Basic facts that seem like conspiracy-killers to me

[Guest]

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

On 1/20/2023 at 2:54 AM, Joseph McBride said:

Oswald didn't own a gun.

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Michael Griffith]

4 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Discerning lurkers (are there any?) will note that not one respondent has attempted to address this conundrum. Instead, CTers go directly to "those aren't the basic facts" because because because.

IOW, if anyone challenges your assumptions, they are ducking the conundrum that you claim exists. If anyone argues that your alleged basic facts are not actually facts, they are merely avoiding your point. Such posturing only reveals your strong bias and failure to follow critical thinking principles.

Do you know who Jesse Curry was? He was the chief of the Dallas Police Department at the time of the assassination. Do you know what he said in 1969 about the evidence against Oswald? Let's take a look:

"We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle, and never did. Nobody's yet been able to put him in that building with a gun in his hand." (Dallas Morning News, 6 Nov 1969, https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Rewriting_History_-_Bugliosi_Parses_the_Testimony.html)

Why do you suppose Chief Curry said that? Certainly nobody would accuse Curry of having been a conspiracy theorist. But, his statement suggests that he was aware of at least some of the gaping holes in the case against Oswald.

Over and over again in this thread, you have declined to explain evidence that Oswald was framed and/or that there was a conspiracy, even going so far as to admit that you "don't really care" about such a crucial piece of evidence as the paper bag in which the alleged murder weapon was supposedly wrapped and carried into the building. You posture as though anyone who presents facts that challenge your assumptions is being irrational and evasive, even though you seem unable to explain those facts.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Charles Blackmon]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

 

My point was simply that the basic facts of what occurred as set forth in my original post are, I believe, impossible to square with any plausible conspiracy - but very easy to square with "Oswald did it."

 

Yes but what you refer to as "basic facts" such as LHO sneaking the Carcano out of the garage that Thursday night are really only unsupported presumptions. You call them facts because The WR treated them as facts.

[Chuck Schwartz]

Yes, Charles, and  the purpose of the Warren Commission was to prove LHO was the lone assassin,not to determine who killed JFK.  It was set up to tell the American people that a  lonne assassin nut killed JFK and not to ask questions.  Everybody was to go back to their jobs and move on.  Nothing to see here. 

[Tom Gram]

Greg Parker posted a lengthy reply to this thread on ROKC.

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2679-sorry-lance-but-you-re-getting-another-dose-just-because#41237

For those not familiar with the bits about Frazier and the Randles, the lead on Bill Randle came from a couple diligent Irving Postal Inspectors who interviewed the neighbors on Nov. 22nd. 

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/dallas-texas-witnesses-police-district-attorney-and-postal-inspectors-harry-holmes/705263?item=705295

The part about TSBD employment might look like there was just a mix-up with Buell, but there’s reason to suspect there’s more to it than that. The Secret Service took the lead on Bill Randle very seriously - long after it was officially established that Buell was the driver. They investigated Bill as an Oswald associate and were still reporting that Bill took Oswald to work through at least November 26th, and included that detail in their official personal history report on Oswald. 

Randle’s whereabouts and actions on the day of the assassination are completely unaccounted for until 7pm, when a motel manager reported him to the FBI in Austin after overhearing him say he knew Oswald personally and had heard rumors that JFK would be assassinated if he came to Dallas. Bill denied everything. 

There’s a lot more to this angle - discussed in detail in the following thread. Pretty interesting stuff, IMO, that makes you wonder if some of the “basic facts” of the case are really facts at all:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1456-buell-wesley-frazier-wheres-your-rider-part-a

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

FWIW, here is a real-time video showing the disassembly of an M38 Carcano in less than three minutes, and the guy isn't trying to demonstrate anything except how to disassemble a Carcano. A gun that had been disassembled several times would be even less stubborn than this one.

