Allen Dulles and his Nazi Pals in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Benjamin Cole]

32 minutes ago, Bob Ness said:

That's correct. He wanted to surrender to them at Camp David and Bolton through a fit is my understanding. He signed an agreement to leave that was to occur after the election, if I recall correctly.

Getting out of Afcrapistan is best thing any recent US president did. If Trump gets the credit, so be it. 

Surrender? I don't think the Taliban required to US to disarm (think Japan, WWII). 

Is this what US partisan polemics has come to?

An occupational war is "good" if prosecuted by a Donk, but "bad" if prosecuted by a 'Phant?

Vietnam was a good war under LBJ, but went sour when Nixon got in? 

Leaving Afcracpistan was a "surrender" under Trump's watch, but a sensible withdrawal when implemented by Biden? 

 

[John Cotter]

5 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

John,

    Your analysis makes no sense.  Let me explain why.

    1) Trump supporters are authoritarians who have, like Trump, idealized Putin as a fascist strongman.  For example, when Putin first invaded Ukraine one year ago, Trump declared that, "Putin is a genius!"

        Putin has long been a pin up boy for the Trumpsters.

        So, unlike British liberals, Trump supporters oppose support for Ukraine not because they are pacifists, but because they admire Putin and his quasi-fascist factotum, Donald Trump.

     2) Putin's personality and Stalinist/Andropov upbringing are absolutely relevant to his foreign policy-- his agenda of re-establishing the Soviet empire as an imperialist, totalitarian police state.

          Are you familiar with the histories of Spiridon, Mikhail, and Vlad Putin, Sr.?

           I would urge you and Paul Rigby to educate yourselves about Putin's 21st century FSB oligarchy by studying Catherine Belton's well-researched history, Putin's People.

          Also, have you studied the Mitrokhin archives?  Solzhenitsyn?  Konstantin Preobrazhensky?

          Set aside the ubiquitous KGB disinformazia in the Western media.  Putin and his KGB goons have used it for decades.

         

William, 

You are persisting in your illogicality.

The arguments for and against Russia's invasion of Ukraine stand or fall on their own merits.

The political views of those presenting the arguments are irrelevant.

The same goes for Putin's personality and his ruling methods.

[Paul Rigby]

How did the US produce a generation of European leaders whose fealty lies with Washington and not their own people? Three case studies for three different European colonies:

Declassified UK: Secretive US embassy-backed group cultivating UK left

Matt Kennard

24 NOVEMBER 2022

https://declassifieduk.org/the-secretive-us-embassy-backed-group-cultivating-the-british-left/

The British-American Project (BAP), founded in the 1980s with US embassy funding in response to CIA concerns about 'anti-American' drift in the Labor Party, has recently added senior Labor politicians to its secret membership rolls, according to Declassified.

How Did the German Greens Become the Party of Warmongers?

by Conor Gallagher

Posted on February 10, 2023

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/02/how-did-the-german-greens-become-the-party-of-war-mongers.html

Unlocked: Young Jens: What Was Stoltenberg Doing at Age 15?

https://www.patreon.com/posts/unlocked-young-78471711

The consequences for Europe of America’s attempt to cling on to global hegemony:

The Newly Poor in Germany

https://youtube.com/watch?v=6dgE7Lp5j_w&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE

Ukraine War means "dark times" for the UK  by Andrew Marr for The New Statesman podcast:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=2mrgfkIS6PQ&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE

Companies in UK Are Hitting the Wall at Fastest Rate Since Global Financial Crisis

Posted on February 3, 2023 by Nick Corbishley

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/02/companies-in-uk-are-closing-their-doors-at-fastest-rate-since-global-financial-crisis.html

 

[Guest]

I feel a bit for you in this thread, simply because I can see that you are trying very hard in earnest to bring this very important conversation back on track. Your sense of reasoning and rationality has been consistent from the off. I think you have asked some very important questions in the last few days which should have prompted people on all sides of the discussion to respond with their ideas and solutions to this grave problem. 
 

There is a much needed dialogue about the prudence of the present course of foreign policy. The Russo Ukraine war is affecting everyone in many ways, not least the poor souls having to fight it. It’s very frustrating to feel largely like you have Pandora’s Curse in this matter, seeing something disgraceful occurring in real time, trying to warn others of a huge mistake, and having it fall on deaf ears. It’s very sad that the masses are walked into opinions by fraudulent politicians, propaganda, and psychological methods. The ideas don’t serve them, time and time again, and its always a ‘fait accompli’ when it comes to people seeing events for what they are.
 

