Fact Checking DiEugenio, re: Tippit

[Bill Brown]

Our Hidden History interview with Jim DiEugenio:

https://ourhiddenhistory.org/2018/05/25/james-dieugenio-the-j-d-tippit-murder-case-in-the-new-millennium-an-our-hidden-history-interview.html

 

"The Warren Commission said that Oswald after the shooting of Kennedy left work, was driven by a taxi to his rooming house in Oak Cliff that he was only at the rooming house for a short period of time that he picked up his revolver and walked outside and went to a corner across the street.

 

No, not across the street.  Earlene Roberts stated that she saw Oswald standing near the bus stop on the same side of the street as the rooming house.

 

"Anyway that's the last time the landlady saw him. She said that he was there at about 1:04."

 

No.  Roberts does not say anything about 1:04.  She testified that Oswald came in "around 1 o'clock, or maybe a little after".  She added that she really wouldn't want to say what time it was that Oswald came in.  She testified that Oswald went back into his room and stayed about "three or four minutes", a figure of speech.  She continues by saying that Oswald was back in his room just long enough to go in there and get a jacket and put it on.  This last part is not a figure of speech; it is a literal description of just how long she felt that Oswald was back in his room.  Oswald was most likely back in his room for no more than sixty seconds because that is all the time it requires to grab a jacket and put it on.  Regardless, she doesn't say anything about 1:04.

 

"Roger Craig had a watch on. These witnesses placed at the shooting of Tippit much closer to about 1:06 or 1:07."

 

First of all, Roger Craig (in his manuscript titled When They Kill A President) said that he heard the news of the Tippit shooting from a nearby police radio (while in Dealey Plaza) and he looked at his watch, noting that the time was 1:06.  Neither the Dallas Police tapes nor the Dallas County Sheriff's tapes make any mention of any shooting over in Oak Cliff until we hear from T.F. Bowley at 1:16/1:17 (depending on who you want to use), i.e. there was never any broadcast on the tapes at 1:06 about a police officer getting shot.

 

Secondly, Craig (along with Penn Jones) was interviewed in 1968 by the L.A. Free Press.  In the interview, Craig was asked what time the Tippit shooting occurred.  His reply was "about 1:40".  Jones immediately corrects Craig, informing Craig that the shooting actually occurred at 1:15.  Craig's reply: "Oh that's right.  The broadcast was put out shortly after 1:15 on Tippit's killer."

 

1968:  Roger Craig (obviously unaware that he was going to try to sell a manuscript a few years later) believed (until he was corrected by Penn Jones) that the Tippit shooting occurred around 1:40.

1970's:  While trying to sell a manuscript, Roger Craig concocts a story of hearing of the shooting of a police officer in Oak Cliff and looking down at his wristwatch, noting that the time was 1:06.

 

"Warren Reynolds was also an eyewitness, saw the guy running away from the scene, said he would not commit to identifying Oswald then he was shot through the head and he changed his mind, and now he said he would identify Oswald."

 

Let's be a little more honest about this.

 

Warren Reynolds, before he was shot in the head, told the FBI that he was "of the opinion" that the man he saw running with a gun was Lee Oswald, but Reynolds added that he would hesitate to state for a certainty that the man was Oswald.

 

Why wouldn't Mr. DiEugenio simply quote the actual FBI interview with Reynolds?

 

"The lineups at Dallas Police Department were very unfair, to say the least... Further, when asked their names and occupations, the other people in the lineup who were policemen gave fictitious answers. Oswald said his real name and said he worked at Texas School Book Depository. What the heck kind of lineup is that? It's just a joke."

 

There is no evidence whatsoever that Oswald was asked, during any of the lineups, to state his place of employment and that he answered that he worked at the Depository.

 

"Now, further complicating that, Jerry Hill said he told an officer, JM Poe to mark the shells. His marks were not evident when the policemen inspected the exhibits for the commission."

 

Poe told the Warren Commission that he couldn't be certain that he ever did mark the shells.

 

"Further, when the witnesses who found the other two shells were asked by the FBI to identify them as the ones they originally recovered, they could not."

