Moments Leading to Oswald's Deserved Death

[John Cotter]

3 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Thanks, John. I thought it was probably that video that was being talked about. But we must keep in mind that Jack Ruby's mental state was not exactly A-1 at the time of that video. Nor was Ruby's mental condition what you would consider "normal" in June of 1964 when he said this to Chief Justice Warren:

Mr. RUBY -- "I want to say this to you. The Jewish people are being exterminated at this moment. Consequently, a whole new form of government is going to take over our country, and I know I won't live to see you another time. Do I sound sort of screwy--in telling you these things?"

You're welcome, David.

[Ron Bulman]

David is right for once.  Ruby was screwy by June 1964 when he talked to Warren.  He rambled in depth.  All shortly after he was visited by the CIA's MKULTRA's Dr. Louis Jolyon West.  And declared (suddenly!) insane.  After having been previously declared sane by multiple other psychiatrists. 

[Gene Kelly]

Ron

I share your fascination with Dr. Jolyon West's visits to Jack Ruby.  If he were to show up in my jail cell - knowing of his reputation and MKUltra work - I would certainly be worried.  Here are some excerpts that I have found about West and his suspicious interest in Jack Ruby:

Ruby had an isolated cell constructed for him to live in as he awaited his fate and contemplated the possibility of being executed. Dr. West’s research proposal to the CIA (and Sidney Gottlieb) - uncovered years later in his UCLA files by Tom O'Neill - stated (in part) that:

“There is reason to believe that environmental manipulations can affect the tendencies for dissociative phenomena to occur. Isolation, in particular, can markedly change the individual’s response to suggestion in the form of verbal communication. It is proposed that new experiments utilizing special environmental manipulations, including sensory isolation, be begun.”

West’s proposal specifies that these can produce marked personality changes, which Ruby appeared to have undergone in West’s examination of him. The report asserts that Ruby was psychotic and delusional at the time. In his report, West said that “hypnosis and intravenous sodium pentothal were included among possible techniques” to be used on Ruby. In his proposal to CIA for continuing his MKULTRA work with them, he proposed that “the combined use of hypnotic techniques and autonomic drugs be exercised.” Sodium pentothal, as a barbiturate, is one such autonomic drug that - frequently used in various MKULTRA experiments and other interrogation or hypnosis related programs. Then there is this revealing article published on an Ohio State University website:

Ruby Bangs Head on Wall in Dallas Jail (April 27, 1964, The Ohio State Lantern)

DALLAS—Condemned slayer Jack Ruby took advantage of his jailer's momentary absence early yesterday to ram his head into the wall of his cell in what Sheriff Bill Decker called "a deliberate act. " "Apparently, he suffered only a knot on his head, " the Sheriff said. The convicted slayer of accused presidential assassin Lee Harvey Oswald was rushed under heavy guard to a Dallas hospital for a physical examination but Decker said that x-rays of his head revealed no injury. But when he was returned to his cell, Ruby attempted to rip his clothing into strips, Sheriff Decker said. As precautionary measures the few furnishings were removed from Ruby's cell, leaving him only a mattress. The sheriff gave newsmen his account:

Ruby had refused to go to bed and had been talking with one of the guards who are assigned to watch him on a round-the-clock basis. About 1 am. Ruby asked the guard for a drink of water, just as the jailer started to leave the cell, Ruby lowered his head, took several fast steps and rammed his head against the cell wall. The guard, who stepped back into the cell quickly and restrained him, said Ruby did not lose consciousness. The jail doctor was called immediately. He found an abrasion on the scalp, but no cut. Later yesterday Ruby was visited in his cell by Dr. Louis Jolyon West of the Oklahoma School of Medicine a psychiatrist recently engaged by the defense counsel. Dr. West declined to reveal his findings to newsmen.

Gene

 

[Michael Griffith]

18 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

I think you just made my very point: THERE HAD TO BE A CONSPIRACY. Ergo, "never mind" why Ruby was nowhere to be seen when Oswald was supposed to have been moved and found himself in the Western Union office a block away four minutes before the murder. Without the benefit of cellphones or even pagers, it was all planned to the nanosecond because, well, THERE HAD TO BE A CONSPIRACY.

Your capacity for ignoring evidence and making vacuous, obtuse arguments is once again evident.