However, with my optimistic hat on, I realise and understand that things would be significantly worse if we had no ‘conscientious objectors’, critics or dissenters of imprudent foreign policy at all. I think that’s what keeps me posting, that and the words of some great inspirational historical figures. A butterfly effect can make a difference in ways we can’t imagine right now. Consent does still sit with the masses and if we want our countries foreign policy to change, all we need to do is withdraw our consent, en mass. 
 

 

[Matthew Koch]

Lance's behavior on this forum has always been condescending and  malicious. I put him on ignore for calling me a scoundrel and a Loon the other day because I have no faith in the mods.. 

When he isn't bad faith projecting on people that they believe in UFO's ie, they're stupid or mentally ill. Lance when cornered on facts he changes the subject because he's just a snake oil salesman here to disrupt the forum..

As he is now doing again by accusing people of being "Agents for Putin" he's alleging that a conspiracy that he has no info for past his faith and feeling. This is taking place because Chris blew him out of the water with his reply's. 

[W. Niederhut]

6 hours ago, John Cotter said:

William, 

You are persisting in your illogicality.

The arguments for and against Russia's invasion of Ukraine stand or fall on their own merits.

The political views of those presenting the arguments are irrelevant.

The same goes for Putin's personality and his ruling methods.

John,

     At the risk of providing more fodder for another one of Chris B's weird ad hominem Chrissy Fits, let me mention that I was a math and philosophical logic ace in college.  Logic is one of my strong suits, and you are misrepresenting my arguments here.  It's an odd way to pretend that you are winning a debate.

     I have already outlined for you guys the basic logical structure of the competing premises on this thread about the primary cause of Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

Premise A-- The invasion is the latest step in Putin's longstanding agenda of re-establishing the Soviet Union as a totalitarian, FSB police state.  (My opinion.)

Premise B-- Putin is a victim of imperialistic U.S./NATO expansion-- i.e., U.S., NATO, and Ukrainian Yahtzees are responsible for Putin's decision to invade and bomb civilians in Ukraine.  

     My comments about right wing Trumpsters-- and, apparently, British Labor Party liberals-- opposing military support for Ukraine are not really relevant to the fundamental debate about Premise A vs. Premise B.

     Hence, you are misrepresenting my arguments.

     As for the relationship between Putin's personality and "ruling methods" and his longstanding FSB agenda of re-establishing the Soviet Union, it is the essential thesis of Catherine Belton's analysis in Putin's People.

     Belton's thesis is that the KGB had anticipated the collapse of the USSR in the 1990s, and that KGB Lt. Col. Putin was a pivotal figure in their longstanding KGB/FSB strategy of re-establishing the Soviet empire as an FSB police state.

[W. Niederhut]

Apropos of Premise B (above) 

Was NATO Expansion Really the Cause of Putin’s Invasion? | American Diplomacy Est 1996 (unc.edu)

May 2022

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

John,

     At the risk of providing more fodder for another one of Chris B's weird ad hominem Chrissy Fits, let me mention that I was a math and philosophical logic ace in college.  Logic is one of my strong suits, and you are misrepresenting my arguments here.  It's an odd way to pretend that you are winning a debate.

     I have already outlined for you guys the basic logical structure of the competing premises on this thread about the primary cause of Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

Premise A-- The invasion is the latest step in Putin's longstanding agenda of re-establishing the Soviet Union as a totalitarian, FSB police state.  (My opinion.)

Premise B-- Putin is a victim of imperialistic U.S./NATO expansion-- i.e., U.S., NATO, and Ukrainian Yahtzees are responsible for Putin's decision to invade and bomb civilians in Ukraine.  

     My comments about right wing Trumpsters-- and, apparently, British Labor Party liberals-- opposing military support for Ukraine are not really relevant to the fundamental debate about Premise A vs. Premise B.

     Hence, you are misrepresenting my arguments.

     As for the relationship between Putin's personality and "ruling methods" and his longstanding FSB agenda of re-establishing the Soviet Union, it is the essential thesis of Catherine Belton's analysis in Putin's People.

     Belton's thesis is that the KGB had anticipated the collapse of the USSR in the 1990s, and that KGB Lt. Col. Putin was a pivotal figure in their longstanding KGB/FSB strategy of re-establishing the Soviet empire as an FSB police state.

