My Tippit Debate w/Matt Douthit

[Bill Brown]

19 hours ago, Marcus Fuller said:

That's my point. It means he wouldn't have been out of the truck within seconds (ie 2-3) after the shooting. 

 

I don't know of anyone who believes (or has argued) that Benavides was out of his truck just 2 or 3 seconds after the shooting.

 

[Gerry Down]

Good debate but Douthit got you on one point. Jimmy Burt told two researchers the person he saw was not Oswald. And to the FBI it was not stated in their report wheather the person was Oswald or not. Given the fact the FBI were trying to close the door on the case in that timeframe, my money is on the likelihood that the FBI asked Jimmy Burt if the person was Oswald, and when the reply was in the negative, the FBI seniority decided that point should be left out of the report entirely.

But what does it matter anyway? Burt was too far away from the Tippit shooting scene to identify anyone down there. I presume Burt's identification of this man is based upon seeing him pass right by the house Burt was in. But that person was not Oswald as Oswald never passed by the house Burt was in. That was someone completely different walking on the sidewalk unrelated to the Tippit shooting. And so Burt would be right, that person was not Oswald.

[Bill Brown]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:27 PM, Gerry Down said:

Good debate but Douthit got you on one point. Jimmy Burt told two researchers the person he saw was not Oswald. And to the FBI it was not stated in their report wheather the person was Oswald or not. Given the fact the FBI were trying to close the door on the case in that timeframe, my money is on the likelihood that the FBI asked Jimmy Burt if the person was Oswald, and when the reply was in the negative, the FBI seniority decided that point should be left out of the report entirely.

But what does it matter anyway? Burt was too far away from the Tippit shooting scene to identify anyone down there. I presume Burt's identification of this man is based upon seeing him pass right by the house Burt was in. But that person was not Oswald as Oswald never passed by the house Burt was in. That was someone completely different walking on the sidewalk unrelated to the Tippit shooting. And so Burt would be right, that person was not Oswald.

 

Who are the two researchers who you believe Burt told them that the person he saw was NOT Oswald?  I have the transcripts and the audio of Burt's interview with Al Chapman.  Though Chapman later sums up the interview in his article which appeared in The National Enquirer and in the article claims Burt told him the man was not Oswald, it isn't so.  Burt never said it.

 

[Gerry Down]

2 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Who are the two researchers who you believe Burt told them that the person he saw was NOT Oswald?  I have the transcripts and the audio of Burt's interview with Al Chapman.  Though Chapman later sums up the interview in his article which appeared in The National Enquirer and in the article claims Burt told him the man was not Oswald, it isn't so.  Burt never said it.

I don't know the two researchers names off hand. Douthit mentions them in the debate and the way you responded to him led me to believe that you were not disputing that issue but focusing instead on Douthits claim that the FBI likely asked Burt if the person was Oswald, to which Burt had responded in the negative, and the FBI then chose to omit that from their report. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Gerry Down
Spelling

[Bill Brown]

On 11/29/2023 at 7:02 PM, Gerry Down said:

I don't know the two researchers names off hand. Douthit mentions them in the debate and the way you responded to him led me to believe that you were not disputing that issue but focusing instead on Douthits claim that the FBI likely asked Burt if the person was Oswald, to which Burt had responded in the negative, and the FBI then chose to omit that from their report. 

 

I am here to tell you right now that every single witness who actually saw the gunman never went on record as saying the man was NOT Oswald.

 

[Donald Willis]

On 11/20/2023 at 10:20 AM, Michael Griffith said:

You are stuck in a time warp, as if it were still the 1960s. One FBI lab report said Oswald's revolver had a defective firing pin and wouldn't even fire a bullet. BuLab concluded “the firing pin would not strike one or more of the cartridges with sufficient force to fire them.”

Speaking of those bullet shells, why didn't they have Poe's markings on them? And why didn't they have any firing-pin indentations on them? Hey? How could Sgt. Hill have mistaken revolver shells for auto shells when auto shells are clearly marked as such? I know, I know: yet another "mistake."