 

Is this really supposed to mean anything at all?  So we have Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis each finding a shell casing.  While the officers were still on the scene, Barbara Davis notified Captain George Doughty (of the crime lab) of a shell casing lying on the ground.  Doughty took possession of the shell.  Then, about four hours later, Virginia Davis finds a shell casing just a few feet from the location of the shell Barbara found earlier.  They call the police and Detectives Dhority and Brown (both of the Homicide & Robbery Bureau) are sent out to collect this shell casing (as well as take the two girls to headquarters to view a lineup).

 

Is it somehow supposed to be suspicious that two teenage girls could not identify shell casings that they had each found lying on the ground months earlier?  To anyone not familiar with firearms and ammo, all shell casings probably look the same.

 

This appears to me like a desperate attempt by DiEugenio to make these two shell casings now in evidence appear to be planted at a later time.

 

"Because of a witness named, Acquilla Clemons who worked as a caretaker about a block away. She heard the shots, run down the street. She said she saw two men at the scene. One was tall and slender. The other one was a short guy and then the tall guy waved at the shooter and told him to go on and they run off in different directions."

 

Here, DiEugenio implies that two men were involved in Tippit's death.  Acquilla Clemons never even hinted that the two men were associates.

 

Secondly, and more importantly, the REAL witnesses who were actually outdoors when the shooting occurred (unlike Clemons) and watched the events unfold (for the most part), people like Jimmy Burt, Bill Smith, Domingo Benavides, Helen Markham and William Scoggins, ALL stated that Tippit encountered just one man.  How could these REAL witnesses (who saw the thing go down) manage to miss a second culprit?

 

"There was also a letter to Playboy Magazine in the January 1968 issue where an anonymous person agreed with Clemons, he had been at the scene of the crime and he saw two men run off in different directions, neither one of them being Oswald."

 

Well, if it's from "anonymous", then it must be true.

 

"Doris Holan was one of these witnesses ... who were at the scene of the Tippit shooting but were never interviewed by the Warren Commission. There isn't even any evidence that she was interviewed by the Dallas Police or the FBI which is really weird because her house, her apartment is on the second floor of a house right across the street from where Tippit was shot and there's a diagram in my article which shows that."

 

No.

 

On 11/22/63, Holan's apartment was on Patton, pretty much halfway down the block between Tenth and Jefferson.

 

Dale Myers did some great work on where Holan lived on the day of the murder:

 

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2020/11/doris-e-holan-and-tippit-murder.html

 

Despite some of the mistaken claims made right here on this forum, from her apartment on Patton, Holan could not see Tippit's parked patrol car on Tenth.

 

"She (Holan) said that as she looked out her second floor window upon hearing the shots, she saw second police car at the scene. It was in the driveway before 404 and 410 East 10th Street. This was adjacent to the spot where Tippit's car stopped. So knowingly or unknowingly Tippit blocked the driveway which led to an alley at the middle of the block behind. She said that a man got out of the car, looked at Tippit's body and went back down the driveway. He was alongside the car which is retreating back towards the alley."

 

Well, since we now know that Holan did not live in the apartment on Tenth directly across the street from the shooting scene, all of this is kind of moot, isn't it?  This is what you get when you cite Mike Brownlow as a source.

 

"No other county in America and almost no state for that matter has freed more innocent people from prison in recent years than Tarrant county which is where Dallas is, where Mr. Wade was a DA from 1951 through 1986."

 

Say what?  Tarrant County is the county to the west of Dallas, encompassing Fort Worth.  Henry Wade was the D.A. for Dallas County from '51 to '87.

 

"Also if you can believe this, he was also at one time a security guard at the Texas Theater which is a place where Oswald was arrested at. Again, maybe that's just a coincidence but I find that kind of interesting."

 

No.  Nothing interesting here.

 

Tippit was never a security guard at the Texas Theater.  He did however once work part-time security at the Stevens Park Theater.

