Basic facts that seem like conspiracy-killers to me

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Steve Roe said:

Earth to DiEugenio. Hello, anybody there? 

Linnie Randle saw your Patsy Boy Oswald walking with the package out her kitchen window before he entered the carport. 

Indeed she did. And that's something I mentioned to DiEugenio when we engaged in a debate on this very subject more than ten years ago.

Let's get into my Time Machine and have a gander at the very silly things Jim D. said back in 2012:

JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

More Blah blah blah from DVP.

You never answered my question, did you?

Wonder why?

As per [sic] throwing words back at me, isn't everyone a bit tired of this shopworn technique from a guy who is so imbalanced he cannot even understand what is on his own site? [DVP Interjection -- Huh? I can only shake my head and wonder why on Earth Jimmy made such a goofy utterance.]

Read the testimony DVP quotes by Randle.

Then go to WC VOL 2 p. 248 at History Matters.

Tell me if Linnie said this with [Joseph] Ball questioning her:

WC: Did you see him go to the car?

LMR: Yes.

WC: What did he do?

LMR: He opened the right back door and I just saw he was laying the package down. ...

Now go to CE 446 and CE 447 in the volumes. Then explain to me how LMR could see through two walls of a carport to Wesley's car which WAS PARKED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CARPORT! [Jimmy's wrong; there was only one wall, not two, between the kitchen door and Frazier's car.]

Davey, the chicken man, leaves that testimony out since it proves she was lying.

Now, in the real world--which you have little relation to--who would be disbarred, Davey?

What is so sick about you is that you know all this. I went through it before. But you never get tired of being exposed as a cheap flim flam man, do you?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Jimbo, once again, wants to pretend that the ONLY time Linnie Mae saw Oswald with a package was after she looked into the carport from her kitchen door. It's obvious that DiEugenio, in the quote below, wants people to believe that Randle NEVER saw LHO walking across the street:

"Linnie could not have seen Oswald with a bag that day, unless she had x-ray vision." -- Jim DiEugenio; October 3, 2012

And Jim also now wants to pretend that I have never addressed Linnie Mae's testimony regarding her supposed "X-ray vision" as she looked into the carport. But Jim knows (or should) that I have addressed that testimony. I wrote a post about that very subject more than three years ago, on October 21, 2009. And I even linked to that 2009 post (below) when I put together Part 79 of my DVP Vs. Jim D. series in October of this year:

WHAT COULD LINNIE MAE RANDLE HAVE SEEN FROM HER KITCHEN DOOR?

So, as we can see via the above post from back in 2009, I haven't left out anything. But James sure did when he said this in 2012:

"Linnie [Randle] could not have seen Oswald with a bag that day, unless she had x-ray vision."

The above quote is just a blatant misrepresentation of Linnie Randle's observations, because Randle saw Oswald as he CROSSED THE STREET heading to the Randle carport area. Was she lying about seeing LHO crossing the street too, Jim? And, of course, Jim needs to paint Wesley Frazier as a big fat L-word too, because Frazier has always said he saw Oswald with a package.

So who is really the flimflam man when it comes to the topic of Oswald's package? The answer is obvious, because James DiEugenio of Los Angeles will do and say ANYTHING to take that package (rifle) out of Oswald's hands. Anything at all. And Jimmy doesn't care how many people he has to call li@rs in order to accomplish his ludicrous "There Was No Package At All" goal.

--DVP; November 2012

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/11/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-80.html

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Tom Gram]

20 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Yes. In Harry Holmes' report. Last paragraph here:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0330a.htm

And more lies from Oswald are confirmed in page 4 of Holmes' report here (first section):

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0330b.htm

Plus, Thomas Kelley of the USSS also mentions in his written report the fact that Oswald denied that he had brought any large package to work on 11/22 and Kelley also heard Oswald deny the curtain rod story:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0325b.htm

So that makes a minimum of four people (Fritz, Bookhout, Holmes, and Kelley) who personally witnessed those two key LHO denials.

 

Thanks David, this is helpful. It looks like the 12/17/63 report of Harry Holmes is the only report on record that mentions what Oswald actually said about the trip out to Irving on the 21st. 

I’m not denying the curtain rod denial, I’m just curious about why there’s so little info on Oswald’s statements about getting a ride out to Irving on the 21st and back to work the next morning. If Oswald really said “Oh I don’t recall, it could’ve be a small sack or a large sack…” don’t you think that would be plastered all over the earlier interrogation reports as Oswald admitting to possibly carrying a large bag to work?

And why is Holmes’ belated report the only report to mention that Oswald’s explanation for going out to Irving was that there was going to be a party full of children that weekend? Wouldn’t the DPD have questioned Marina and Ruth Paine about that? Did they? It seems like this would be another great opportunity to paint Oswald as a li@r. 

Was anyone asked by the WC to corroborate Holmes’ alleged Oswald quotes? Fritz’s testimony is just bizarre and not even close to corroborative, Bookhout wasn’t even asked about it, and neither was Kelley. Do you know of any corroboration for Holmes’ statements about Frazier being mistaken, the kids party, the small or large sack, etc.?

I won’t get into Holmes’ credibility issues, but his 12/17/63 report is simply not credible as a sole source on this particular line of questioning. Fritz’s testimony in particular, which was in reference to the same Sunday interrogation, casts doubt on whether Frazier was even mentioned to Oswald at all. Kelley’s report suggests otherwise, but I don’t think this is really a settled issue. 

[Michaleen Kilroy]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Needless to say, Oswald was a twofer--as a fall guy for the Kennedy case and in the destruction of the FPCC.  And Mr. Kent, who worked out of JM Wave, later  admitted it: "Oswald was a useful idiot."  

Incredible summary, Jim. How anyone can look at all that and think ‘lone nut’ has to be a bit of a lone nut themselves

It appears LHO thought he was helping destroy the FPCC but then they used him for JFKA. The proverbial - and monumental - spy left out in the cold.

[David Von Pein]

19 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

And why is Holmes’ belated report the only report to mention that Oswald’s explanation for going out to Irving was that there was going to be a party full of children that weekend? Wouldn’t the DPD have questioned Marina and Ruth Paine about that? Did they? It seems like this would be another great opportunity to paint Oswald as a li@r. 

Ruth talks about the birthday party in her WC testimony, and she confirms the party was on Sat., Nov. 16, proving that Oswald lied when he said (within earshot of Harry Holmes) that the party occurred the weekend of the 22nd. (Go to nearly the bottom of this page....)

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/paine_r1.htm

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

21 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

Incredible summary, Jim. How anyone can look at all that and think ‘lone nut’ has to be a bit of a lone nut themselves

It appears LHO thought he was helping destroy the FPCC but then they used him for JFKA. The proverbial - and monumental - spy left out in the cold.

Thanks.  And that is what I think happened. 

Oswald thought he was on a mission to smear the FPCC, which he was.  But he did not know that that there was a hidden agenda behind what he was doing.

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Nice one Gil, 👌

I talked to Frazier about this. The outer wall was slats. You could see movement on the other side. If I recall she saw Oswald through a window and then followed his movements around the side by opening the door to the garage. She then saw him approach Frazier's car and heard the car door open. There's nothing mysterious about this. 

[James DiEugenio]

So she saw through two sets of slats Pat?

Plus her first story did not say that.

Also, there was that funny lock on the door.

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Yes. In Harry Holmes' report, we're treated to yet another lie told by Lee Oswald (which Oswald had to know was a big crock, because he knew the children's birthday party had been the previous weekend, not the weekend of Nov. 22):

"To an inquiry as to why he [LHO] went to visit his wife on Thursday night, November 21, whereas he normally visited her over the weekend, he stated that on this particular weekend he had learned that his wife and Mrs. Payne [sic] were giving a party for the children and that they were having a "houseful" of neighborhood children and that he just didn't want to be around at such a time. Therefore, he made his weekly visit on Thursday night." -- Harry D. Holmes; 12/17/63 Report

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0330a.htm

And more lies from Oswald are featured on page 4 of Holmes' report:

"When asked if he [Lee Oswald] didn't bring a sack with him the next morning to work, he stated that he did, and when asked as to the contents of the sack, he stated that it contained his lunch.

Then, when asked as to the size or shape of the sack, he said "Oh, I don't recall, it may have a small sack or a large sack, you don't always find one that just fits your sandwiches."

When asked as to where he placed the sack when he got in the car, he said in his lap, or possibly the front seat beside him, as he always did because he didn't want to get it crushed. He denied that he placed any package in the back seat.

When advised that the driver stated that he had brought out a long parcel and placed it in the back seat, he stated "Oh, he must be mistaken or else thinking about some other time when he picked me up."

When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes."

Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building." --H. Holmes

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0330b.htm

Plus, Thomas Kelley of the USSS also mentions in his written report the fact that Oswald denied that he had brought any large package to work on 11/22 and Kelley also heard Oswald deny the curtain rod story:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0325b.htm

So that makes a minimum of four people (Fritz, Bookhout, Holmes, and Kelley) who personally witnessed (and documented on paper) those two key LHO denials.

 

Geez. Holmes' report is almost worthless. He wrote it what? two weeks after the shooting, apparently from memory. Oswald said he didn't go the week before because of the birthday and Holmes thought he meant that he wasn't gonna go there on Friday because of the birthday. Obviously. 

