Moments Leading to Oswald's Deserved Death

[David Josephs]

As our paper points out, there was a pass-through between buildings on the third floor, in the senior DPD officer's wing, along Commerce.

Anyone wanting to see Ruby leave the Western Union office could do so from the third floor windows of the court house... then just walk back to the DPD building where Oswald was being kept on the 3rd floor...  and signal that Ruby was on the way...  we speculate this being Westbrook...

Thanks Gene

 

[Michael Griffith]

On 2/10/2023 at 11:39 AM, Lance Payette said:

You are a veritable Factoid Machine.

Hallmark had no idea whether "you know I'll be there" was in reference to the transfer of Oswald.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/pdf/WH20_Hallmark_Ex_1.pdf

Ruby had called for Wes Wise and instead got someone named Ken.

Mr. HALLMARK said he got the impression that OSWALD's transfer was to take place that afternoon, Saturday, November 23, 1963. He said that RUBY told KEN, "they have
started strewing the flowers at the scene of the assassination," and possibly the transfer (possibly OSWALD's), will be delayed. HALLMARK said he did not know what KEN told
RUBY, but JACK RUBY made a remark during the conversation, "You know I'll be there." RUBY then ended his telephone conversation and told HALLMARK thanks for the the use
of phone and asked for change. for a $10.00 bill.

You are likewise incorrect that the conversation was on "the night before" the transfer on November 24th. It was at 2:50 p.m. on the afternoon of November 23rd and Hallmark understood Ruby was referring to a transfer later that afternoon.

The other witness to the conversation, Thomas Raymond Brown, reported no similar remarks.

So many factoids, so little time.

The prosecution did not buy your innocent explanation of Ruby's phone call. You left out the fact that Ken Dowe said that Ruby asked him when Oswald would be transferred:

          Ken Dowe, a KLIF announcer, to whom Ruby made at least two telephone calls within a short span of time Saturday afternoon, confirmed that he was probably the person to whom Hallmark and Brown overheard Ruby speaking. In one call to Dowe, Ruby asked whether the station knew when Oswald would be moved. . . . (WCR, p. 346)

Now, gee, why was Ruby asking about the time of Oswald's transfer?

Shall we talk about Ruby's numerous calls to Mafia figures in the weeks before the assassination? Or how about the fact that we learned in 1967, from a note written by Ruby himself, that Ruby's professed motive for shooting Oswald was really just a legal ploy suggested by his first attorney (HSCA Report, p. 158)?

And, yes, the phone call was in the afternoon, not the evening.

I notice you said nothing about the HSCA's demolition of the myth that Ruby entered the basement via the Main Street ramp.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Gil and Joe:

David's excellent paper points out that there was a door on the Main St. side of the parking garage which led to the sub-basement, and two doors that opened into passenger elevators in the central part of the garage. Reserve Officer Alvin Brock was assigned to guard the doors and elevators but was re-assigned to traffic detail (about an hour or so before Ruby arrived). There was a second reservist (G.E. Worley, Jr.) guarding that area ... but, after Officer Brock left, he too was reassigned to traffic duty and left the building.  So, twenty minutes before Oswald was brought to the basement, there were no police officers guarding the parking area. This is where Croy enters the scene ... and Ruby arrives in the basement within 1-2 minutes of Oswald's transfer (thanks to Westbrook, Fritz and Harry Holmes), blending in with the news media and knowing exactly where to stand (next to Croy).  And it's clear that he didn't come down the ramp, as the Warren Commission (and Officer Patrick Dean) wanted us to believe.

Nothing coincidental or spontaneous about any of this. 

Gene

Thank you for this very plausible and reasonable postulation.

[Joe Bauer]

Jack Ruby many times explained why he carried a gun upon his person.

He often carried around large sums of cash. Sometimes thousands of dollars and when leaving the Carousel in the early morning hours after closing, one would know to be cautious in that way.

However, it seems Ruby carried on his person his loaded 38 all the time.

Sounds like Ruby practically slept with his loaded 38.

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Allen Lowe]

On 2/11/2023 at 7:10 AM, Lance Payette said:

No, I have to do at least 40 hours for the Cognitive Infiltrator Level 3 merit badge. I think I still have something like 8.2 hours.