 

 

[Bill Brown]

 

Over 150 views and no disagreements.  I guess we can all agree then that Mr. DiEugenio shouldn't be discussing the Tippit case from a position of authority.

 

[Charles Blackmon]

"Well, if it's from "anonymous", then it must be true."

thats a really lethal popgun!

[Michael Griffith]

On 2/22/2023 at 6:01 AM, Bill Brown said:

Our Hidden History interview with Jim DiEugenio:

https://ourhiddenhistory.org/2018/05/25/james-dieugenio-the-j-d-tippit-murder-case-in-the-new-millennium-an-our-hidden-history-interview.html

"The Warren Commission said that Oswald after the shooting of Kennedy left work, was driven by a taxi to his rooming house in Oak Cliff that he was only at the rooming house for a short period of time that he picked up his revolver and walked outside and went to a corner across the street.

No, not across the street.  Earlene Roberts stated that she saw Oswald standing near the bus stop on the same side of the street as the rooming house.

"Anyway that's the last time the landlady saw him. She said that he was there at about 1:04."

No.  Roberts does not say anything about 1:04.  She testified that Oswald came in "around 1 o'clock, or maybe a little after".  She added that she really wouldn't want to say what time it was that Oswald came in.  She testified that Oswald went back into his room and stayed about "three or four minutes", a figure of speech.  She continues by saying that Oswald was back in his room just long enough to go in there and get a jacket and put it on.  This last part is not a figure of speech; it is a literal description of just how long she felt that Oswald was back in his room.  Oswald was most likely back in his room for no more than sixty seconds because that is all the time it requires to grab a jacket and put it on.  Regardless, she doesn't say anything about 1:04.

"Roger Craig had a watch on. These witnesses placed at the shooting of Tippit much closer to about 1:06 or 1:07."

First of all, Roger Craig (in his manuscript titled When They Kill A President) said that he heard the news of the Tippit shooting from a nearby police radio (while in Dealey Plaza) and he looked at his watch, noting that the time was 1:06.  Neither the Dallas Police tapes nor the Dallas County Sheriff's tapes make any mention of any shooting over in Oak Cliff until we hear from T.F. Bowley at 1:16/1:17 (depending on who you want to use), i.e. there was never any broadcast on the tapes at 1:06 about a police officer getting shot.

Secondly, Craig (along with Penn Jones) was interviewed in 1968 by the L.A. Free Press.  In the interview, Craig was asked what time the Tippit shooting occurred.  His reply was "about 1:40".  Jones immediately corrects Craig, informing Craig that the shooting actually occurred at 1:15.  Craig's reply: "Oh that's right.  The broadcast was put out shortly after 1:15 on Tippit's killer."

1968:  Roger Craig (obviously unaware that he was going to try to sell a manuscript a few years later) believed (until he was corrected by Penn Jones) that the Tippit shooting occurred around 1:40.

1970's:  While trying to sell a manuscript, Roger Craig concocts a story of hearing of the shooting of a police officer in Oak Cliff and looking down at his wristwatch, noting that the time was 1:06.

"Warren Reynolds was also an eyewitness, saw the guy running away from the scene, said he would not commit to identifying Oswald then he was shot through the head and he changed his mind, and now he said he would identify Oswald."

Let's be a little more honest about this.

Warren Reynolds, before he was shot in the head, told the FBI that he was "of the opinion" that the man he saw running with a gun was Lee Oswald, but Reynolds added that he would hesitate to state for a certainty that the man was Oswald.

Why wouldn't Mr. DiEugenio simply quote the actual FBI interview with Reynolds?

"The lineups at Dallas Police Department were very unfair, to say the least... Further, when asked their names and occupations, the other people in the lineup who were policemen gave fictitious answers. Oswald said his real name and said he worked at Texas School Book Depository. What the heck kind of lineup is that? It's just a joke."

There is no evidence whatsoever that Oswald was asked, during any of the lineups, to state his place of employment and that he answered that he worked at the Depository.

"Now, further complicating that, Jerry Hill said he told an officer, JM Poe to mark the shells. His marks were not evident when the policemen inspected the exhibits for the commission."