 

1. Assembly would be more difficult and take more time.

2. He is using a screwdriver, and not a dime as proposed by the FBI and WC.

3. There is no scope. One of the many thing Ian Griggs proved was that you couldn't keep the scope on the barrel during assembly and disassembly, and that it would have to be added and removed separately. This proved that the WC photo showing the disassembled rifle with an intact scope on the barrel was a deception, to say the least. 

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Discerning lurkers (are there any?), I give you Exhibit A. In Conspiracy World, folks who posit themselves as serious researchers actually say things like this.

As I said in my original post, if you're off in the ozone of Oswald never owning the Carcano or conspirators sneaking it out of Ruth's garage, we have nothing to talk about.

My point was simply that the basic facts of what occurred as set forth in my original post are, I believe, impossible to square with any plausible conspiracy - but very easy to square with "Oswald did it."

Discerning lurkers (are there any?) will note that not one respondent has attempted to address this conundrum. Instead, CTers go directly to "those aren't the basic facts" because because because.

The paper bag! Frazier and Randle! The ammunition! Mexico City! Autopsy photos!

Given the basic facts, and the utter implausibility of efforts to explain them away (OSWALD NEVER OWNED A GUN????), I'll be honest: I don't really care about the paper bag.

So Oswald is guilty because you refuse to consider otherwise? That is, a rifle was found that is presumed to have been his rifle, and he therefore was the shooter, even though there is little to no evidence he brought this rifle to work, and there is questionable at best evidence he actually fired the shots?

I mean, let's get real. The evidence is far clearer that members of the DPD fabricated or lied about evidence than that Oswald actually fired the shots. And yet that fact should have no impact on our presumption of his guilt? 

Got it. I'm glad you never made judge. 

[Guest]

On 1/20/2023 at 10:48 AM, Pat Speer said:

1. Assembly would be more difficult and take more time.

2. He is using a screwdriver, and not a dime as proposed by the FBI and WC.

3. There is no scope. One of the many thing Ian Griggs proved was that you couldn't keep the scope on the barrel during assembly and disassembly, and that it would have to be added and removed separately. This proved that the WC photo showing the disassembled rifle with an intact scope on the barrel was a deception, to say the least. 

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Charles Blackmon]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

Greg Parker posted a lengthy reply to this thread on ROKC.

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2679-sorry-lance-but-you-re-getting-another-dose-just-because#41237

For those not familiar with the bits about Frazier and the Randles, the lead on Bill Randle came from a couple diligent Irving Postal Inspectors who interviewed the neighbors on Nov. 22nd. 

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/dallas-texas-witnesses-police-district-attorney-and-postal-inspectors-harry-holmes/705263?item=705295

The part about TSBD employment might look like there was just a mix-up with Buell, but there’s reason to suspect there’s more to it than that. The Secret Service took the lead on Bill Randle very seriously - long after it was officially established that Buell was the driver. They investigated Bill as an Oswald associate and were still reporting that Bill took Oswald to work through at least November 26th, and included that detail in their official personal history report on Oswald. 

Randle’s whereabouts and actions on the day of the assassination are completely unaccounted for until 7pm, when a motel manager reported him to the FBI in Austin after overhearing him say he knew Oswald personally and had heard rumors that JFK would be assassinated if he came to Dallas. Bill denied everything. 

There’s a lot more to this angle - discussed in detail in the following thread. Pretty interesting stuff, IMO, that makes you wonder if some of the “basic facts” of the case are really facts at all:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1456-buell-wesley-frazier-wheres-your-rider-part-a

Wow Greg thanks for adding more pieces to the puzzle. Good job!

[Guest]

On 1/20/2023 at 11:22 AM, Charles Blackmon said:

Wow Greg thanks for adding more pieces to the puzzle. Good job!

Bye

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Joe Bauer]

Did Ruth Paine ever state that the type of paper Oswald allegedly wrapped the rifle in was something she had or could have had in her garage and home anytime before the evening of 11,21,1963?