You ignore the fact that Ruby was overheard the previous day asking about when Oswald would be transferred. (Now, gee, why did he do that?) You ignore the fact that the officer on dispatch duty the night before, Billy Grammer, said that a man who sounded like Ruby called the DPD, that the man knew about the actual time that Oswald would be transferred, and that the man warned that the police needed to change the transfer plan or else Oswald would be killed. You ignore the fact Ruby made a slew of calls to Mafia contacts in the weeks leading up to the assassination. You ignore the fact that Ruby waited awhile in front of the Western Union office before entering to buy the money order. (Gee, why?) You ignore the fact that Ruby had many close contacts inside the DPD. You ignore the fact that the HSCA destroyed the myth that Ruby entered the basement via the Main Street ramp. (Gee, why did Ruby lie about that?) You ignore the fact that the HSCA determined that analysis of Ruby's polygraph examination suggested that he actually failed the question about involvement in a conspiracy. You ignore the fact that it was later revealed that Ruby admitted, in writing, to his second attorney that his alleged motive for killing Oswald was phony. You ignore the fact that Ruby himself later said there was a conspiracy (and he seemed perfectly lucid when he said it). 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Guest]

23 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Your capacity for ignoring evidence and making vacuous, obtuse arguments is once again evident.

Bye

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Gil Jesus]

On 2/10/2023 at 5:13 AM, Robert Burrows said:

This is sick and extremely offensive. Obviously you don't believe in the rule of law. In the United States, a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law: Oswald was denied that right. No one accused of a crime deserves summary execution. 

 

I agree. To suggest that ANY defendant accused of a crime deserves death before a fair trial by his peers is ludicrous. In this case, where only the prosecution's side was heard, it makes no sense. While the Warren Commission apologists label Oswald the "assassin" of President Kennedy, the truth is that he was the "ACCUSED assassin" only. 

No one accused of a crime deserves to die without a defense. 

[Guest]

23 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

You ignore the fact that Ruby waited awhile in front of the Western Union office before entering to buy the money order. (Gee, why?)

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

While the Warren Commission apologists label Oswald the "assassin" of President Kennedy, the truth is that he was the "ACCUSED assassin" only. 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Joe Bauer]

42 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

42 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

Factoid time!  Ruby said he got up at 9:30, took a double dose of the diet pills that made him mean and agitated ...

and then " he patiently waited in line" at Western Union while another customer did his business.   ???

 

Took two pills that made him "mean and agitated"

And then waited "patiently" while another customer did his business?

The two "factoid" accounts contradict each other.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

William "Blackie" Harrison.

One of Ruby's closest and longest known DPD friends on the force.

Ruby is inches from and behind Harrison when Ruby bounds out of the press crowd to whack Oswald.

Didn't Harrison ever once look behind himself at the press crowd instead of straight ahead at Oswald as Oswald was being led toward the press crowd?

Wasn't Harrison's job imbedded into the press crowd to make sure no one in this crowd did what Jack Ruby did? Security?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Bill Brown]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Your capacity for ignoring evidence and making vacuous, obtuse arguments is once again evident.

You ignore the fact that Ruby was overheard the previous day asking about when Oswald would be transferred. (Now, gee, why did he do that?) You ignore the fact that the officer on dispatch duty the night before, Billy Grammer, said that a man who sounded like Ruby called the DPD, that the man knew about the actual time that Oswald would be transferred, and that the man warned that the police needed to change the transfer plan or else Oswald would be killed. You ignore the fact Ruby made a slew of calls to Mafia contacts in the weeks leading up to the assassination. You ignore the fact that Ruby waited awhile in front of the Western Union office before entering to buy the money order. (Gee, why?) You ignore the fact that Ruby had many close contacts inside the DPD. You ignore the fact that the HSCA destroyed the myth that Ruby entered the basement via the Main Street ramp. (Gee, why did Ruby lie about that?) You ignore the fact that the HSCA determined that analysis of Ruby's polygraph examination suggested that he actually failed the question about involvement in a conspiracy. You ignore the fact that it was later revealed that Ruby admitted, in writing, to his second attorney that his alleged motive for killing Oswald was phony. You ignore the fact that Ruby himself later said there was a conspiracy (and he seemed perfectly lucid when he said it). 

 

"You ignore the fact that the officer on dispatch duty the night before, Billy Grammer, said that a man who sounded like Ruby called the DPD, that the man knew about the actual time that Oswald would be transferred, and that the man warned that the police needed to change the transfer plan or else Oswald would be killed."

 

And when exactly is it that you believe we first hear of this story from Grammer?

 

[Joe Bauer]

Grammer made his story up?

He didn't know Jack Ruby well enough to confidently claim it was Ruby on the other end of that call?

Sometimes one has to weigh certain facts against others and simply use their life time experience common sense to decide who and what to believe in situations of truth determination.

Grammer was a Lieutenant on the police force? Finished a full career in police work.

Didn't have any history of odd or bad behavior or disciplinary actions?

Grammer certainly didn't make a dime off of his public recounting Ruby call.

At some point a rational person just has to decide whether someone like Grammer is telling the truth or mistaken and why a person like him would go out on a limb and publicly say what he did.