Poe told the Warren Commission that he couldn't be certain that he ever did mark the shells.

"Further, when the witnesses who found the other two shells were asked by the FBI to identify them as the ones they originally recovered, they could not."

Is this really supposed to mean anything at all?  So we have Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis each finding a shell casing.  While the officers were still on the scene, Barbara Davis notified Captain George Doughty (of the crime lab) of a shell casing lying on the ground.  Doughty took possession of the shell.  Then, about four hours later, Virginia Davis finds a shell casing just a few feet from the location of the shell Barbara found earlier.  They call the police and Detectives Dhority and Brown (both of the Homicide & Robbery Bureau) are sent out to collect this shell casing (as well as take the two girls to headquarters to view a lineup).

Is it somehow supposed to be suspicious that two teenage girls could not identify shell casings that they had each found lying on the ground months earlier?  To anyone not familiar with firearms and ammo, all shell casings probably look the same.

This appears to me like a desperate attempt by DiEugenio to make these two shell casings now in evidence appear to be planted at a later time.

"Because of a witness named, Acquilla Clemons who worked as a caretaker about a block away. She heard the shots, run down the street. She said she saw two men at the scene. One was tall and slender. The other one was a short guy and then the tall guy waved at the shooter and told him to go on and they run off in different directions."

Here, DiEugenio implies that two men were involved in Tippit's death.  Acquilla Clemons never even hinted that the two men were associates.

Secondly, and more importantly, the REAL witnesses who were actually outdoors when the shooting occurred (unlike Clemons) and watched the events unfold (for the most part), people like Jimmy Burt, Bill Smith, Domingo Benavides, Helen Markham and William Scoggins, ALL stated that Tippit encountered just one man.  How could these REAL witnesses (who saw the thing go down) manage to miss a second culprit?

"There was also a letter to Playboy Magazine in the January 1968 issue where an anonymous person agreed with Clemons, he had been at the scene of the crime and he saw two men run off in different directions, neither one of them being Oswald."

Well, if it's from "anonymous", then it must be true.

"Doris Holan was one of these witnesses ... who were at the scene of the Tippit shooting but were never interviewed by the Warren Commission. There isn't even any evidence that she was interviewed by the Dallas Police or the FBI which is really weird because her house, her apartment is on the second floor of a house right across the street from where Tippit was shot and there's a diagram in my article which shows that."

No.

On 11/22/63, Holan's apartment was on Patton, pretty much halfway down the block between Tenth and Jefferson.

Dale Myers did some great work on where Holan lived on the day of the murder:

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2020/11/doris-e-holan-and-tippit-murder.html

Despite some of the mistaken claims made right here on this forum, from her apartment on Patton, Holan could not see Tippit's parked patrol car on Tenth.

"She (Holan) said that as she looked out her second floor window upon hearing the shots, she saw second police car at the scene. It was in the driveway before 404 and 410 East 10th Street. This was adjacent to the spot where Tippit's car stopped. So knowingly or unknowingly Tippit blocked the driveway which led to an alley at the middle of the block behind. She said that a man got out of the car, looked at Tippit's body and went back down the driveway. He was alongside the car which is retreating back towards the alley."

Well, since we now know that Holan did not live in the apartment on Tenth directly across the street from the shooting scene, all of this is kind of moot, isn't it?  This is what you get when you cite Mike Brownlow as a source.

"No other county in America and almost no state for that matter has freed more innocent people from prison in recent years than Tarrant county which is where Dallas is, where Mr. Wade was a DA from 1951 through 1986."

Say what?  Tarrant County is the county to the west of Dallas, encompassing Fort Worth.  Henry Wade was the D.A. for Dallas County from '51 to '87.

"Also if you can believe this, he was also at one time a security guard at the Texas Theater which is a place where Oswald was arrested at. Again, maybe that's just a coincidence but I find that kind of interesting."

No.  Nothing interesting here.

Tippit was never a security guard at the Texas Theater.  He did however once work part-time security at the Stevens Park Theater.