I can acknowledge any and all mysteries and suspicions surrounding Jack Ruby while saying the events of the morning of November 24 make no sense by any conspiracy theory I can envision. The CT approach - irrational, but there it is - is to say "all those mysteries and suspicions mean there HAD TO BE a conspiracy, and the hell with the events of the morning of November 24 - we don't have to account for them because there HAD TO BE conspiracy." The "threat" you believe accounts for everything is entirely imaginary - but, hey, there HAD TO BE one.

what? WHAT? Ruby killing LHO ONLY makes sense as part of a conspiracy. There was NO OTHER REASON (except the one he made up as directed by his lawyer to keep Jackie from having to return to Dallas to testify) for him to kill LHO. Plus, we have Ruby ON FILM saying it was a conspiracy. Is that good enough for you? Or do you need to exhume his body for questioning? Oi, you guys wear me out. It's like wack-a-mole - you lose one argument to us so you pop up with another, equally crazy but helpfully distracting.

[Guest]

On 2/13/2023 at 11:21 AM, Allen Lowe said:

what? WHAT? Ruby killing LHO ONLY makes sense as part of a conspiracy. There was NO OTHER REASON (except the one he made up as directed by his lawyer to keep Jackie from having to return to Dallas to testify) for him to kill LHO. Plus, we have Ruby ON FILM saying it was a conspiracy. Is that good enough for you? Or do you need to exhume his body for questioning? Oi, you guys wear me out. It's like wack-a-mole - you lose one argument to us so you pop up with another, equally crazy but helpfully distracting.

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[John Cotter]

12 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

I think you just made my very point: THERE HAD TO BE A CONSPIRACY. Ergo, "n4ver mind" why Ruby was nowhere to be seen when Oswald was supposed to have been moved and found himself in the Western Union office a block away four minutes before the murder. Without the benefit of cellphones or even pagers, it was all planned to the nanosecond because, well, THERE HAD TO BE A CONSPIRACY.

And Allen's point about Ruby himself recorded on camera saying it was a conspiracy?

[Gene Kelly]

3 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

The prosecution did not buy your innocent explanation of Ruby's phone call. You left out the fact that Ken Dowe said that Ruby asked him when Oswald would be transferred:

          Ken Dowe, a KLIF announcer, to whom Ruby made at least two telephone calls within a short span of time Saturday afternoon, confirmed that he was probably the person to whom Hallmark and Brown overheard Ruby speaking. In one call to Dowe, Ruby asked whether the station knew when Oswald would be moved. . . . (WCR, p. 346)

Now, gee, why was Ruby asking about the time of Oswald's transfer?

Shall we talk about Ruby's numerous calls to Mafia figures in the weeks before the assassination? Or how about the fact that we learned in 1967, from a note written by Ruby himself, that Ruby's professed motive for shooting Oswald was really just a legal ploy suggested by his first attorney (HSCA Report, p. 158)?

And, yes, the phone call was in the afternoon, not the evening.

I notice you said nothing about the HSCA's demolition of the myth that Ruby entered the basement via the Main Street ramp.

Let's not forget that a psychiatrist named Louis Jolyon West visited Jack Ruby in his isolation cell in a Dallas jail in April 1964. West found that Jack Ruby was ‘technically insane’ and in need of immediate psychiatric hospitalization. Prior to this, Ruby seemed perfectly sane to the people who knew him. But Louis Jolyon West pronounced him crazy.  West was working for the CIA at the time, as an expert on mind control in the infamous MKUltra program in which powerful psychiatric drugs were being administered to patients without their knowledge. 

West tried to insert himself into the Ruby trial proceedings by petitioning Judge Joe Brown to examine Ruby for the court, but he was rebuffed.  Three times West referred to being told to do this, but never identified by whom.  When Ruby was convicted of murder, he fired his attorney's and hired one of their team for the appeal, Hubert Winston Smith, a psychiatrist with a law degree. One of his first actions was to bring in Jolly West for a reexamination of Ruby.

Strange bedfellows ... to say the least.

