Dick Russell on Richard Case Nagell. New podcast

[David Boylan]

Dick's new podcast - https://trinedaythejourneypodcast.buzzsprout.com/1284782/12030211-117-dick-russell-hiding-the-truth-about-jfk-s-death-drags-our-democracy-down

[Gene Kelly]

David

I would be interested in your take on Nagell.  His story is a bit difficult to believe (i.e., almost too good to be true). It's not easy to validate much of it, as a lot derives from 2nd-hand sources like Professor Richard Popkin and others (Bill Turner, Dick Russell).   It's reassuring that Jim Garrison believed in Nagell's story, and some of the evidence and anecdotes are hard to ignore.  It is unclear who he was working for/with in the early 60's ... his military intelligence career ended in 1959, and he had some controversial experiences in the early 60's in California.  There are also documents out there that indicate he experienced brain trauma, and he is characterized as unsteady by many who encountered him.  It also doesn't seem that his marriage and family life were sound.  

Gene

[Matt Allison]

I just finished going through all 221 pages of this:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10305-10005.pdf

It's been enlightening; there is evidence that Nagell was in Los Angeles for the majority of the summer of 1963, which will naturally cast some doubt about his claims of doing work in New Orleans that summer.

[David Boylan]

Gene,

I found Nagell exasperating. He never quite tells us what he knew. And he had plenty of chances.

I did find a name and address in his notebook interesting - Dr. John Lechner, Americanism Educational League. Lechner was an extreme right-winger that was associated with Hall, Howard, Gabaldon, Burt Mold and Clint Wheat. Harry Dean knew Lechner and revealed that it was from Lechner that Hall, Howard and Alba got their medical supplied that they took to Dallas and left at Lester Logue's house. If my memory is still working, Burt Mold and Carlos Quesada (30th November Group) met with Paulino Sierra in Chicago

[Benjamin Cole]

Maybe everything Nagell said is true. The problem is, almost none of it can be verified. 

 

[Ron Bulman]

On 1/12/2023 at 11:05 AM, David Boylan said:

Dick's new podcast - https://trinedaythejourneypodcast.buzzsprout.com/1284782/12030211-117-dick-russell-hiding-the-truth-about-jfk-s-death-drags-our-democracy-down

This is almost more Kris Millegan talking than Dick Russell.  In that respect it kind of goes all over the place from the big Walker book, to taking Judy Baker to the 50th conferences, to Marlyin Monroe (No, the Kennedy's didn't have her done but she knew enough from JFK to have herself done in by the mob or . . . Really?). 

I still consider Nagell as to be taken as a serious enigma.  Russell did a lot of research over an extended period of time.  There are verified connections between Nagell and Oswald.  Shared use of Hidell, Mexico City Cuban consulate phone number in both's notes, Atsugi.  More in The Man Who Knew Too Much.

One thing that caught my attention was the Trent Parker of the ONI/CIA tape he had or had heard?  Nelson Rockefeller, LBJ, Dulles, Hoover with Harriman and David Rockefeller off to the side discussing the assassination before it happened?  I've never read of this.  Attributed to Defrauding America by a Rodney Stich.  Has anyone else here ever read this book? 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Gene Kelly]

Ron/Ben/David:

Kris Milligan, publisher of the Oregon-based Trinday books, did do most of the talking in the Podcast.  When he started to expound upon JVB, it turned me off.   Nagell is a tough nut to crack ... lots of tantalizing stories and connections, some of which are difficult to ignore.  Surely the policeman who arrested him in El Paso can attest to what Nagell said about what was coming in Dallas ... that part seems to be corroborated and hard to ignore.  Then he is incarcerated for several years - taken out of the picture (like Abraham Bolden) - and reappears to convince Garrison of his bona fides.  While Nagell is eccentric and an enigma, it does seem that he played games with the story up until his death.  Tapes and documents that are allegedly stolen, but never show up or become revealed ... letters purportedly sent to Congressmen, FBI and others, but undated and no longer available.  Just quite sure what to think about him ... and what was he doing a year earlier (in 1962) with Oswald in Mexico?  However, he has all of these interesting artifacts of Oswald's, and he does single-out Carlos Quiroga and another Cuban as his companions that summer. 