I think some of your arguments are evasive. I think some are lame. I think some are nit-picky. And I think some are valid.

Although Mrs. Roberts did not specify the time of 1:04, her statements certainly support the time of 1:04 for Oswald's departure from the rooming house. The WC had to bend or ignore several facts just to get Oswald to his rooming house by right around 1:00. 

You are brushing aside serious problems with the Tippit shooting eyewitnesses. There is no valid reason to doubt Acquilla Clemons' account or her sincerity. 

You surely know, or certainly should now, that Jim is right about the Dallas police lineups. They were grossly, inexcusably unfair. 

Do you really, really believe that Poe did not mark the shells? Really? Even though Hill told him to be sure to mark them?  And when you note that Poe told the WC that he wasn't certain that he marked the shells, you're leaving out some important information, aren't you? You omitted the fact that Poe also testified that he "believed" he had marked the shells, and that Ball clearly seemed to believe that Poe was actually saying that, yes, he did mark the shells, yet Poe couldn't ID the marks as his. Let's read the relevant exchange:

Mr. BALL. Did you make a mark?
Mr. POE. I can’t swear to it; no, sir. 
Mr. BALL. But there is a mark on two of these? 
Mr. POE. There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I couldn’t swear to it. I couldn’t make them out anymore. 
Mr. BALL. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are--you think it is these two? Q-77 and Q-75? 
Mr. POE. Yes, sir; those two there. 

Perhaps you see nothing suspicious or unusual about the Tippit shooter being abjectly stupid enough to discard his shells at the crime scene in view of witnesses. I do.

Did the Tippit shooter use the same revolver about which the FBI crime lab made wildly conflicting claims? The firing pin was defective and the gun would not shoot vs. the gun fired over 100 bullets without misfiring when tested. 

Yes, later on Roger Craig made some inaccurate statements, and some of them were arguably fabrications. But his initial statements are credible and well supported. Any analysis of Roger Craig must consider what happened to him in the years that followed the assassination, and must also consider the fact that he had excellent record at the time of the shooting.

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Bill Brown]

3 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

I think some of your arguments are evasive. I think some are lame. I think some are nit-picky. And I think some are valid.

Although Mrs. Roberts did not specify the time of 1:04, her statements certainly support the time of 1:04 for Oswald's departure from the rooming house. The WC had to bend or ignore several facts just to get Oswald to his rooming house by right around 1:00. 

You are brushing aside serious problems with the Tippit shooting eyewitnesses. There is no valid reason to doubt Acquilla Clemons' account or her sincerity. 

You surely know, or certainly should now, that Jim is right about the Dallas police lineups. They were grossly, inexcusably unfair. 

Do you really, really believe that Poe did not mark the shells? Really? Even though Hill told him to be sure to mark them?  And when you note that Poe told the WC that he wasn't certain that he marked the shells, you're leaving out some important information, aren't you? You omitted the fact that Poe also testified that he "believed" he had marked the shells, and that Ball clearly seemed to believe that Poe was actually saying that, yes, he did mark the shells, yet Poe couldn't ID the marks as his. Let's read the relevant exchange:

Mr. BALL. Did you make a mark?
Mr. POE. I can’t swear to it; no, sir. 
Mr. BALL. But there is a mark on two of these? 
Mr. POE. There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I couldn’t swear to it. I couldn’t make them out anymore. 
Mr. BALL. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are--you think it is these two? Q-77 and Q-75? 
Mr. POE. Yes, sir; those two there. 

Perhaps you see nothing suspicious or unusual about the Tippit shooter being abjectly stupid enough to discard his shells at the crime scene in view of witnesses. I do.

Did the Tippit shooter use the same revolver about which the FBI crime lab made wildly conflicting claims? The firing pin was defective and the gun would not shoot vs. the gun fired over 100 bullets without misfiring when tested. 

Yes, later on Roger Craig made some inaccurate statements, and some of them were arguably fabrications. But his initial statements are credible and well supported. Any analysis of Roger Craig must consider what happened to him in the years that followed the assassination, and must also consider the fact that he had excellent record at the time of the shooting.