Otherwise, Oswald must have brought the paper into Ruth's home?

Possibly concealing it folded up inside of his jacket while riding with Frazier to Ruth's home on Thursday afternoon?

Did the DPD or FBI ever establish the provenance of the paper type? And the tape type ( if used ) as well?

Was it a kind used at the Texas School Depository for any reason? Was it from a store of some type that Oswald may have done any business with? Seems like it would not be difficult to establish where that exact kind of paper could be found and where it was manufactured, no?

Was the paper package Oswald carried to Frazier's car and then into the back of the TXSBD building held together just by folding it into itself, or was there tape used in doing so?

Again, if it was taped, did Ruth Paine state the tape was hers? 

Was the paper cut in anyway? Did Ruth Paine have scissors handy that Oswald could have used to cut the paper?

Oswald simply left the gun wrapping paper next to his perch after unwrapping it?

He didn't think of disposing this evidence in anyway?

Like rolling it up into a ball and putting this into a building trash can or tossing it out of another opposite side sixth floor window?

If Oswald did the shooting I have pondered something that puts Oswald into a different category than most everyone including myself has had a hard time accepting.

That underneath his calm public demeanor...he was a psychopathic killer time bomb.

A man so full of murderous rage that blowing JFK's head apart just inches from his wife's face didn't faze him.

That blasting Tippit with "over-kill" shots including a coup de grace one in the head also didn't faze him.

A man so disturbed in this way...that he couldn't conceptualize the reality and understanding that committing these acts would be the most self-destroying ( and his two baby family destroying ) ones imaginable? Totally suicidal.

The kind of actions people do to die ( suicide by cops) when they want to destroy themselves but just can't turn the gun on themselves.

Or, something you could imagine a "Manchurian Candidate" might do?

Unconscious brainwashed order following? With perhaps a code word message used to begin the killing?

Like "Lee...time to listen to your mother." ?

Also, if Lee thought that doing the shooting would be his ticket into Cuba...well, again, that is hard to believe.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Steve Roe]

26 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

Yes, "more pieces to the puzzle" is pretty much the Conspiracy Game.

Incredible isn't it - no, maybe it's not - that not only poor old Ruth Paine but Michael, Linnie Mae Randle and even her husband Bill were involved in the conspiracy? I can scarcely think of a less-likely quartet of participants, but that's just how clever the conspirators were. Toss in CIA operative Roy Truly and you have a royal flush of unlikely conspirators.

This is one comical problem with Conspiracy World. Literally NOTHING - from Oswald’s school days ... to his defection to the USSR ... to his return to the U.S. ... to his purchase of the rifle ... to the Walker incident ... to his employment at the TSBD ... to his assassination of JFK ... to his escape ... to the Tippit killing and his arrest ... to Ruby's murder of him - is as it seems on its face. NOTHING the FBI, DPD, Postal Service or Bethesda autopsy team did was as it seems. Indeed, NOTHING about ANY aspect of the assassination was as it seems.

Literally EVERYTHING at EVERY stage is riddled with clues to a vast conspiracy in which misguided young punk Oswald emerges as the Most Mysterious Man Who Ever Lived. And, as I have said repeatedly, the Dark Forces responsible for this fantastically complex conspiracy conveniently happen to have been diabolical geniuses when the conspiracy demands them to have been but also fumbling fools who left umpteen screaming “clues” for CTers to drool over for decades.

The fact CTers never seem to see the absurdity and humor in all this only underscores that there is indeed a conspiracy-prone psychological type for whom this pretty obvious nonsense is Grim Truth.

I guess people like me just lack the conspiracy gene and are doomed to live in the real world. But, hey, dream on if it scratches your conspiracy itch.

Did the Randles have any children? What were they up to on November 21 and 22, anyway? I don't care if they were toddlers, they are potential pieces of the puzzle.