Gene 

[Ron Bulman]

I'd love to see Robbie Robertson interview Dick Russell.  His typical hour to hour and a half or so with a few prescient questions from a younger perspective scattered in while letting him talk.

[Benjamin Cole]

27 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Ron/Ben/David:

Kris Milligan, publisher of the Oregon-based Trinday books, did do most of the talking in the Podcast.  When he started to expound upon JVB, it turned me off.   Nagell is a tough nut to crack ... lots of tantalizing stories and connections, some of which are difficult to ignore.  Surely the policeman who arrested him in El Paso can attest to what Nagell said about what was coming in Dallas ... that part seems to be corroborated and hard to ignore.  Then he is incarcerated for several years - taken out of the picture (like Abraham Bolden) - and reappears to convince Garrison of his bona fides.  While Nagell is eccentric and an enigma, it does seem that he played games with the story up until his death.  Tapes and documents that are allegedly stolen, but never show up or become revealed ... letters purportedly sent to Congressmen, FBI and others, but undated and no longer available.  Just quite sure what to think about him ... and what was he doing a year earlier (in 1962) with Oswald in Mexico?  However, he has all of these interesting artifacts of Oswald's, and he does single-out Carlos Quiroga and another Cuban as his companions that summer. 

Gene 

Gene---I am open-mined about Nagell, and would happily embrace any verification of his many claims. After all, I am a  CT'er. 

But Nagell's paper goods---the provenance is very sketchy. I have never seen anyone provide evidence on when the Hidell cards were made, nor has Nagell provided a shred of evidence he mailed a letter to Hoover, pre-JFKA.

I agree with you that the arresting policeman, well after the fact, appears to confirm remarks Nagell said he made in El Paso, about an impending event in Dallas. However, whether pro- or anti CT'er, witness testimony is all over the board. People remember things, especially if it adds drama to their lives, or, conversely, cements them in with authorities. 

And jeez, Nagell's reasoning is incredibly nutty. Shoot up a bank to get arrested and thus unable to participate in the JFKA? Why not go backpacking in the High Sierra, or stay at an obscure motel in Phoenix? A cheap beachside inn near Tijuana?

IMHO, Nagell gives anti-CT JFKA critics a lot of ammo to work with. 

Something is there on Nagell, he may have been used by intel agencies.  He may have even been someone sent to Garrison, to eventually discredit Garrison, ala Charles Spiesel. 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Matt Allison]

1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

Surely the policeman who arrested him in El Paso can attest to what Nagell said about what was coming in Dallas ... that part seems to be corroborated and hard to ignore. 

I bought TMWKTM back when it was first published, and read it countless times.

I never believed Bundren's statement referenced here. Not then, not now.

It sounded overly dramatic, not real, and it didn't make sense with the chronology. To me, it sounded like yet another of the Texas tall tales that various people have verbalized over the years that have done nothing but make JFKA research look foolish. Madeline Brown, Beverly Oliver, etc

[Gene Kelly]

A January 2018 article in Who/What/Why by Dick Russell, "How to Get the CIA’s Attention: Threaten a JFK Assassination Reveal" has some interesting points about why Nagell never testified at the Shaw trial for Garrison. His outreach to Garrison was aborted because Nagell suspected that Garrison's investigation had been penetrated by the CIA (which was true) and anything he said would be compromised: 

On April 3, 1968, while Nagell was in Leavenworth Penitentiary serving a ten-year sentence for “attempted bank robbery,” the US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit handed down a decision that “the evidence introduced by the Government is not sufficient to maintain [Nagell’s] conviction. Upon his release, Nagell flew to New York and met twice with Jim Garrison in Central Park. [Garrison verified the get-togethers in interviews with Russell]. Issued a new passport, Nagell soon flew to Zurich, Switzerland. According to an earlier released 1969 Secret Service report, Nagell stated that the Garrison trial [of Clay Shaw] was getting ready to open in New Orleans and that ‘certain interests’ wanted him out of the country so that he could not be subpoenaed to appear.” A CIA cable describes what happened when, in early June 1968: Nagell walked into the American consulate in Zurich, met with a “political officer” and announced he’d been interviewed by Garrison “in connection ‘CIA and Pres Kennedy assassination.’” It goes on to say “Subj[ect] claims Garrison told him he in danger being killed. Therefore wants ‘inform CIA he in Zurich.’”

