Basic facts that seem like conspiracy-killers to me

[Jake Hammond]

14 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Yes most of those shows are garbage. They make you think they are going to solve the JFK murder mystery with tales of Oswald meeting up with mysterious people in Mexico, but they end up going nowhere. This forum, for all the tedium you have to wade through, I think is better steeped in the truth of what happened.

I have yet to hear a motive for Oswald to gun down JFK that could explain his comments to the press in the aftermath. Doesn't work for me. 

 

Completely agree, in fact I said that in an earlier comment. His attitude and actions post assassination read like someone who knows too much and is realising he's been framed. This is completely incongruous to the theory that he did it out of frustration, notoriety and political change. 

[James DiEugenio]

There were curtain rods found at Ruth Paine's house.

When people start making excuses for Brennan, I mean, whew. (Crossfire, first edition, pp. 25-29; VInce Palamara, Honest Answers, pp. 186-89). The best  one can say for this poseur is that he might have been looking at the wrong building. 

Frazier was under a lot, and I mean a lot, of pressure with the Enfield rifle, the affidavits the DPD wanted him to sign etc.  

And just remember what he said about the lock on his car door, and his sister being able to see through the slats in the carport. I might add that if you follow his sister's story closely, you will see how the FBI got her to modify her words so her seeing Oswald would be at least plausible.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Gil Jesus]

24 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

There were curtain rods found at Ruth Paine's house.

When people start making excuses for Brennan, I mean, whew. (Crossfire, first edition, pp. 25-29; VInce Palamara, Honest Answers, pp. 186-89). The best  one can say for this poseur is that he might have been looking at the wrong building. 

Frazier was under a lot, and I mean a lot, of pressure with the Enfield rifle, the affidavits the DPD wanted him to sign etc.  

And just remember what he said about the lock on his car door, and his sister being able to see through the slats in the carport. I might add that if you follow his sister's story closely, you will see how the FBI got her to modify her words so her seeing Oswald would be at least plausible.

 

To your point Jim, there's no way Linnie Mae Randle saw Oswald put a package into the back seat of Frazier's car. Frazier's car was parked on the outside of the carport and there's no way she could have seen through the outer wall.

[Ron Ege]

4 hours ago, Jake Hammond said:

I'm sure this has been said a million times but Oswald being at least part of a conspiracy i.e not quite the lone assassin we are supposed to believe and ' Oswald took a gun into the TSBD' are not mutually exclusive. Him being a ' Lone assassin' is conflated , IMO, way too readily with specific events of he day. His association with the FBI and very suspicious records show that at the very least he wasn't a knuckle dragging disgruntled loner. I do however urge CTers to really look at his actions, mental state and situation leading up to the assassination. They really do paint a guilty picture. 

Jake, thank you; I do understand your point.

I'm just wondering, considering all the evidence that's surfaced over the past almost six decades, that it is highly probable that Oswald was, indeed, an undercover low-level intelligence operative and perhaps even a confidential FBI informant, would that not color the actions/demeanor that he displayed, leading up to the assassination and immediately, thereafter - and thus appear to make him seem guilty (of something) - even though he had no part, whatsoever, in the assassination or the Tippit shooting; even more so, if he been duped into participating beforehand into participating in a "false flag" operation, as some have suggested - and realizing he'd been double-crossed, began "scrambling" whilst in custody, to begin proving his innocence - which, I think, to some, could've made look even more guilty.

To me, it would seem that undercover operatives' behaviors, after they been outed, though not thought to be maybe much suspicious theretofore, would suddenly become quite suspect, considering the surreptitious nature of the tradecraft involved. 

 

 

 

[Tom Gram]

8 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Then why did Lee tell this lie to Fritz? ....

"I asked him [Lee Oswald] if he had told Buell Wesley Frazier why he had gone home a different night, and if he had told him anything about bringing back some curtain rods. He denied it." -- Captain Will Fritz' written report [WCR; pg. 604]

So, you're going to try to convince people that LHO really did have curtain rods in that package on 11/22, but he then deliberately LIES to the police after he's arrested concerning that very thing---whether he did or did not bring curtain rods into the building?!

Come on! Let's not allow all common sense to go sliding down the drain here!