Lance, how many conspirators, handlers, cover-up artists, brain snatchers, document fakers, mobile photo alteration labs, and patsy framers are we up to now? I lost count at 100+. Poor ole Lee, he never had a chance, they were all gunning for him. I bet somewhere they held a big pre-assassination meeting to coordinate all these moving parts. 

And speaking of "coincidence theorists" (John Judge), funny how Oswald was captured with the fake Hidell ID, with his picture on it, and the rifle, revolver were ordered with the same name.  Talk about coincidence! 

 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

OK, no more please. We have reached the stage of absurdity. I quote from Ian Griggs's article "The Mannlicher Carcano - A Practical Experiment In Its Reassembly." Read it and weep.

• "The small change in Oswald's possession when he was arrested consisted of one half dollar, three dimes, one nickle and two pennies. It was therefore possible that one of Oswald's dime coins could have been used as a temporary breakdown tool for the Mannlicher-Carcano."
   
• A Special Agent at the FBI Firearms Laboratory "said he had been able to reassemble the Mannlicher (CE 139) in 'a few seconds over two minutes' using a screwdriver and six minutes using a dime."
   
• "IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO REMOVE THE SCOPE WHEN DISASSEMBLING THE WEAPON."
   
• "How long did it take me [with admittedly little firearms experience] to reassemble the Mannlicher-Carcano? Well, my best time was two minutes and four seconds using a screwdriver. I have to confess that I admitted defeat using a dime."

Nice dodge, Lance. You highlight stuff and delete stuff to make it seem like Griggs, a retired policeman, believed Oswald re-assembled the rifle as proposed. Well, the fact is that he made it his mission to debunk this nonsense. Your first point is irrelevant. No one disputed that someone could--potentially--use a dime as a screwdriver. Your second point is also problematic. The FBI Firearms Laboratory, namely, Cunningham, said he reassembled the rifle using a dime in six minutes. But he failed to test fire the rifle after doing so, when he KNEW that was the whole point of the exercise, and KNEW such a test would have been problematic to the single-assassin solution. He also fudged his testimony re the paraffin tests of Oswald's cheek, and said he personally would not expect gsr to appear on the cheek of someone who'd fired a rifle, when he KNEW damn well--because his partner Frazier had been the test firer--that the FBI had secretly performed tests that had proved the reverse was true--that there was plentiful gsr on the cheeks of someone firing that rifle. As to your third point, it appears I was incorrect in that Griggs, someone I knew and exchanged emails with, said it wasn't necessary to remove the scope when disassembling a weapon. But who cares? The point is that Oswald would have needed to assemble those pieces as well, and that the video you presented failed to show this. Griggs made a big deal of this, btw, in his book and presentations--that the WC photo showing the intact scope on the barrel and the barrel beside the stock was a hoax, in that it suggested one could just put the barrel onto the stock without much work. 

Now, point four. Here, you admit that Griggs admitted defeat using a dime. He said he made numerous tries and received blisters on his fingers for his efforts, and gave up. So this undermines the whole dime proposal, and raises questions about Cunningham's testimony. So...please rustle up a video in which someone assembles the rifle--with a scope--while using a dime. Let's see how long that would take. 

[Pat Speer]

15 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Lance, how many conspirators, handlers, cover-up artists, brain snatchers, document fakers, mobile photo alteration labs, and patsy framers are we up to now? I lost count at 100+. Poor ole Lee, he never had a chance, they were all gunning for him. I bet somewhere they held a big pre-assassination meeting to coordinate all these moving parts. 

And speaking of "coincidence theorists" (John Judge), funny how Oswald was captured with the fake Hidell ID, with his picture on it, and the rifle, revolver were ordered with the same name.  Talk about coincidence! 

 

I agree that would be a heckuva coincidence, unless someone knew his fake name and made that happen. But even that stretches things a bit, IMO. It makes sense to me that that rifle was used because it was Oswald's rifle. IOW, I agree with you and Lance et al that it's likely the weapon was the weapon he'd ordered. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Pat Speer