Basic facts that seem like conspiracy-killers to me

[James DiEugenio]

In this day and age, after the monumental discoveries of Betsy Wolf, to still be arguing that Oswald was not some kind of intel asset, to me that is just either plain ignorance, or just deliberate obtuseness.

And man, how else do you explain the attempted call to North Carolina?

Its dishonest to avoid those issues.

[Gil Jesus]

22 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Three separate experts identified Oswald's fingerprint and palm print on the bag in a manner consistent with him carrying a heavy object in the manner described by Frazier, but the endlessly spiraling conspiracy can surely account for that.

The evidence indicates that Oswald's prints were of the index finger of the left hand on one end of the bag and the heel of the right hand on the other end. ( 4 H 5, Ibid. pg. 7 )

Wesley Frazier described him as carrying it tucked under his armpit with it cradled in the palm of his hand. ( 2 H 228 )

This is how the "fingerprint" evidence on the bag shows Oswald was carrying it, compared to how Frazier said he was carrying it :

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/gil_rifle.mp4

As anyone can see, it was IMPOSSIBLE for Oswald to have carried the broken down 34 or 35" rifle in the manner Frazier described.

So either Frazier was wrong about how Oswald carried the package, or the package Oswald carried contained something smaller than the rifle.

For Oswald to have carried the package in the manner the prints indicate, he could not have gotten it into the building without anyone else seeing it.

And the presence of those prints is inconsistent with prints being made by carrying the bag. No one carries a rifle like that.

No one.

If those were Oswald's prints on the bag, they weren't on there as a result of his carrying the bag. My guess is that they got on there when he was presented with the bag during his interrogation. The police slid the bag across the table, Oswald stopped it with the heel of his left hand and slid it back across the table with the index finger of his right hand.

That's just a guess, but it makes a helluva lot more sense than the conflict between what the witnesses said and what the evidence is.

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Steve Roe]

16 hours ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

So your interpretation is right because it’s yours?

His communist credentials - living in Russia, FPCC — are exactly the reason the American public bought the official story at least for a time.  He was the communist fanatic they were always told about who wanted to destroy America come to life.

Scared the hell outta the govt though because of the potential for war and exposing the worst of our global interventions.

From the conspiratorial POV (which btw is shared by 60+% of the country) he was the perfect patsy for the intel people who knew so much about him and wanted Kennedy dead.

That's nice. You know you might want to consider writing an article for DiEugenio's Kennedy and Kings website. He welcomes all conspiracy theories and beliefs, all flavors. Think about it. 

[Steve Roe]

16 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

This is what I do not get and I have complained about often.  Why do lawyers who understand what legal procedure is and what the rules of testimony and evidence are, somehow forget all of that in the JFK case?  Why is it tossed out the window?

This comment by Mr. DiEugenio is very entertaining. Mr. DiEugenio believes and proclaims that the rifle, the bag and other evidence would be not admissible in the hypothetical Oswald criminal trial. He cites chain of custody issues. 

First of all, there is no chain of custody issue with the rifle and the bag. It's all in Mr. DiEugenio's imagination. Why? 

The rifle is evidence, period. It was found hidden on the 6th floor on the opposite corner where the 6.5 mm shell casings were discovered. That establishes the first chain of custody. The rifle and the bag were taken to the DPD crime lab and eventually turned over to the FBI to examine. No criminal trial judge would rule the rifle as inadmissible evidence. 

Next Mr. DiEugenio takes issue with the Rifle bag because it was not photographed by J.C. Day or Studebaker of the DPD crime search team. Wow! Mr. DiEugenio's extremely poor understanding of admissible evidence is staggering. There were LEO's who saw the bag, and the bag was brought out in front of the TSBD recorded by numerous press photos. All the prosecution had to do was call those that saw the bag lying in Oswald's sniper nest as witnesses and testify to the jury. Do you understand this Mr. DiEugenio?

Next, the rifle was ordered using the fake Hidell alias, to Oswald's P.O. Box. What Mr. DiEugenio also ignores was Oswald was captured with the fake Hidell ID on him with his picture on it. What trial judge would rule that inadmissible? Seriously Mr. DiEugenio? 

There is no chain of custody issues with the evidence found on the 6th floor of the TSBD. Just ask any practicing prosecuting criminal trial lawyer Mr. DiEugenio if you don't believe me. (DiEugenio reads these messages on his Iphone, feigning the Ignore when logged in).

Now Mr. DiEugenio invokes the first-generation WC critic, Harold Weisberg. What Mr. DiEugenio does not disclose to everyone here is how Weisberg eviscerated his pal, Oliver Stone on the fictious JFK movie. 