The fact that Tippit was shot several minutes before Oswald could have even speed-walked there is not a "red herring" but an inconvenient fact that you folks will never admit. Thus, you lamely assume that Bowley's watch was severely slow or that he misread it, that Markham couldn't read the clock in her apartment complex's laundry room or that she "misremembered" the time on the clock, and that Benavides only waited a few seconds before coming out of his truck, never mind that he initially said he was scared to death and stayed in his truck for a few minutes (as any sane, sensible person would have done), etc., etc.

No one seems to have responded here to the claim that a defective firing pin would have made it impossible for the gun to have been used in Tippit's murder.  Or are we to assume that this problem was addressed long ago and is no longer a problem?

[Robert Morrow]

On 11/20/2023 at 11:08 AM, David Von Pein said:

The constant "He Couldn't Have Possibly Gotten To Tenth Street In Time To Kill Tippit" refrain we keep hearing from conspiracy theorists is a huge red herring (i.e., cop out). CTers will forever ignore the very best evidence in the Tippit case---the bullet shells that littered 10th & Patton on 11/22/63.

What four bullet shells were found at 10th and Patten? I have a question for you: who found these shells? Was it the DALLAS POLICE DEPT? And did they really match Oswald's revolver? Well so what if they did because the DALLAS POLICE DEPT was on the frame up of Oswald for the JFK assassination from the very beginning.

Are you telling me the very sketchy DALLAS POLICE DEPT. found these 4 shells? Do you consider the DALLAS POLICE DEPT a credible source on ANYTHING related to the JFK assassination or the murder of Officer J.D. Tippit?

It has been proven that the DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT was part of the immediate framing of completely innocent CIA patsy Lee Harvey Oswald. We know to a point of 100% certainty that the DALLAS POLICE DEPT was involved in the immediate framing of Oswald for the JFK assassination because the DALLAS POLICE DEPT starting at 12:44PM began using Marguerite Oswald's physical description of her son Oswald that she gave to Dallas FBI agent John Fain in May of 1960: "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds." The DALLAS POLICE DEPT dispatcher said to be on the look out for a suspect with a rifle at the corner of Elm and Houston Street and he is "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds." The description of Oswald as "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds" also appears in a CIA document created on 10/10/1963, the month before the JFK assassination and also in an INS document created well before the JFK assassination. The DALLAS POLICE DEPT gave out this description 5 times within 24 minutes.

Therefore, it has been PROVEN that the DALLAS POLICE DEPT was framing Oswald beginning at 12:44PM on 11-22-1963 and they were using the words of Marguerite Oswald in 1960 to do it. So if any shells at the Tippit scene "match" the revolver of Oswald, they were obviously planted into evidence well after Tippit was murdered as the DALLAS POLICE DEPT tried to frame Lee Harvey Oswald for the Tippit murder just as they were trying to frame Oswald for the JFK assassination.

Absolute Proof Lee Harvey Oswald was a *pre-selected patsy* for the JFK assassination: “5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds” https://robertmorrowpoliticalresearchblog.blogspot.com/2023/01/5-feet-10-inches-165-pounds-is-absolute.html  Dallas Police Dispatcher was immediately using Marguerite Oswald’s description of Lee given to Dallas FBI in May, 1960

 

 

 

 

 

[Greg Doudna]

21 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

No one seems to have responded here to the claim that a defective firing pin would have made it impossible for the gun to have been used in Tippit's murder.  Or are we to assume that this problem was addressed long ago and is no longer a problem?

That claim seems to be nothing more than CT urban legend, Donald. I myself tried to find evidence for that claim but there isn’t any. The FBI lab reported that revolver was in excellent, perfectly good working order without a thing wrong with it, and there is no document from a primary source saying otherwise, only book authors’ hearsay claims which never cite a primary document as footnote. 

The claim probably originated as a speculated explanation for the “click” or alleged failed shot during the struggle for the handgun.

I believe two officers thought they were each the owner of the one hand a fleshy part of which was injured by the striking of the revolver’s hammer and which stopped the bullet from firing—McDonald, and Paul Bentley who also claimed he had a bruised hand from the same cause (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIQqi1CF21U).

Another detail that receives little notice is McDonald in a later interview  I have seen on YouTube told of how as he struggled for the revolver and both his and Oswald’s hands were on it, the revolver was pointed at one point (so McDonald said) at Oswald and McDonald said he was tempted to shoot Oswald which he indicates he could have but said he resisted that impulse out of concern that if he did the bullet would go through Oswald and hit an officer behind Oswald. Was McDonald embellishing in that telling? Who knows. Maybe it was true? Wouldn’t it be interesting if when that trigger was accidentally or intentionally pulled the revolver was pointed at Oswald? 