Gene

 

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Allen Lowe said:

what? WHAT? Ruby killing LHO ONLY makes sense as part of a conspiracy. There was NO OTHER REASON (except the one he made up as directed by his lawyer to keep Jackie from having to return to Dallas to testify) for him to kill LHO. Plus, we have Ruby ON FILM saying it was a conspiracy. Is that good enough for you? Or do you need to exhume his body for questioning? Oi, you guys wear me out. It's like wack-a-mole - you lose one argument to us so you pop up with another, equally crazy but helpfully distracting.

"distracting" being the key here...  if they can't convince, then be a PITA for as long as possible...

Barlow put it best.... "Aint gonna learn what you don't wanna know"

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

So safe, he left Sheba in the car alone while he sauntered down to the DPD basement area?

There is plenty of counterpoint to 1. a dog even being in the car, and 2. if there was, it was not Sheba...

I've read quite a few things about it... and even if Sheba was in the car, can you just imagine the options left to Ruby should he decide not to kill Oswald as ordered to?  I'd think Sheba was the least of his worries at that point...

Yet, read what you can and make up your own minds...

What amazed us as we learned it was how the basement cops were cleared out 15-30 minutes before he was brought down... just about when Ruby arrives at the Western Union... and would easily be seen from that same 3rd floor window

For those who may have missed the post... here is the pass thru which had been covered over.  and below that is the side door and 3rd floor windows looking out over the parking lot and to the western union office around the corner at the far right

[David Von Pein]

32 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

And Allen's point about Ruby himself recorded on camera saying it was a conspiracy?

Which, of course, totally contradicts these words spoken by the same Jack Ruby during his WC testimony:

MR. RUBY -- "All I want to do is tell the truth, and that is all. There was no conspiracy." [5 H 212]

And he said it again at 14 H 543:  "There was no conspiracy." -- Jack Ruby

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

57 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

And Allen's point about Ruby himself recorded on camera saying it was a conspiracy?

Post that video please.

 

[Guest]

On 2/13/2023 at 12:44 PM, David Josephs said:

There is plenty of counterpoint to 1. a dog even being in the car, and 2. if there was, it was not Sheba...

 

On 2/13/2023 at 5:25 AM, Gil Jesus said:

Police interrogated Oswald until they got the "all clear" signal to move him. The "all clear" didn't mean the transport car was in position because it wasn't, as evident in the video. I suggest that the "all clear" signal meant that Ruby was in position and they could bring Oswald down.

Ruby wouldn't have to KNOW when police were moving Oswald because it was understood that police would simply wait for Ruby to get into position before bringing Oswald down.

If I'm right about that, the timing argument ( that Ruby couldn't possibly know when they were bringing Oswald down ) is nullified.

It also shows that Ruby had conspired with the Dallas Police to kill Oswald.

I believe he was supposed to kill Oswald on Friday night at the "Midnight Press Conference" but got cold feet because he was afraid he'd hit a Dallas Police Officer.

This would have been a perfect time to kill Oswald. They had not yet developed evidence against him for assassinating the President and the timing would have saved police the trouble of a.) arraigning him without evidence and b.) presenting that evidence in a court trial. But Ruby's failure to kill Oswald on Friday night forced the Dallas Police to do just that: to arraign Oswald for assassinating the President without any evidence against him.

The problem of police being in Ruby's line of fire and accidently being shot on Friday night was eliminated on Sunday, when police offered Oswald up without any side or frontal protection. In spite of there being 75 armed policemen in the basement, police made sure Ruby had a clear shot at Oswald that did not endanger any of their own or the members of the press.

Oswald could not be allowed to go to trial and his execution had to be done before he was transferred out of the hands of police and into the sheriff's custody. 

And BTW, flying machines DO crash due to reasons that have nothing to do with their flying capabilites or the distances they travel, like pilot error or mechanical failures. 

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[John Cotter]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Post that video please.

 

Here it is, David:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pooxqYBIlEw

[David Von Pein]

10 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

Here it is, David:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pooxqYBIlEw

Thanks, John. I thought it was probably that video that was being talked about. But we must keep in mind that Jack Ruby's mental state was not exactly A-1 at the time of that video. Nor was Ruby's mental condition what you would consider "normal" in June of 1964 when he said this to Chief Justice Warren:

Mr. RUBY -- "I want to say this to you. The Jewish people are being exterminated at this moment. Consequently, a whole new form of government is going to take over our country, and I know I won't live to see you another time. Do I sound sort of screwy--in telling you these things?"