The man was in the work station he claimed he was and at the time he said he was.

Did he ever go back on public record later in his life and express that he may have been mistaken regards his Ruby call claim?

There are many JFK/Oswald/Ruby connected characters in the whole affair whom we all must decide whether they told the truth in their claims.

I don't like to be duped like a fool into believing just any claims regarding such a massively important event in our lives. My personal sense of intelligent integrity is at stake and I care about it.

With that said here are "some" of the actors and their claims I "have" decided to believe regards the JFK event. Many from humble working class people who never gained by coming forward and in many cases were burdened by doing so.

Sylvia and Annie Odio.

Virgina Murchison housekeeper Mae Newman.

Louisiana state policeman Francis Fruge.

Dallas County Sheriff Al Maddox.

Guy Banister part time investigator Jack Martin.

New Orlean's Habana bar owner Orest Pena.

New Orleans booking police officer Aloysius Habighorst to whom Clay Shaw admitted one of his aliases was "Clay Bertrand."

Dallas police dispatcher Lieutenant Billy Grammer.

Billy Sol Estes regards the true massive level of corruption of LBJ, including LBJ's involvement with the murder of Henry Marshall and probably others.

Army Special Forces Lt. Colonel Dan Marvin.

Miami police informant Willie Somersett. etc. etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Took two pills that made him "mean and agitated"

And then waited "patiently" while another customer did his business?

The two "factoid" accounts contradict each other.

Hi

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Michael Griffith]

3 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Those vacuous, obtuse arguments are known by another name outside of conspiracy world: Rationality, logic and common sense.

Chew on this, which I just posted on another thread, and get back to me when you've digested it. I even added a new #6 that occurred to me on my morning walk!

Let's put on our most basic thinking caps, the ones we wore back in Miss Muffy's JFKA Kindergarten, and THINK:

1. You - we'll say "you" is the Mafia or CIA, as the case may be - need Oswald dead before he talks. Elements of the DPD are on board. Nevertheless, he somehow survives the TSBD, his trip to the rooming house, his journey to the theater, his arrest, and two days in custody during which you parade him in front of the press. OK ...

2. You assign the task of eliminating Oswald to an erratic, two-bit nightclub owner. OK ...

3. You plan the entire elimination of Oswald around having the two-bit nightclub owner in place, even though he's at a Western Union office a block away four minutes before the deed, and the place you have chosen for the deed is exceedingly public with hordes of press and cameras. OK ...

4. You entrust the two-bit nightclub owner, whose only role is to eliminate Oswald, with details of the JFK assassination up to and including the involvement of LBJ. Compartmentalization is apparently not your forte. OK ...

5. Despite #1, you are desperately afraid Oswald will talk. You are not, however, afraid that the erratic, two-bit nightclub owner will talk. OK ...

6. Despite the erratic, two-bit nightclub owner having just handed your DPD insiders a golden opportunity to eliminate him with no questions asked and wrap up the entire tidy package with a bow, your DPD insiders nevertheless wrestle him to the ground and afford him years of opportunities to talk.

THINK. None of this makes any sense from any perspective other than, "I don't care about facts or logic. I want a conspiracy, dammit!!!"

Your post highlights what I see as a key problem. Too many CTers go right past rationality, logic and common sense and immerse themselves in a forest of dubious details and wild speculation. Rationality, logic and common sense are admittedly more dull than speculating about the autopsy photos, but they can prevent one from getting lost in the forest.

"A man who sounded like Ruby" ... "a slew of calls to Mafia contacts" ... "waited awhile in front of the Western Union office" ... "many close contacts in the DPD" ... "HSCA destroyed the myth" ... "failed the polygraph" ... "admitted the motive was phony" ... YEAH, BABY!

I actually have far too much respect for the professionalism of the Mafia to think the scenario you posit makes any sense at all. But chew on my six points above and get back to me.

How is it rational and logical to ignore evidence that plainly and clearly points to premeditation and deception? I find your arguments irrational and disingenuous. I notice you simply brushed aside with a smug summary dismissal evidence that you can't explain: Ruby's waiting outside the Western Union office, his asking about Oswald's transfer, his lying about how he got into the basement, his numerous calls to Mafia contacts in the weeks before the assassination, his written admission that his alleged motive was phony, his apparent (it's pretty clear) failing of the polygraph question about conspiracy, etc.

Once again, you resort to theory and speculation in dismissing evidence you can't explain.  You can't imagine, or claim you can't imagine, that the Mafia would use a guy like Ruby to hit Oswald. Yet, organized crime experts have noted that Ruby is exactly the kind of guy that the Mafia liked to use. 

"Dull speculating about the autopsy photos." There's no "speculating" involved. The evidence is open and shut. 

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Ruby's waiting outside the Western Union office,

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette