Basic facts that seem like conspiracy-killers to me

[James DiEugenio]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Excellent synopsis Jim.

Thanks Ron.

[Benjamin Cole]

10 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

It's possible you could be right on this. But it's certainly far from being "obvious". It's just as likely, IMO, that it occurred just as Holmes wrote it in his Dec. 17 report.

 

Obviously, at this late date, it is impossible to determine what motivated Holmes. 

Holmes strikes me as a guy who happily fell into line on the official story on LHO, and did his part for the cause. In those days, you had to be in the anti-commie column, and  on the team. 

Holmes may have thought he was doing his part to calm the public and suppress the "confederates or conspiracy" angle, which he had been assured was false.  

If DA Henry Wade had run the show and sought conspirators, then Holmes might have gone along that show too. Remember, initially Wade said there were conspirators. 

After all of these decades, it is still simply dumbfounding that Holmes, nor anyone else, thought to record the LHO interviews. They must have all agreed it would be better not to have a recording. Why? 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Michael Griffith]

Another possibility is that Oswald was telling the truth when he said that the only bag he brought to work that day was a bag that contained his lunch, and that Frazier was mistakenly referring to another day. Marina said she recalled that Oswald left the house that morning with a bag containing his lunch. 

We should keep in mind, also, that Frazier said the bag that Oswald carried was a standard grocery bag. I find this interesting because for years I used standard brown grocery bags to carry my lunch to work. Yes, the bags were much bigger than my lunch, but they were free and handy, so I used them as a lunch bag. 

[Gerry Down]

20 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Another possibility is that Oswald was telling the truth when he said that the only bag he brought to work that day was a bag that contained his lunch, and that Frazier was mistakenly referring to another day. Marina said she recalled that Oswald left the house that morning with a bag containing his lunch. 

We should keep in mind, also, that Frazier said the bag that Oswald carried was a standard grocery bag. I find this interesting because for years I used standard brown grocery bags to carry my lunch to work. Yes, the bags were much bigger than my lunch, but they were free and handy, so I used them as a lunch bag. 

Could you fit curtain rods into those brown grocery bags?

If not then Fraziers testimony of the bags being grocery bags but were long enough to contain 27 inch length curtain rods makes no sense. 

[Jake Hammond]

Obtuse question ..... Do we tend to believe the accuracy and voracity of what he has said over the years because he is clearly a good guy and a just a nice old man . I know I do. 

[Michael Griffith]

21 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Why on Earth CTers still cling to this worn-out canard is another mystery. A "well-oiled" gun indicates that the INTERNAL PARTS are "well-oiled". Why would you think the OUTSIDE of the gun would necessarily have to be dripping with oil?

You ignore the fact that, according to the lone-gunman theory, the rifle was disassembled before being placed and carried in the bag. So, according to you, you have the several parts of the disassembled well-oiled rifle wrapped and carried in a bag for at least half an hour, yet not one speck of oil was found inside or outside the bag. Anyone who has any experience with guns knows this is an extremely far-fetched scenario.

I'm guessing you don't handle guns much, or else you'd know that after you oil a gun, some oil--not a lot, but some--will sometimes seep out to the gun's exterior, especially at/around the trigger, the magazine assembly, the bolt, and the ejection port. Plus, when you oil a rifle, you often get some oil on the rifle's exterior. In the Army, I learned early on that I needed to wipe off my rifle after I oiled it because in most cases at least a little bit of oil got onto the exterior. Thus, I find it odd that not one trace of oil was found on/in the blanket in which the rifle was supposedly stored for months. 

We both know that if gun oil had been found on the bag and on the blanket, you would be citing this as evidence that the rifle was carried in the bag and stored in the blanket. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Gerry Down]

7 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Thus, I find it odd that not one trace of oil was found on/in the blanket in which the rifle was supposedly stored for months. 

We both know that if gun oil had been found on the bag and on the blanket, you would be citing this as evidence that the rifle was carried in the bag and stored in the blanket. 

I didn't realize they tested the blanket too for gun oil. 

[Charles Blackmon]

What was Oswald doing talking about anything at these interrogations without benefit of legal counsel? He seemed like a smart guy but this..not so smart.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

David, do you (or anyone else) have a list or something of any other statements in FBI reports, DPD reports, WC testimony, etc. about what Oswald allegedly said in his interrogations about why he went out to Irving that day? The quotes you provided are the only time this is mentioned in the entire WC list of interrogation reports: 

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/app11.htm

Fritz’s and Bookhout’s reports suggest that Oswald was asked if he told Frazier why he went out to Irving on a Thursday, and if he’d said anything about obtaining curtain rods. However, it is not clear at all what Oswald actually did say about why he went out to Irving - or the drive back to work in the morning. 

Is it not a little odd that there is no discussion whatsoever in Oswald’s interrogation reports about Frazier giving him a ride, what the real purpose was of his trip to Irving, or his trip to work and walk into the TSBD? You’d think that the DPD etc. would have said something like: “we have a witness, this boy Frazier, who claims he drove you to Irving and back, saw you with a long package, etc.” Did Oswald claim that Frazier was making it all up? Was Oswald ever asked how he got out to Irving and back to work?