[Donald Willis]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

That claim seems to be nothing more than CT urban legend, Donald. I myself tried to find evidence for that claim but there isn’t any. The FBI lab reported that revolver was in excellent, perfectly good working order without a thing wrong with it, and there is no document from a primary source saying otherwise, only book authors’ hearsay claims which never cite a primary document as footnote. 

The claim probably originated as a speculated explanation for the “click” or alleged failed shot during the struggle for the handgun.

I believe two officers thought they were each the owner of the one hand a fleshy part of which was injured by the striking of the revolver’s hammer and which stopped the bullet from firing—McDonald, and Paul Bentley who also claimed he had a bruised hand from the same cause (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIQqi1CF21U).

Another detail that receives little notice is McDonald in a later interview  I have seen on YouTube told of how as he struggled for the revolver and both his and Oswald’s hands were on it, the revolver was pointed at one point (so McDonald said) at Oswald and McDonald said he was tempted to shoot Oswald which he indicates he could have but said he resisted that impulse out of concern that if he did the bullet would go through Oswald and hit an officer behind Oswald. Was McDonald embellishing in that telling? Who knows. Maybe it was true? Wouldn’t it be interesting if when that trigger was accidentally or intentionally pulled the revolver was pointed at Oswald? 

Thank you, Greg.  That clears that up.  

[David Von Pein]

7 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

Are you telling me the very sketchy DALLAS POLICE DEPT. found these 4 shells?

This is some of the most basic evidence in the case. Are you really saying here that you don't know anything about the origin of the 4 bullet shells found at 10th & Patton? Or are you just playing around?

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Robert Morrow]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:25 PM, David Von Pein said:

This is some of the most basic evidence in the case. Are you really saying here that you don't know anything about the origin of the 4 bullet shells found at 10th & Patton? Or are you just playing around?

 

I don't think that the 4 shells that were actually found at 10th and Patton came from Oswald's gun. And even if they DID come from Oswald's gun, so what? They would have obviously been planted into the evidence by the super corrupt Dallas police who were under the political control of LBJ's Dallas business elite who hated John Kennedy and were involved in the JFK assassination. The Dallas police were used to frame Oswald starting at 12:44 PM when the Dallas Police Dispatcher began spewing out a suspect description of "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds."

It has been proven, beyond a shadow of doubt that the Dallas Police Dept. was immediately involved in framing completely innocent CIA patsy Lee Harvey Oswald for the JFK assassination. Therefore any "evidence" produced by the Dallas police has a high likelihood of being fabricated and includes their warped and massaged interviews of witnesses.

The proof is the Dallas Police Dispatcher was immediately and repeatedly telling all Dallas police to be on the look out for a suspect with a rifle at the corner of Elm and Houston street and this "suspect" (really a pre-selected CIA patsy) was supposedly "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds."

I have a blog post on this topic: https://robertmorrowpoliticalresearchblog.blogspot.com/2023/01/5-feet-10-inches-165-pounds-is-absolute.html

Whoever was manipulating the Dallas Police Dept. into framing Lee Harvey Oswald got that precise description of Oswald from his mother Marguerite Oswald who told Dallas FBI agent John Fain in May of 1960 that her son was "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds. The DPD was using Marguerite's own words to frame her son Lee Harvey Oswald!

Dallas FBI agent John W. Fain wrote up this physical description of Oswald in an FBI report dated 5/12/60 – This description was given by Marguerite Oswald and is located on page 145 out of 206 pages of Oswald’s 201 file: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95569#relPageId=145 In this FBI report Marguerite Oswald describes her son Lee as “five feet 10 inches, 165 pounds.”

 The 5/12/1960 FBI report was written up by Dallas FBI agent John W. Fain:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95569#relPageId=139

 A 12/05/1961 Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) document repeats the physical description of Oswald being “light brown” hair, blue eyes and 5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds. Description is on page 76 out of 112 pages in this file:

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=110676&relPageId=76&search=Fysa

 A 10/10/1963 CIA document by C. Bustos (6 weeks before the JFK assassination) described Oswald as “FIVE FEET TEN INCHES, ONE HUNDRED SIXTY FIVE POUNDS, LIGHT BROWN WAVY HAIR, BLUE EYES” https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=110013#relPageId=2 – Oswald physical description is page 2 of the 4 page document.