I think we both view this more than as an intellectual exercise. As stated, I had a dear friend of Ukrainian heritage move to Russia and Ukraine in the early 90's, and come back convinced it was just a matter of time before Russia invaded. He told me this even before Putin came to power. He saw that there was a hole in the soul of the Russian people that would likely be filled by a charismatic leader, and that this charismatic leader would likely push them to regain their former "glory" as opposed to rebuild their national identity around hard work, family, and religion. He told me that the people he'd worked with, by and large, were lazy, because they were used to the government taking care of them, and knocking them down when they tried to take care of themselves. He saw further that those who'd had a history of looking out for themselves--mostly criminals--had embraced capitalism and had the upper hand in the new economy. He said he left Moscow because he got tired of the attitudes of the workers, as well as the attitudes of those with whom he had to do business--who were always looking for angles and were frequently requesting bribes. 

In any event, that was just one man's impression. But I later befriended a young Russian woman who'd moved to the states. She told me she still loved Putin, and that we should disregard all the bad things I'd heard about him. When I asked her why she believed him, and not all the evidence of his corruption and treachery, she got a smile on her face and said that Americans just couldn't understand--that he made Russians feel good again--and safe. 

I've always been a talker, and have always been curious about religion, and have had numerous conversations on the street with followers of Rajneesh, Hubbard, LaRouche, etc. And they had that same look in their eyes. A twinkle. 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Pat Speer

[W. Niederhut]

33 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I think we both view this more than as an intellectual exercise. As stated, I had a dear friend of Ukrainian heritage move to Russia and Ukraine in the early 90's, and come back convinced it was just a matter of time before Russia invaded. He told me this even before Putin came to power. He saw that there was a hole in the soul of the Russian people that would likely be filled by a charismatic leader, and that this charismatic leader would likely push them to regain their former "glory" as opposed to rebuild their national identity around hard work, family, and religion. He told me that the people he'd worked with, by and large, were lazy, because they were used to the government taking care of them, and knocking them down when they tried to take care of themselves. He saw further that those who'd had a history of looking out for themselves--mostly criminals--had embraced capitalism and had the upper hand in the new economy. He said he left Moscow because he got tired of the attitudes of the workers, as well as the attitudes of those with whom he had to do business--who were always looking for angles and were frequently requesting bribes. 

In any event, that was just one man's impression. But I later befriended a young Russian woman who'd moved to the states. She told me she still loved Putin, and that we should disregard all the bad things I'd heard about him. When I asked her why she believed him, and not all the evidence of his corruption and treachery, she got a smile on her face and said that Americans just couldn't understand--that he made Russians feel good again--and safe. 

I've always been a talker, and have always been curious about religion, and have had numerous conversations on the street with followers of Rajneesh, Hubbard, LaRouche, etc. And they had that same look in their eyes. A twinkle. 

 

Pat,

     As a member of the exiled Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR) during the past quarter century, I was privy to some rather shocking things that the general public doesn't know about.  These events occurred prior to, during, and after Putin and the FSB seized control of the ROCOR through an internal political coup in 2007.

    I confess that prior to 2007 I also had a fairly positive opinion of Vladimir Putin, as a judicious leader who had stabilized the Russian Federation after the Yeltsin years.  It was only after 2007 that I became aware of Putin's dark side.  He wanted to use the ROCOR -- the last remnant of the Russian Orthodox Church that had not been corrupted by the KGB in the 20th century--as a mere outpost for Russian espionage.  At the time, he explicitly told ITASS that, "Religion is one of Russia's most important weapons of self defense!"

    One example of FSB activity in the ROCOR that I only learned about after 2006 was the forcible kidnapping and ouster of our former Chief Hierarch, ROCOR Metropolitan Vitaly, (Ustinov) in New York in 2000.  Vitaly's FSB abductors then petitioned for guardianship, on the grounds of mental incompetence, in a case that went all the way to the New York Supreme Court.  (They lost the case.)  Vitaly had strongly opposed the takeover of the ROCOR by Putin's Moscow Patriarchate.

    I also know of one other case of a ROCOR bishop who was physically assaulted, threatened, and induced to acquiesce in the MP takeover of the ROCOR.  It was a 180 degree flip flop on the issue of ROCOR/MP relations.

    According to former KGB Lt. Col. Konstantin Preobrazhensky, Putin's seizure of the ROCOR in Western Europe and the U.S.  in 2007 was part of a longstanding KGB plot.  I posted a review of Prebrazhensky's 2009 book at Amazon.*

*  KGB/FSB's New Trojan Horse: Americans of Russian Descent: Konstantin Preobrazhensky, Various, Andy Glad Graphic Design: 9780615249087: Amazon.com: Books

Edited February 12, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Pat,

     As a member of the exiled Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR) during the past quarter century, I was privy to some rather shocking things that the general public doesn't know about.  These events occurred prior to, during, and after Putin and the FSB seized control of the ROCOR through an internal political coup in 2007.