Fritz’s testimony on this whole thing doesn’t exactly inspire confidence: 

Mr. FRITZ. He said he asked him what it was and he told him it was curtain rods. 
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. 
Mr. BALL. When? 
Mr. FRITZ. I talked to him about that on the last morning before his transfer. 
Mr. BALL. That was on Sunday morning? 
Mr. FRITZ. Sunday morning, that would be the 24th, wouldn't it? 
Mr. BALL. Yes. 
Mr. FRITZ. And I asked him about that and he denied having anything to do with any curtain rods. It is possible that I could have asked him that on one of those other times, too, but I know I asked him that question the last morning. 
Mr. BALL. Well, you learned about it on Friday night according to your reports here when Mr. Frazier came in and you gave Frazier a polygraph test. 
Mr. FRITZ. I hesitated to ask him about those curtain rods and I will tell you why I hesitated, because I wanted to find out more about that package before I got started with the curtain rods because if there were curtain rods I didn't want to mention it to him but we couldn't find--I talked to his wife and asked her if they were going to use any curtain rods, while I was talking to her that afternoon and she didn't know anything about it.
No; I believe I talked to Mrs. Paine, one of them. 
Mr. BALL. Do you think you talked to Oswald before Sunday morning about curtain rods? 
Mr. FRITZ. It is possible but I know I talked to him Sunday morning. 
Mr. BALL. Now, did you tell him what Frazier had told you? 
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know that I told him what Frazier had told me but I told him someone had told me. 
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? 
Mr. FRITZ. I told him he had a package and put it in the back seat and it was a package about that long and it was curtain rods. He said he didn't have any kind of a package but his lunch. He said he had his lunch and that is all he had, and Mr. Frazier told me that he got out of the car with that package, he saw him go toward the building with this long package.
I asked him, I said, "Did you go toward the building carrying a long package?"
He said, "No. I didn't carry anything but my lunch." 

Umm, how can Oswald deny that he said something to Frazier if he was never asked about Frazier? Also note that Fritz says nothing about asking Oswald about the trip to Irving on Thursday night. 

I flipped through Bookhout’s testimony and it looks like the curtain rod issue isn’t even mentioned. 

So yeah, I’m not convinced that we’re getting the full story here, at all. 

There is a lot wrong with the Holmes-report... some people even call it a "transcript" ?!?

Holmes' report is only an informal memo written weeks late... (at that time he knew things he did not know during the investigation, so....).

By no standards can that be taken as an actual representation of what has been said during the interrogation (I only call it "an interrogation" because I assume Fritz was present..., otherwise it was just a conversation, there is a legal difference).

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Michael Griffith]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

I didn't realize they tested the blanket too for gun oil. 

Cadigan testified that he examined the bag with a magnifying glass specifically looking for traces of gun oil, so one would assume that he did the same with the blanket. Cadigan said he found no physical evidence on the blanket that linked it to the rifle, so one would logically assume that Cadigan, or someone else in the lab, checked the blanket for oil traces, given that the rifle had supposedly been stored in the blanket for months. If they checked the bag for oil traces, surely they also checked the blanket for such traces.

[Guest]

This video shows the blanket (and some other interesting things from the case like the sniper's nest boxes, LHO's address book, etccccccccc) :

https://www.c-span.org/video/?321541-1/discussion-kennedy-assassination-records

PS : this (2014) film is probably available on other websites as well, the one on c-span was just the first I found.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Gerry Down]

Was the 

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

Cadigan testified that he examined the bag with a magnifying glass specifically looking for traces of gun oil, so one would assume that he did the same with the blanket. Cadigan said he found no physical evidence on the blanket that linked it to the rifle, so one would logically assume that Cadigan, or someone else in the lab, checked the blanket for oil traces, given that the rifle had supposedly been stored in the blanket for months. If they checked the bag for oil traces, surely they also checked the blanket for such traces.

Do you know if the rifle was in it's assembled or disassembled state while it was being stored in the blanket?

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Another possibility is that Oswald was telling the truth when he said that the only bag he brought to work that day was a bag that contained his lunch, and that Frazier was mistakenly referring to another day. Marina said she recalled that Oswald left the house that morning with a bag containing his lunch. 

We should keep in mind, also, that Frazier said the bag that Oswald carried was a standard grocery bag. I find this interesting because for years I used standard brown grocery bags to carry my lunch to work. Yes, the bags were much bigger than my lunch, but they were free and handy, so I used them as a lunch bag. 

I'm drawing a blank as to when Marina saw Lee leave. My recollection is that she said she woke up when he got up but then went back to sleep. Can you point us to where she said she saw him with a bag? 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I'm drawing a blank as to when Marina saw Lee leave. My recollection is that she said she woke up when he got up but then went back to sleep. Can you point us to where she said she saw him with a bag? 

I believe she didn't come out of bed in first.  By the time she got up Lee was already gone (and I think she said someting about the coffee can being cold). 

It could be there was some confusion, as "normally" when he left for work from the Paine's house he would take lunch with him.   But not on that day (well... as it seems, because Wesley also said something about that - asking Lee where his luchbag was, Lee saying he was going to get something from the food-truck).

 

[Michael Griffith]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I'm drawing a blank as to when Marina saw Lee leave. My recollection is that she said she woke up when he got up but then went back to sleep. Can you point us to where she said she saw him with a bag? 

Mr Rankin :

Do you know whether your husband carried any package with him when he left the house on November 22nd?

Mrs Oswald :

I think that he had a package with his lunch. But a small package. (1 H 73)