You can read Weisberg's letters to Ollie here:

ww.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/harold-weisberg-writes-oliver-stone

One of Weiberg's most memorable quotes to Stone is this:

"You are (Stone), as I warned you a Mack Sennet producing a Keystone Kops with a Pink Panther star making a Mardi Gras of one of the greatest of our national tragedies." Harold Weisberg. 

If Harold Weisberg had lived to see the Stone Destiny Betrayed film, I'm confident that he would also rip him to shreds once again with all the debunkable nonsense presented. 

 

[Charles Blackmon]

1 hour ago, Steve Roe said:

 

If Harold Weisberg had lived to see the Stone Destiny Betrayed film, I'm confident that he would also rip him to shreds once again with all the debunkable nonsense presented. 

 

Sounds like yet another straw man argument, of which there seems to be no shortage.

[Guest]

On 1/21/2023 at 5:56 PM, James DiEugenio said:

In this day and age, after the monumental discoveries of Betsy Wolf, to still be arguing that Oswald was not some kind of intel asset, to me that is just either plain ignorance, or just deliberate obtuseness.

And man, how else do you explain the attempted call to North Carolina?

Its dishonest to avoid those issues.

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Ron Ege]

 

1 hour ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Sounds like yet another straw man argument, of which there seems to be no shortage.

Charles, thank you.

Don't know if Mr. Davis Josephs originated it - but I like it:

"You ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know."

Thank you, David.

And Mr. DiEugenio mentioned earlier in the thread the overwhelming evidence that Oswald was obviously some type of intel asset.

Is there any agreement from the NCBr aka LNr (I don't particularly like that term) side that Oswald WAS an intel asset?

 

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Ron.

Here is probably the best summary of the North Carolina call.

When Robert Blakey says something is deeply disturbing, then it likely is.

http://www.groverproctor.us/jfk/jfk80.html

In Proctor's fine article, it appears that after the SS rejected the call, they were looking for the subject.  And man, did the Hurts scramble around doing all they could to avoid being the subject of it.  That excuse they gave Henry Hurt is a doozy.

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Steve Roe]

2 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Thanks Ron.

Here is probably the best summary of the North Carolina call.

When Robert Blakey says something is deeply disturbing, then it likely is.

http://www.groverproctor.us/jfk/jfk80.html

 

Not that old stuff again. I know you or your followers will not trust Lance or my explanation. So why don't you ask your conspiracy friend Bart Kamp, he debunked it.

The Alleged Raleigh Call @ Prayer Man (prayer-man.com)

Also, it was the recently departed David Lifton that called Mr. Hurt and he admitted he made the call to the Dallas Jail, and he was drunk. 

[Tom Gram]

39 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

 

"You ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know."

It’s a Grateful Dead lyric. Not sure if that’s where David got it though. 

http://artsites.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/btwi.html

[James DiEugenio]

I have Roe on ignore, but when he quotes me I have to read his well, whatever you want to call it, maybe he calls it writing.

1. Bart misses the point of what Proctor is saying, and anyone can figure that out just by carefully reading the two articles. Or Grover's reply to Bart.

2. The Lifton thesis is similar to the Henry Hurt one which Grover deals with in his article.

Do you ever read any of this stuff or do you, like Payette,  just throw it up on the wall, in order to get so much mud up there in hopes of alienating everyone?

The significance of the call, as Blakey said, is that it was outgoing.  That gives it  gravity for what are obvious reasons to everyone, except maybe you and the Arizona drug advisor.

As for the "old stuff" comment, Betsy Wolf is not "old stuff".

BTW, note how the supposed "conspiracy killing" thesis got blown to bits?

Edited January 22, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Charles Blackmon]

36 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

 

Also, it was the recently departed David Lifton that called Mr. Hurt and he admitted he made the call to the Dallas Jail, and he was drunk. 

What is the source for this? I have never heard of it in any Lifton postings.

Blakey was convinced the call was made outgoing to Raleigh, and he was no fool. 

[Guest]

On 1/22/2023 at 12:16 PM, Steve Roe said:

Not that old stuff again. I know you or your followers will not trust Lance or my explanation. So why don't you ask your conspiracy friend Bart Kamp, he debunked it.

The Alleged Raleigh Call @ Prayer Man (prayer-man.com)

Also, it was the recently departed David Lifton that called Mr. Hurt and he admitted he made the call to the Dallas Jail, and he was drunk. 

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Charles Blackmon]

Somebody buzz me when the discussion returns to the JFK assassination.

[James DiEugenio]

It probably won't  Charles.

Troy West and GIl, among others, blew up the Arizona drug advisor's "conspiracy killer" malarkey.