Russell points out in the 2018 article that individuals long involved in the CIA’s Oswald paper trail - including Jane Roman, Bruce Solie, and David Murphy - overlapped with that of the Nagell saga ... at a minimum, the Agency wanted to keep up with where he was and what he might be saying to whom.  Larry Hancock's blog lends credence to the Nagell story, and explains why he (Nagell) left New Orleans and ended up in an El Paso bank:

Nagell gives us word of a potential action involving the East Coast, but then relates that his own visibility to the Cubans forced him to flee New Orleans pursued by the Cubans. In order to escape their attention, he was decided to commit a fake bank robbery in El Paso, Texas. In doing so he was arrested and remained in jail beginning in September and through November 22.  That provided protection from the people who had been pursing him. 

Richard Sprague wrote that Dick Russell had obtained an agreement from Nagell to meet with the HSCA, but no contact had been made up to April 1978. Nagell was apparently hiding in fear of his children's lives (not so much his own life). Russell was the only person who knew where Nagell was, and a recommendation was given to Chairman Stokes that the committee contact Nagell through Russell. Stokes referred the Nagell matter to Robert Blakey for follow-up, but Blakey never mentioned it by telephone or by letter.  By September 1978, when the public hearings had begun, there was no indication that Blakey was going to call Nagell, who was standing by but had not been contacted.

Gene

[Benjamin Cole]

34 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

A January 2018 article in Who/What/Why by Dick Russell, "How to Get the CIA’s Attention: Threaten a JFK Assassination Reveal" has some interesting points about why Nagell never testified at the Shaw trial for Garrison. His outreach to Garrison was aborted because Nagell suspected that Garrison's investigation had been penetrated by the CIA (which was true) and anything he said would be compromised: 

On April 3, 1968, while Nagell was in Leavenworth Penitentiary serving a ten-year sentence for “attempted bank robbery,” the US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit handed down a decision that “the evidence introduced by the Government is not sufficient to maintain [Nagell’s] conviction. Upon his release, Nagell flew to New York and met twice with Jim Garrison in Central Park. [Garrison verified the get-togethers in interviews with Russell]. Issued a new passport, Nagell soon flew to Zurich, Switzerland. According to an earlier released 1969 Secret Service report, Nagell stated that the Garrison trial [of Clay Shaw] was getting ready to open in New Orleans and that ‘certain interests’ wanted him out of the country so that he could not be subpoenaed to appear.” A CIA cable describes what happened when, in early June 1968: Nagell walked into the American consulate in Zurich, met with a “political officer” and announced he’d been interviewed by Garrison “in connection ‘CIA and Pres Kennedy assassination.’” It goes on to say “Subj[ect] claims Garrison told him he in danger being killed. Therefore wants ‘inform CIA he in Zurich.’”

Russell points out in the 2018 article that individuals long involved in the CIA’s Oswald paper trail - including Jane Roman, Bruce Solie, and David Murphy - overlapped with that of the Nagell saga ... at a minimum, the Agency wanted to keep up with where he was and what he might be saying to whom.  Larry Hancock's blog lends credence to the Nagell story, and explains why he (Nagell) left New Orleans and ended up in an El Paso bank:

Nagell gives us word of a potential action involving the East Coast, but then relates that his own visibility to the Cubans forced him to flee New Orleans pursued by the Cubans. In order to escape their attention, he was decided to commit a fake bank robbery in El Paso, Texas. In doing so he was arrested and remained in jail beginning in September and through November 22.  That provided protection from the people who had been pursing him. 