Let's recall that this is the same guy who claimed that Oswald said he was upstairs at the time of the shooting. Bad memory or a bad xxxx. You take your pick. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Pat Speer

[David Von Pein]

12 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Geez. Holmes' report is almost worthless. He wrote it what? two weeks after the shooting, apparently from memory. Oswald said he didn't go the week before because of the birthday and Holmes thought he meant that was why he didn't wait till Friday. Obviously. 

It's possible you could be right on this. But it's certainly far from being "obvious". It's just as likely, IMO, that it occurred just as Holmes wrote it in his Dec. 17 report.

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

Randle said at first the car was pointed one way.  But then the FBI confronted her with a photo, probably the one GIl posted.  She changed her story and now said it was the other way. Hmm. 

And here is the point about the door lock. From ROKC:

And the answer will be compounded by Frazier's HSCA interview statement that Oswald only gained access to his locked car because one of the rear doors was broken.  But which one?  Or am I asking too many questions about a story that is just simply another big pile of you know what?  

(I edited the last three words so it would not get censored.
 

[Ron Bulman]

24 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I talked to Frazier about this. The outer wall was slats. You could see movement on the other side. If I recall she saw Oswald through a window and then followed his movements around the side by opening the door to the garage. She then saw him approach Frazier's car and heard the car door open. There's nothing mysterious about this. 

It was a carport Pat.  Look at the pic's Gil posted.  The thing is Linne Mae saw Oswald out the window walking past it.  She knew Wesley gave Oswald rides home on the weekends normally.  She most likely knew he had given him a ride the evening before, a good chance Wes had mentioned it as it was a Thursday as opposed to the normal Friday.  In any case she had most likely seen Lee before given Wes had given him rides before and she was involved in the conversations with Ruth, Marina, her and Mrs. ? leading to Lee getting the job at the TSBD.

So, looking out the kitchen window she saw Lee walking by towards Wes's car.  She was suspicious of him?  So, she walked from the window to the back of the kitchen and opened the door to the carport to observe him?  Why?

When she did so it would have been through the slat's seen in Gil's first picture, through which one could see movement but little else.  Note in the second picture Wes's car is backed in beside the carport.  Seeing Lee put something in the back seat using the passenger side would have required looking through not only the slats but the car itself.

I've seen these pictures before and still have trouble believing she would walk from the window to the back door to observe a man she knew rode from and to work with her brother on occasion.  If she did so, I also still have trouble believing she saw Oswald put anything in the back seat.  Much less that it fit between his arm pit and palm.

[Pat Speer]

25 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

It was a carport Pat.  Look at the pic's Gil posted.  The thing is Linne Mae saw Oswald out the window walking past it.  She knew Wesley gave Oswald rides home on the weekends normally.  She most likely knew he had given him a ride the evening before, a good chance Wes had mentioned it as it was a Thursday as opposed to the normal Friday.  In any case she had most likely seen Lee before given Wes had given him rides before and she was involved in the conversations with Ruth, Marina, her and Mrs. ? leading to Lee getting the job at the TSBD.

So, looking out the kitchen window she saw Lee walking by towards Wes's car.  She was suspicious of him?  So, she walked from the window to the back of the kitchen and opened the door to the carport to observe him?  Why?

When she did so it would have been through the slat's seen in Gil's first picture, through which one could see movement but little else.  Note in the second picture Wes's car is backed in beside the carport.  Seeing Lee put something in the back seat using the passenger side would have required looking through not only the slats but the car itself.

I've seen these pictures before and still have trouble believing she would walk from the window to the back door to observe a man she knew rode from and to work with her brother on occasion.  If she did so, I also still have trouble believing she saw Oswald put anything in the back seat.  Much less that it fit between his arm pit and palm.

Her statements about seeing him put the package in the car are pretty much beside the point. She said she saw him walking towards the house with it, and described the way he held it. She was then asked by the freakin' FBI to approximate the length of this package in comparison to the replacement bag. And she said it was much smaller. Months later, she was once again asked about this, and pressured by Joe Ball into saying the bag she saw was the size of the bag put into evidence. She once again claimed it was much too small. 

She got nothing out of this. Never tried to make money off it. Nothing. 

She was an honest camper, an extremely loyal sister, or both. I suspect both.  

Edited January 26, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

27 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

It was a carport Pat.  Look at the pic's Gil posted.  The thing is Linne Mae saw Oswald out the window walking past it.  She knew Wesley gave Oswald rides home on the weekends normally.  She most likely knew he had given him a ride the evening before, a good chance Wes had mentioned it as it was a Thursday as opposed to the normal Friday.  In any case she had most likely seen Lee before given Wes had given him rides before and she was involved in the conversations with Ruth, Marina, her and Mrs. ? leading to Lee getting the job at the TSBD.

So, looking out the kitchen window she saw Lee walking by towards Wes's car.  She was suspicious of him?  So, she walked from the window to the back of the kitchen and opened the door to the carport to observe him?  Why?