 

 

 

 

[Donald Willis]

15 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

I don't think that the 4 shells that were actually found at 10th and Patton came from Oswald's gun. And even if they DID come from Oswald's gun, so what? They would have obviously been planted into the evidence by the super corrupt Dallas police who were under the political control of LBJ's Dallas business elite who hated John Kennedy and were involved in the JFK assassination. The Dallas police were used to frame Oswald starting at 12:44 PM when the Dallas Police Dispatcher began spewing out a suspect description of "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds."

It has been proven, beyond a shadow of doubt that the Dallas Police Dept. was immediately involved in framing completely innocent CIA patsy Lee Harvey Oswald for the JFK assassination. Therefore any "evidence" produced by the Dallas police has a high likelihood of being fabricated and includes their warped and massaged interviews of witnesses.

The proof is the Dallas Police Dispatcher was immediately and repeatedly telling all Dallas police to be on the look out for a suspect with a rifle at the corner of Elm and Houston street and this "suspect" (really a pre-selected CIA patsy) was supposedly "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds."

I have a blog post on this topic: https://robertmorrowpoliticalresearchblog.blogspot.com/2023/01/5-feet-10-inches-165-pounds-is-absolute.html

Whoever was manipulating the Dallas Police Dept. into framing Lee Harvey Oswald got that precise description of Oswald from his mother Marguerite Oswald who told Dallas FBI agent John Fain in May of 1960 that her son was "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds. The DPD was using Marguerite's own words to frame her son Lee Harvey Oswald!

Dallas FBI agent John W. Fain wrote up this physical description of Oswald in an FBI report dated 5/12/60 – This description was given by Marguerite Oswald and is located on page 145 out of 206 pages of Oswald’s 201 file: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95569#relPageId=145 In this FBI report Marguerite Oswald describes her son Lee as “five feet 10 inches, 165 pounds.”

 The 5/12/1960 FBI report was written up by Dallas FBI agent John W. Fain:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95569#relPageId=139

 A 12/05/1961 Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) document repeats the physical description of Oswald being “light brown” hair, blue eyes and 5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds. Description is on page 76 out of 112 pages in this file:

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=110676&relPageId=76&search=Fysa

 A 10/10/1963 CIA document by C. Bustos (6 weeks before the JFK assassination) described Oswald as “FIVE FEET TEN INCHES, ONE HUNDRED SIXTY FIVE POUNDS, LIGHT BROWN WAVY HAIR, BLUE EYES” https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=110013#relPageId=2 – Oswald physical description is page 2 of the 4 page document.

 

"Whoever was manipulating the Dallas Police Dept. into framing Lee Harvey Oswald got that precise description of Oswald from his mother Marguerite Oswald who told Dallas FBI agent John Fain in May of 1960 that her son was "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds. The DPD was using Marguerite's own words to frame her son Lee Harvey Oswald!"

If that's where the DPD originally got that description, then they really screwed up.  Because an FBI dispatch to Gordon Shanklin connected that physical description to a report from DPD Insp. Sawyer that a suspect so described was seen running from the depository "shortly after the shooting... Approximately 30, slender, 5'10", 165 lbs..... [carrying] a 30/30... Winchester."  So much for the rifle found upstairs later in the building!

 

15 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

On 12/24/2023 at 8:53 PM, Robert Morrow said:

 

It has been proven, beyond a shadow of doubt that the Dallas Police Dept. was immediately involved in framing completely innocent CIA patsy Lee Harvey Oswald for the JFK assassination. Therefore any "evidence" produced by the Dallas police has a high likelihood of being fabricated and includes their warped and massaged interviews of witnesses.

The proof is the Dallas Police Dispatcher was immediately and repeatedly telling all Dallas police to be on the look out for a suspect with a rifle at the corner of Elm and Houston street and this "suspect" (really a pre-selected CIA patsy) was supposedly "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds."