Or am I supposed to believe that Captain Fritz was the real li@r in the above quote from his report?

And if you think that Fritz was actually the person telling tall tales about the curtain rods, instead of Mr. Oswald being the li@r, then you also have no choice but to add FBI agent James Bookhout to your Li@rs List in this regard as well. Because Bookhout, in this 11/23/63 FBI report, said he also heard Oswald denying all knowledge of any curtain rods:

"He [LHO] denied telling Wesley Frazier that the purpose of his visit to Irving, Texas, on the night of November 21, 1963, was to obtain some curtain rods from Mrs. Ruth Paine." -- James W. Bookhout; Warren Report; Page 621
 

David, do you (or anyone else) have a list or something of any other statements in FBI reports, DPD reports, WC testimony, etc. about what Oswald allegedly said in his interrogations about why he went out to Irving that day? The quotes you provided are the only time this is mentioned in the entire WC list of interrogation reports: 

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/app11.htm

Fritz’s and Bookhout’s reports suggest that Oswald was asked if he told Frazier why he went out to Irving on a Thursday, and if he’d said anything about obtaining curtain rods. However, it is not clear at all what Oswald actually did say about why he went out to Irving - or the drive back to work in the morning. 

Is it not a little odd that there is no discussion whatsoever in Oswald’s interrogation reports about Frazier giving him a ride, what the real purpose was of his trip to Irving, or his trip to work and walk into the TSBD? You’d think that the DPD etc. would have said something like: “we have a witness, this boy Frazier, who claims he drove you to Irving and back, saw you with a long package, etc.” Did Oswald claim that Frazier was making it all up? Was Oswald ever asked how he got out to Irving and back to work?

Fritz’s testimony on this whole thing doesn’t exactly inspire confidence: 

Mr. FRITZ. He said he asked him what it was and he told him it was curtain rods. 
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. 
Mr. BALL. When? 
Mr. FRITZ. I talked to him about that on the last morning before his transfer. 
Mr. BALL. That was on Sunday morning? 
Mr. FRITZ. Sunday morning, that would be the 24th, wouldn't it? 
Mr. BALL. Yes. 
Mr. FRITZ. And I asked him about that and he denied having anything to do with any curtain rods. It is possible that I could have asked him that on one of those other times, too, but I know I asked him that question the last morning. 
Mr. BALL. Well, you learned about it on Friday night according to your reports here when Mr. Frazier came in and you gave Frazier a polygraph test. 
Mr. FRITZ. I hesitated to ask him about those curtain rods and I will tell you why I hesitated, because I wanted to find out more about that package before I got started with the curtain rods because if there were curtain rods I didn't want to mention it to him but we couldn't find--I talked to his wife and asked her if they were going to use any curtain rods, while I was talking to her that afternoon and she didn't know anything about it.
No; I believe I talked to Mrs. Paine, one of them. 
Mr. BALL. Do you think you talked to Oswald before Sunday morning about curtain rods? 
Mr. FRITZ. It is possible but I know I talked to him Sunday morning. 
Mr. BALL. Now, did you tell him what Frazier had told you? 
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know that I told him what Frazier had told me but I told him someone had told me. 
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? 
Mr. FRITZ. I told him he had a package and put it in the back seat and it was a package about that long and it was curtain rods. He said he didn't have any kind of a package but his lunch. He said he had his lunch and that is all he had, and Mr. Frazier told me that he got out of the car with that package, he saw him go toward the building with this long package.
I asked him, I said, "Did you go toward the building carrying a long package?"
He said, "No. I didn't carry anything but my lunch." 

Umm, how can Oswald deny that he said something to Frazier if he was never asked about Frazier? Also note that Fritz says nothing about asking Oswald about the trip to Irving on Thursday night. 

I flipped through Bookhout’s testimony and it looks like the curtain rod issue isn’t even mentioned. 

So yeah, I’m not convinced that we’re getting the full story here, at all. 

[James DiEugenio]

12 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

To your point Jim, there's no way Linnie Mae Randle saw Oswald put a package into the back seat of Frazier's car. Frazier's car was parked on the outside of the carport and there's no way she could have seen through the outer wall.