    I confess that prior to 2007 I also had a fairly positive opinion of Vladimir Putin, as a judicious leader who had stabilized the Russian Federation after the Yeltsin years.  It was only after 2007 that I became aware of Putin's dark side.  He wanted to use the ROCOR -- the last remnant of the Russian Orthodox Church that had not been corrupted by the KGB in the 20th century--as a mere outpost for Russian espionage.  At the time, he explicitly told ITASS that, "Religion is one of Russia's most important weapons of self defense!"

    One example of FSB activity in the ROCOR that I only learned about after 2006 was the forcible kidnapping and ouster of our former Chief Hierarch, ROCOR Metropolitan Vitaly, (Ustinov) in New York in 2000.  Vitaly's FSB abductors then petitioned for guardianship, on the grounds of mental incompetence, in a case that went all the way to the New York Supreme Court.  (They lost the case.)  Vitaly had strongly opposed the takeover of the ROCOR by Putin's Moscow Patriarchate.

    I also know of one other case of a ROCOR bishop who was physically assaulted, threatened, and induced to acquiesce in the MP takeover of the ROCOR.  It was a 180 degree flip flop on the issue of ROCOR/MP relations.

    According to former KGB Lt. Col. Konstantin Preobrazhensky, Putin's seizure of the ROCOR in Western Europe and the U.S.  in 2007 was part of a longstanding KGB plot.  I posted a review of Prebrazhensky's 2009 book at Amazon.*

*  KGB/FSB's New Trojan Horse: Americans of Russian Descent: Konstantin Preobrazhensky, Various, Andy Glad Graphic Design: 9780615249087: Amazon.com: Books

William, thanks very much for this insight.

[Bob Ness]

8 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Apropos of Premise B (above) 

Was NATO Expansion Really the Cause of Putin’s Invasion? | American Diplomacy Est 1996 (unc.edu)

May 2022

I think nearly every point of this is obvious.

[John Cotter]

18 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

John,

     At the risk of providing more fodder for another one of Chris B's weird ad hominem Chrissy Fits, let me mention that I was a math and philosophical logic ace in college.  Logic is one of my strong suits, and you are misrepresenting my arguments here.  It's an odd way to pretend that you are winning a debate.

     I have already outlined for you guys the basic logical structure of the competing premises on this thread about the primary cause of Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

Premise A-- The invasion is the latest step in Putin's longstanding agenda of re-establishing the Soviet Union as a totalitarian, FSB police state.  (My opinion.)

Premise B-- Putin is a victim of imperialistic U.S./NATO expansion-- i.e., U.S., NATO, and Ukrainian Yahtzees are responsible for Putin's decision to invade and bomb civilians in Ukraine.  

     My comments about right wing Trumpsters-- and, apparently, British Labor Party liberals-- opposing military support for Ukraine are not really relevant to the fundamental debate about Premise A vs. Premise B.

     Hence, you are misrepresenting my arguments.

     As for the relationship between Putin's personality and "ruling methods" and his longstanding FSB agenda of re-establishing the Soviet Union, it is the essential thesis of Catherine Belton's analysis in Putin's People.

     Belton's thesis is that the KGB had anticipated the collapse of the USSR in the 1990s, and that KGB Lt. Col. Putin was a pivotal figure in their longstanding KGB/FSB strategy of re-establishing the Soviet empire as an FSB police state.

William,

When people cite their credentials in a debate, it's an admission that their arguments aren't strong enough in themselves to pass muster.

I don't understand why you feel the need to take a side swipe at another forum member in your reply to me.

The books and articles you cite are all centred on the same theme - the alleged wickedness of Putin, the dysfunctionality of his "regime" and the purported superiority in every way of the west. It's essentially the classic imperialistic, quasi racist, perspective which, ironically is itself irrational and immoral.

That kind of "thinking" precludes any objective or rational understanding of what's happening in Ukraine. It's the kind of thinking which caused the Ukraine conflict in the first place and which can only lead to its further destruction.

Your basic premise is that compared to Russia, the west can do no wrong. So, for example, as far as you're concerned, there's nothing wrong with a monumental act of terrorism such as the blowing up of the Nord Stream pipeline, because it was committed by the US and its vassal states.