I have a blog post on this topic: https://robertmorrowpoliticalresearchblog.blogspot.com/2023/01/5-feet-10-inches-165-pounds-is-absolute.html

Whoever was manipulating the Dallas Police Dept. into framing Lee Harvey Oswald got that precise description of Oswald from his mother Marguerite Oswald who told Dallas FBI agent John Fain in May of 1960 that her son was "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds. The DPD was using Marguerite's own words to frame her son Lee Harvey Oswald!

 

Robert,

I think it gets a little complicated, because I personally think the DPD was actually trying to frame somebody named Harvey Lee Oswald.

WC testimony of Earlene Roberts April 8, 1964
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/robertse.htm
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was Will Fritz' men---it was plainclothesmen and I was at the back doing something and Mr. Johnson answered the door and they identified themselves and then he called me.
Mr. BALL. What did they say?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they asked him if there was a Harvey Lee Oswald there
Mr. BALL. And you didn't have that name you didn't ever know his name was Lee Oswald?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No---he registered as O. H. Lee and they were asking for Harvey Lee Oswald.

CE 2003 located in (24H259) is the list submitted to Captain Gannaway through Jack Revill of TSBD employees. It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth.

There have been references on several threads about a cable sent on the evening of 11/22 from Fort Sam Houston to Strike Command, McDill AFB in Florida. In the cable, reference was made, to information obtained by Detective Don Stringfellow of the Dallas Police Department. I managed to locate a copy of the cable, which you can find here:
https://archive.org/details/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK
I think this is in the Weisberg collection.

L.D. Stringfellow was a Detective in the Dallas Police Department's Special Service Bureau of which Revill was a Lieutenant.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

1) Note the reference in this military intelligence file's cable to Harvey Lee Oswald.

In the Stringfellow cable referenced above, Harvey Lee Oswald was described as 5'10" tall, 165 lbs, with blue eyes.

When Sheriff, Bill Decker appeared before the Warren Commission, he brought with him a heavy brown notebook containing his case file. It was labeled Harvey Lee Oswald.

Steve Thomas

[Ron Bulman]

Steve, that's almost funny if it wasn't serious.  The DPD tying to frame Harvey Lee Oswald, when they let Jack Ruby kill LHO in the basement.  Then Decker of the Sheriff's Office, where he was to be transferred to, taking a Harvey Lee Oswald file to the Warren Omission.  What a bad joke.

[Steve Thomas]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:08 AM, Robert Morrow said:

the DALLAS POLICE DEPT starting at 12:44PM began using Marguerite Oswald's physical description of her son Oswald that she gave to Dallas FBI agent John Fain in May of 1960: "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds." The DALLAS POLICE DEPT dispatcher said to be on the look out for a suspect with a rifle at the corner of Elm and Houston Street and he is "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds." The description of Oswald as "5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds" also appears in a CIA document created on 10/10/1963, the month before the JFK assassination and also in an INS document created well before the JFK assassination. The DALLAS POLICE DEPT gave out this description 5 times within 24 minutes.

Robert,

WC testimony of DPD Sergeant Gerald Hill:

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

"We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.
Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a Jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair."

Finally, the broadcast over the Dallas police radio fifteen minutes after JFK was shot was that the unidentified assassin was “5/10, 165 pounds...”

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...Vol23_0438a.htm

 

Posted by Bill Simpich in the Education Forum 10/11/2009

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/4023-lee-henry-oswald/

“Although confused commentators have claimed that Howard Brennan was the source, it's well documented that an "unidentified citizen" gave the above description to Inspector Sawyer after he saw someone looking like Oswald running from the Book Depository immediately after the assassination. The citizen did not comply with the sheriff's request to come to the office later to fill out a report, and Hoover said that the "sheriff's office can locate no record on this citizen".

JFK Documents - Federal Bureau of Investigation/ FBI Oswald Headquarters File (105-82555)/

FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 64

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57753&relPageId=109

Letter from J. Edgar Hoover to J. Lee Rankin January 14, 1964

Even after the Warren Report was published, Hoover responded in November, 1964 to general counsel J. Lee Rankin's request that according to the Dallas police the information came from an ‘unidentified citizen’.”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=72 -

Rankin repeated his request to Hoover for more information on this incident, but apparently to no avail.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=33

 

Steve Thomas