Nice one Gil, 👌

[Jake Hammond]

12 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

Jake, thank you; I do understand your point.

I'm just wondering, considering all the evidence that's surfaced over the past almost six decades, that it is highly probable that Oswald was, indeed, an undercover low-level intelligence operative and perhaps even a confidential FBI informant, would that not color the actions/demeanor that he displayed, leading up to the assassination and immediately, thereafter - and thus appear to make him seem guilty (of something) - even though he had no part, whatsoever, in the assassination or the Tippit shooting; even more so, if he been duped into participating beforehand into participating in a "false flag" operation, as some have suggested - and realizing he'd been double-crossed, began "scrambling" whilst in custody, to begin proving his innocence - which, I think, to some, could've made look even more guilty.

To me, it would seem that undercover operatives' behaviors, after they been outed, though not thought to be maybe much suspicious theretofore, would suddenly become quite suspect, considering the surreptitious nature of the tradecraft involved. 

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more, as I think I said in another comment -His actions don't really fit a Lone Nutter or a man with no knowledge of events. So using Ockhams razor maybe he was both ? I believe that minimum he was low level FBI but was certainly pushed into bigger things, perhaps without him even knowing. George de Mohrenschildt is all you need look at to know that, and his ( ' defection' ). It is also very true that his Homelife was a mess and in civvy street he was a failure. 

[David Von Pein]

56 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

David, do you (or anyone else) have a list or something of any other statements in FBI reports, DPD reports, WC testimony, etc. about what Oswald allegedly said in his interrogations about why he went out to Irving that day?

Yes. In Harry Holmes' report, we're treated to yet another lie told by Lee Oswald (which Oswald had to know was a big crock, because he knew the children's birthday party had been the previous weekend, not the weekend of Nov. 22):

"To an inquiry as to why he [LHO] went to visit his wife on Thursday night, November 21, whereas he normally visited her over the weekend, he stated that on this particular weekend he had learned that his wife and Mrs. Payne [sic] were giving a party for the children and that they were having a "houseful" of neighborhood children and that he just didn't want to be around at such a time. Therefore, he made his weekly visit on Thursday night." -- Harry D. Holmes; 12/17/63 Report

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0330a.htm

And more lies from Oswald are featured on page 4 of Holmes' report:

"When asked if he [Lee Oswald] didn't bring a sack with him the next morning to work, he stated that he did, and when asked as to the contents of the sack, he stated that it contained his lunch.

Then, when asked as to the size or shape of the sack, he said "Oh, I don't recall, it may have a small sack or a large sack, you don't always find one that just fits your sandwiches."

When asked as to where he placed the sack when he got in the car, he said in his lap, or possibly the front seat beside him, as he always did because he didn't want to get it crushed. He denied that he placed any package in the back seat.

When advised that the driver stated that he had brought out a long parcel and placed it in the back seat, he stated "Oh, he must be mistaken or else thinking about some other time when he picked me up."

When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes."

Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building." --H. Holmes

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0330b.htm

Plus, Thomas Kelley of the USSS also mentions in his written report the fact that Oswald denied that he had brought any large package to work on 11/22 and Kelley also heard Oswald deny the curtain rod story:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0325b.htm

So that makes a minimum of four people (Fritz, Bookhout, Holmes, and Kelley) who personally witnessed (and documented on paper) those two key LHO denials.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

 Tom, you are correct.

Recall, Oswald was allegedly under questioning for literally several hours on end.  And, this is crucial: he never had a lawyer.

And what do we have? About 24-25 pages of notes? 

Please.  Does anyone in their right mind think that any of those DPD, FBI, or Harry Holmes for that matter, were interested in being fair with Oswald?  If they did it was certainly unconsciously. I mean Fritz got him killed by breaking formation.

Yet the people on this board who want to grant those notes probative value are the same people who want to deny the meaning of Oswald shouting "I'm just a patsy!"

 

[James DiEugenio]

As per Jake Hammond:

From the time Oswald was in the Civil Air Patrol in New Orleans with Ferrie, he was preparing for his role in espionage for his government.  This is why he tried to lie about his age in order to join the Marines once. He then dropped out of school in order to do it successfully.  Even at this time he is writing letters to Socialist groups. Once in, he starts studying Russian.  When he leaves, Rosaleen Quinn, who had studied at Berlitz for over a year, said he spoke better Russian than she did.,

We know from the monumental discoveries of the HSCA's Betsy Wolf--which were not revealed until the new millenium--that the CIA carefully handled his file from the start.  Making sure that no 201 file would be opened, by sending it to the wrong department and issuing orders that it go nowhere else. And this was likely done by James Angleton.  But once he went over to the USSR, it was shown he was not well prepared to deceive the KGB. He got his lines wrong about the Rosenberg case. So they sent him out of Moscow and to Minsk. The KGB was so suspicious of  him they surrounded him with a ring of humint, and also electronic surveillance.  He knew this mission had failed.  Although he did submit a very nice schematic and description of the radio factory he worked in.  Meanwhile Otto Otepka is growing suspicious of him, so they finally open a 201, and the CIA calls him back.

The CIA station chief in Dallas, Walton Moore, gets the assignment to give Oswald a babysitter, the Baron.  And he surrounds the Oswalds with this White Russian community who somehow have no problem embracing two alleged commies--even though they want to bring back the Czar. While in Dallas, Oswald begins his leafleting chores.  And he writes the FPCC in New York in 1962 also.  At the same time, Bill Stuckey calls up the FBI office in New Orleans to see if there is any FPCC rep in the Crescent CIty.  This is in preparation for Oswald being part of the CIA/FBI anti FPCC crusade, led by Phillips, McCord and De Loach.  

Oswald reports to Banister's office and he gives him his own room to start mapping out and prepping for his role in their smearing of the FPCC.  Oswald does this in two phases: undercover leafleting at places like Tulane; and then the breakout version with the DRE "fight", court case--where Oswald pleads guilty to receiving a punch--and the interviews after with Stuckey, which one can make the case were in preparation since 1962.

As Jeff Morley vividly showed, it is these activities in New Orleans that are then  pumped into the MSM on the evening of the 22nd in order to incriminate Oswald and supply him with an imaginary motive to kill JFK--who he liked..  Those, along with his alleged visit to the Cuban and Russian consulates in Mexico CIty--which he did not do.. But the CIA will insist he did even though the pics and tapes do not match. Meanwhile the FBI will dutifully conceal any relationship Oswald had with Banister and Ferrie, and even remove hints of it from his flyers. (This last is really sorrowful to read.)

Needless to say, Oswald was a twofer--as a fall guy for the Kennedy case and in the destruction of the FPCC.  And Mr. Kent, who worked out of JM Wave, later  admitted it: "Oswald was a useful idiot."  

But I am sure that people like DVP will say: 'Oh he really did not mean it that way." 😀

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Jake Hammond]

16 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

As per Jake Hammond:

From the time Oswald was in the Civil Air Patrol in New Orleans with Ferrie, he was preparing for his role in espionage for his government.  This is why he tried to lie about his age in order to join the Marines once. He then dropped out of school in order to do it successfully.  Even at this time he is writing letters to Socialist groups. Once in, he starts studying Russian.  When he leaves, Rosaleen Quinn, who had studied at Berlitz for over a year, said he spoke better Russian than she did.,

We know from the monumental discoveries of the HSCA's Betsy Wolf--which were not revealed until the new millenium--that the CIA carefully handled his file from the start.  Making sure that no 201 file would be opened, by sending it to the wrong department and issuing orders that it go nowhere else. And this was likely done by James Angleton.  But once he went over to the USSR, it was shown he was not well prepared to deceive the KGB. He got his lines wrong about the Rosenberg case. So they sent him out of Moscow and to Minsk. The KGB was so suspicious of  him they surrounded him with a ring of humint, and also electronic surveillance.  He knew this mission had failed.  Although he did submit a very nice schematic and description of the radio factory he worked in.  Meanwhile Otto Otepka is growing suspicious of him, so they finally open a 201, and the CIA calls him back.

The CIA station chief in Dallas, Walton Moore, gets the assignment to give Oswald a babysitter, the Baron.  And he surrounds the Oswalds with this White Russian community who somehow have no problem embracing two alleged commies--even though they want to bring back the Czar. While in Dallas, Oswald begins his leafleting chores.  And he writes the FPCC in New York in 1962 also.  At the same time, Bill Stuckey calls up the FBI office in New Orleans to see if there is any FPCC rep in the Crescent CIty.  This is in preparation for Oswald being part of the CIA/FBI anti FPCC crusade, led by Phillips, McCord and De Loach.  

Oswald reports to Banister's office and he gives him his own room to start mapping out and prepping for his role in their smearing of the FPCC.  Oswald does this in two phases: undercover leafleting at places like Tulane; and then the breakout version with the DRE "fight", court case--where Oswald pleads guilty to receiving a punch--and the interviews after with Stuckey, which one can make the case were in preparation since 1962.

As Jeff Morley vividly showed, it is these activities in New Orleans that are then  pumped into the MSM on the evening of the 22nd in order to incriminate Oswald and supply him with an imaginary motive to kill JFK--who he liked..  Those, along with his alleged visit to the Cuban and Russian consulates in Mexico CIty--which he did not do.. But the CIA will insist he did even though the pics and tapes do not match. Meanwhile the FBI will dutifully conceal any relationship Oswald had with Banister and Ferrie, and even remove hints of it from his flyers. (This last is really sorrowful to read.)

Needless to say, Oswald was a twofer--as a fall guy for the Kennedy case and in the destruction of the FPCC.  And Mr. Kent, who worked out of JM Wave, later  admitted it: "Oswald was a useful idiot."  

But I am sure that people like DVP will say: 'Oh he really did not mean it that way." 😀

 

Thank you Jim, I try to keep up with your work on Black Ops but some of that is new to me and I'm sure others. 

[Guest]

"As discussed in chapters IV and V, Lee Harvey Oswald was interrogated for a total of approximately 12 hours between 2:30 p.m. on Friday, November 22, 1963, and 11:15 a.m. on Sunday, November 24, 1963."

How much of those 12 hrs is found in transcriptions ?

Are we only the use a minimalistic (cherry-picked) portion, and forget about all the rest ?

Hours and hours... IMO we simply do not know what he said.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve Roe]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

And just remember what he said about the lock on his car door, and his sister being able to see through the slats in the carport. I might add that if you follow his sister's story closely, you will see how the FBI got her to modify her words so her seeing Oswald would be at least plausible.

 

Earth to DiEugenio. Hello, anybody there? 

Linnie Randle saw your Patsy Boy Oswald walking with the package out her kitchen window before he entered the carport. 

Everyone knows there was a package placed in the back seat of Frazier's car, OK? 

[Jake Hammond]

32 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

"As discussed in chapters IV and V, Lee Harvey Oswald was interrogated for a total of approximately 12 hours between 2:30 p.m. on Friday, November 22, 1963, and 11:15 a.m. on Sunday, November 24, 1963."

How much of those 12 hrs is found in transcriptions ?

Are we only the use a minimalistic (cherry-picked) portion, and forget about all the rest ?

Hours and hours... IMO we simply do not know what he said.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As Fritz decided to keep ' hand written notes ' we may never know. By coincidence I'm just listening to John Armstrongs latest visit to black Op Radio and his presentation on how Ruby gained entry to the basement. He goes in to the Fritz notes and surmises the following....

 > Fritz didn't ask Oswald any questions about the tippet killing because he had become aware that Oswald was been framed for the Tippet killing. This may well have been because he had figured out that the second wallet that had turned up had to be a plant. It may well also have been for other similar reasons, or quiet words from superiors. 

> Fritz asking questions directly about the tippet killing would have of course garnered responses he may have been worried about Fbi or CIA agents hearing. Oswald may have started to claim he was been frames by DPD and start to prove why.

 > In keeping the number of people to a minimum and running the interogration off the record he, or his superiors, guaranteed Oswald's eternal silence. Anything could be made up and then turn up later, say 1997. The notes ( implying that Fritz made accurate records of Oswalds replies) would never be questioned and could never be verified.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Jake Hammond

[James DiEugenio]

1 hour ago, Jake Hammond said:

Thank you Jim, I try to keep up with your work on Black Ops but some of that is new to me and I'm sure others. 

Thanks Jake.