oswald and the lunchroom is possibly a fiction concocted as part of the cover up. His original affidavit, made on 11/22/63, says "as we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway....I called to the man and he turned around, and came back toward me...the manager said "I know that man he works here."

Third or fourth floor. No mention of a lunch room.

no ID of LHO, just a description, 5'9" 165 pounds, dark hair, light brown jacket

Was LHO wearing a brown jacket that day? He was 5'11 140 pounds, IIRC. 25 pounds is a big difference. 2 inches in height is less significant, but it doesn't, at least to me, add up.

So we don't know if that was Oswald he saw. Unless I am missing something.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Allen Lowe