Richard Sprague wrote that Dick Russell had obtained an agreement from Nagell to meet with the HSCA, but no contact had been made up to April 1978. Nagell was apparently hiding in fear of his children's lives (not so much his own life). Russell was the only person who knew where Nagell was, and a recommendation was given to Chairman Stokes that the committee contact Nagell through Russell. Stokes referred the Nagell matter to Robert Blakey for follow-up, but Blakey never mentioned it by telephone or by letter.  By September 1978, when the public hearings had begun, there was no indication that Blakey was going to call Nagell, who was standing by but had not been contacted.

Gene

But Gene---Nagell's explanation for shooting up a bank is totally nutty. In fact, in prison, lacking any food or water other than that served by authorities, how safe is anybody? Jack Ruby comes to mind. 

In addition, surely in prison there are people who could be induced to put a shiv in any particular prisoner. 

On the other hand, back in 1963 anyone could enter Mexico, and stay at a low-cost villa 50 miles south of Ensenada. 

Nagell appears to have been deeply troubled. 

A thought occurs to me...intel agencies might actually prefer to use mentally troubled individuals for certain assignments. Then later, even if the "crazy" person tells the truth in court, they are easily discredited by all the other nutty commentary they make. 

The CIA may have actually dangled Nagell in front of Garrison. But Garrison did not bite. 

Just a thought. 

 

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

I bought TMWKTM back when it was first published, and read it countless times.

I never believed Bundren's statement referenced here. Not then, not now.

It sounded overly dramatic, not real, and it didn't make sense with the chronology. To me, it sounded like yet another of the Texas tall tales that various people have verbalized over the years that have done nothing but make JFKA research look foolish. Madeline Brown, Beverly Oliver, etc

Matt, I find Madeline and Beverly more than a stretch.  But Bundren I've thought credible.  He was a young cop when it happened.  Impressionable as it was a confusing situation.  Then questioned out of the blue by Russell a dozen years later his answers seem straightforward and honest.  The FBI told him it couldn't be discussed.  Just another mid sized Texas tale.  

[Bob Ness]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

intel agencies might actually prefer to use mentally troubled individuals for certain assignments. Then later, even if the "crazy" person tells the truth in court, they are easily discredited by all the other nutty commentary they make. 

It's all part of their MO. In some ways the nuttier the better, depending on the task. If you ever met some of these people you realize they don't recruit peripheral actors that are masterpieces of mental health. The closer to Langley the more stable but not necessarily cuffed to legal and moral principles. I'm sure it's in the Idiots Guide to CIA Tradecraft somewhere. Select people for actions based on their ability to accomplish the task calibrated to their vulnerability to suggestion, depending on the requirements of the job.

Is the subject capable of killing someone and what vulnerabilty do they have that will convince them to do it and stay quiet afterwards? If they don't stay quiet what options exist to neutralize them? All factored into the recruitment. Spygame 101.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Bob Ness

[Ron Bulman]

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

This is almost more Kris Millegan talking than Dick Russell.  In that respect it kind of goes all over the place from the big Walker book, to taking Judy Baker to the 50th conferences, to Marlyin Monroe (No, the Kennedy's didn't have her done but she knew enough from JFK to have herself done in by the mob or . . . Really?). 

I still consider Nagell as to be taken as a serious enigma.  Russell did a lot of research over an extended period of time.  There are verified connections between Nagell and Oswald.  Shared use of Hidell, Mexico City Cuban consulate phone number in both's notes, Atsugi.  More in The Man Who Knew Too Much.

One thing that caught my attention was the Trent Parker of the ONI/CIA tape he had or had heard?  Nelson Rockefeller, LBJ, Dulles, Hoover with Harriman and David Rockefeller off to the side discussing the assassination before it happened?  I've never read of this.  Attributed to Defrauding America by a Rodney Stich.  Has anyone else here ever read this book? 

So, this book is one in a series of thirty?

Defrauding America : A Pattern of Related Scandals, 2nd Edition: Stich, Rodney: 8601416685267: Amazon.com: Books

Rodney Stich (ariwatch.com)