When she did so it would have been through the slat's seen in Gil's first picture, through which one could see movement but little else.  Note in the second picture Wes's car is backed in beside the carport.  Seeing Lee put something in the back seat using the passenger side would have required looking through not only the slats but the car itself.

I've seen these pictures before and still have trouble believing she would walk from the window to the back door to observe a man she knew rode from and to work with her brother on occasion.  If she did so, I also still have trouble believing she saw Oswald put anything in the back seat.  Much less that it fit between his arm pit and palm.

This doesn't surprise me in the least. Oswald was a weirdo. His wife was living with Ruth Paine. Ruth had undoubtedly told her things about Oswald--about his trip to Russia and possibly even that he beat Marina. And there he is walking up to he house with a package in his hand. Of course she watched him. 

Keep in mind that Oswald had only received a few rides from Frazier, and that, if memory serves, he normally got picked up outside the Paine's. This may have been the first time Linnie got a good look at Oswald, the brooding young man that her baby brother seemed so taken with...and the subject of so much gossip. 

[Ron Bulman]

5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

As per Jake Hammond:

From the time Oswald was in the Civil Air Patrol in New Orleans with Ferrie, he was preparing for his role in espionage for his government.  This is why he tried to lie about his age in order to join the Marines once. He then dropped out of school in order to do it successfully.  Even at this time he is writing letters to Socialist groups. Once in, he starts studying Russian.  When he leaves, Rosaleen Quinn, who had studied at Berlitz for over a year, said he spoke better Russian than she did.,

We know from the monumental discoveries of the HSCA's Betsy Wolf--which were not revealed until the new millenium--that the CIA carefully handled his file from the start.  Making sure that no 201 file would be opened, by sending it to the wrong department and issuing orders that it go nowhere else. And this was likely done by James Angleton.  But once he went over to the USSR, it was shown he was not well prepared to deceive the KGB. He got his lines wrong about the Rosenberg case. So they sent him out of Moscow and to Minsk. The KGB was so suspicious of  him they surrounded him with a ring of humint, and also electronic surveillance.  He knew this mission had failed.  Although he did submit a very nice schematic and description of the radio factory he worked in.  Meanwhile Otto Otepka is growing suspicious of him, so they finally open a 201, and the CIA calls him back.

The CIA station chief in Dallas, Walton Moore, gets the assignment to give Oswald a babysitter, the Baron.  And he surrounds the Oswalds with this White Russian community who somehow have no problem embracing two alleged commies--even though they want to bring back the Czar. While in Dallas, Oswald begins his leafleting chores.  And he writes the FPCC in New York in 1962 also.  At the same time, Bill Stuckey calls up the FBI office in New Orleans to see if there is any FPCC rep in the Crescent CIty.  This is in preparation for Oswald being part of the CIA/FBI anti FPCC crusade, led by Phillips, McCord and De Loach.  

Oswald reports to Banister's office and he gives him his own room to start mapping out and prepping for his role in their smearing of the FPCC.  Oswald does this in two phases: undercover leafleting at places like Tulane; and then the breakout version with the DRE "fight", court case--where Oswald pleads guilty to receiving a punch--and the interviews after with Stuckey, which one can make the case were in preparation since 1962.

As Jeff Morley vividly showed, it is these activities in New Orleans that are then  pumped into the MSM on the evening of the 22nd in order to incriminate Oswald and supply him with an imaginary motive to kill JFK--who he liked..  Those, along with his alleged visit to the Cuban and Russian consulates in Mexico CIty--which he did not do.. But the CIA will insist he did even though the pics and tapes do not match. Meanwhile the FBI will dutifully conceal any relationship Oswald had with Banister and Ferrie, and even remove hints of it from his flyers. (This last is really sorrowful to read.)

Needless to say, Oswald was a twofer--as a fall guy for the Kennedy case and in the destruction of the FPCC.  And Mr. Kent, who worked out of JM Wave, later  admitted it: "Oswald was a useful idiot."  

But I am sure that people like DVP will say: 'Oh he really did not mean it that way." 😀

 

Excellent synopsis Jim.

[Bob Ness]

5 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

"As discussed in chapters IV and V, Lee Harvey Oswald was interrogated for a total of approximately 12 hours between 2:30 p.m. on Friday, November 22, 1963, and 11:15 a.m. on Sunday, November 24, 1963."

How much of those 12 hrs is found in transcriptions ?

Are we only the use a minimalistic (cherry-picked) portion, and forget about all the rest ?

Hours and hours... IMO we simply do not know what he said.

 

I always like to roll out the idea that we should go through the recordings and transcripts of his testimony. What actually exists of course are notes of what Fritz, Kelley, Holmes etc recounted after they marched him into a firing squad. Pretty convenient.

Of course, the LNs consider this as LHO's words. I try to look at the JFKA as a jury member. That fact alone dismisses any charge against him,  IMO.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Bob Ness