Such perverse thinking is impervious to reason and this "debate" is going nowhere.

[Paul Rigby]

Video: America is at War with Europe

 By Prof Michel Chossudovsky

Global Research, February 11, 2023

Luxmedia and Global Research

https://www.globalresearch.ca/video-america-is-at-war-with-europe/5808102

“Throughout “all of this scheming,” the source said, “some working guys in the CIA and the State Department were saying, ‘Don’t do this. It’s stupid and will be a political nightmare if it comes out.’”

 “This is not kiddie stuff,” the source said. If the attack were traceable to the United States, “It’s an act of war.”

(How America Took Out the Nord Stream Pipeline, By Seymour M. Hersh, February 08, 2023, emphasis added)

***

Unfolding “Political Nightmare”

The evidence amply confirms that The Nord Stream was the object of an act of sabotage ordered by President Joe Biden.

Nord Stream –which originates in Russia– transits through the (maritime) territorial jurisdiction of four member states of the European Union. In international law, “Territorial Integrity” extends to “properties” located within the territorial waters of the Nation State.

From a legal standpoint (International Law: UN Charter, Law of the Sea) this was a U.S. Act of War against the European Union.

The deliberate destruction of said “properties” within a country’s territorial waters by or on behalf of a foreign state actor constitutes an act of war.

Germany’s Prosecutor General Peter Frank confirmed in an in-depth investigation that:

“there is no evidence to blame Russia for the destruction of the Nord Stream gas pipelines”.

If it Wasn’t Russia, Who was Behind it?

According to the Prosecutor General:

“[The suspicion] that there had been a foreign sabotage act [in this case], has so far not been substantiated”

Peter Frank casually dispels the role of the US president (which is amply confirmed) (see below).

The Attack is “Traceable”. It’s an Act of Economic and Social Warfare against the European Union.

The US act of sabotage coupled with the sanctions regime has created social havoc and hardship throughout the European Union. Inflation spearheaded by rising energy costs has gone fly high. People are freezing, unable to pay their heating bills.

While media reports fail to acknowledge the social and economic impacts of the US act of sabotage,  official EU sources confirm (without mentioning the cause) that:

“the number of its citizens living in energy poverty could be as high as 125 million” (28% of its total population).

Europe is in Debt Crisis. The Welfare State is being dismantled.

Destabilizing the EU Economy

The EU economy which has relied on cheap energy from Russia is in a shambles, marked by disruptions in the entire fabric of industrial production (manufacturing), transportation and commodity trade.

A string of corporate bankruptcies resulting in lay-offs and unemployment is unfolding across the European Union. Small and medium sized enterprises are slated to be wiped of map:

“Rocketing energy costs are savaging German industry”… 

“Germany’s manufacturing industry — which accounts for more than one fifth of the country’s economic output — is worried some of its companies won’t see the crisis through. …”

“Industry behemoths like Volkswagen (VLKAF) and Siemens (SIEGY) are grappling with supply chain bottlenecks too, but it is Germany’s roughly 200,000 small and medium-sized manufacturers who are less able to withstand the shock [of rising energy prices]

These companies are a vital part of the “Mittelstand,” the 2.6 million small- and medium-sized enterprises that account for more than half of German economic output and nearly two-thirds of the country’s jobs. Many are family-owned and deeply integrated into rural communities”

https://rumble.com/v291ufc-michel-chossudovsky-american-is-at-war-with-europe.html

[Paul Rigby]

What Hersh Got Wrong

MIKE WHITNEY • FEBRUARY 11, 2023

https://unzmag.net/mwhitney/what-hersh-got-wrong/

Extract:

Washington doesn’t care about Germany’s pathetic contribution to the war effort. What Washington cares about is power; pure, unalloyed power. And Washington’s global power was being directly challenged by European-Russian economic integration and the creation of a giant economic commons beyond its control. And the Nord Stream pipeline was at the very heart of this new bustling phenomenon. It was the main artery connecting the raw materials and labor of the east with the technology and industry of the west. It was a marriage of mutual interests that Washington had to destroy to maintain its grip on regional power.

[Paul Rigby]

Radio War Nerd EP #366 — Seymour Hersh on US Bombing Nord Stream Pipelines

Recorded: February 11, 2023

We talk to legendary Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Seymour Hersh about his latest bombshell scoop: the United States, on President Biden's orders, blew up the Nord Stream pipelines that were foundational to Germany's export economy until last year.

https://www.patreon.com/radiowarnerd/posts