 

 

"Although Mrs. Roberts did not specify the time of 1:04, her statements certainly support the time of 1:04 for Oswald's departure from the rooming house."

 

That is debatable, but setting that aside... It is ridiculous for ANYONE to say that Roberts said Oswald was at the bus stop at "about 1:04".  It is a clear misstatement in an attempt to make one's point seem more valid.  I believe the person who made the claim simply doesn't know the evidence.

 

Roberts never says 1:04 and those who don't know any better (like many of you right here on this forum) might assume it is true because they heard it stated.

 

"The WC had to bend or ignore several facts just to get Oswald to his rooming house by right around 1:00."

 

This simply is not true.

 

The Secret Service and the FBI reconstructed Oswald's steps (with the help of Cecil McWatters and William Whaley) in an attempt the determine the absolute earliest that Oswald could have reached the rooming house.

Based on McWatters' statement of where it was that Oswald boarded the bus (we know Oswald boarded that bus because he had McWatters' specific bus transfer and McWatters said he issued that transfer to only one woman and only one man), Oswald walked about seven blocks east (into the downtown area) after he left the Depository within three minutes of the shooting.

"So I gave her a transfer and opened the door and she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about two blocks (back) asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did.  It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was near Poydras and Lamar Street." -- Cecil McWatters

They concluded, based on what McWatters told them (along with the Secret Service agents and FBI agents walking the route in an average time of six and a half minutes), that Oswald boarded the bus around 12:40 near the intersection of Field St. and Elm St. and then, after being on the bus for no more than four minutes, Oswald got off the bus near Lamar St. and Elm St. (asking for the transfer as he got off the bus).

So now we have Oswald leaving the bus around 12:44.

Oswald then walked three to four short blocks to the Greyhound station where he boarded Whaley's cab.  This has Oswald entering the cab around 12:48.

They then, with Whaley, reconstructed the cab ride from the Greyhound to the intersection of Beckley and Neely (Oswald got out of the cab on Beckley just north of the intersection with Neely).  They concluded (using a stopwatch) that the cab ride took five minutes and thirty seconds.

So now we have Oswald exiting Whaley's cab on Beckley at 12:53-12:54.

Still using the stopwatch, they concluded that it was a five minute and forty-five second walk from the point Oswald exited the cab back to the rooming house.

 

"You are brushing aside serious problems with the Tippit shooting eyewitnesses. There is no valid reason to doubt Acquilla Clemons' account or her sincerity."

 

There are no serious problems with the witnesses.

 

Secondly, Clemons never says the two men were associates so why should anyone else?

 

"Do you really, really believe that Poe did not mark the shells? Really?"

 

Now where exactly did I say that?  I said that Poe told the Commission that he couldn't be certain that he marked the shells.  This is a fact.

 

"Perhaps you see nothing suspicious or unusual about the Tippit shooter being abjectly stupid enough to discard his shells at the crime scene in view of witnesses. I do."

 

Stupid or not, he did exactly that.  Do you care to take a guess as to the number of witnesses who specifically described the killer manually unloading the spent shells and/or throwing them to the ground?  Are you saying it is your belief that the killer did NOT throw the shells down?  I'm not sure what you're saying.

 

"Did the Tippit shooter use the same revolver about which the FBI crime lab made wildly conflicting claims? The firing pin was defective and the gun would not shoot vs. the gun fired over 100 bullets without misfiring when tested."

 

Now where on earth is this claim by the FBI that the firing pin was defective and therefore the gun would not shoot?  You wouldn't be spouting factoids, now would you?  (Now cue Michael Griffith posting an erroneous, baseless newspaper article stating that the firing pin was defective)

 

"Yes, later on Roger Craig made some inaccurate statements, and some of them were arguably fabrications. But his initial statements are credible and well supported. Any analysis of Roger Craig must consider what happened to him in the years that followed the assassination, and must also consider the fact that he had excellent record at the time of the shooting."

 

None of that is related to the flat out lie he told (when trying to sell his manuscript in the 70's), re: hearing of the shooting in Oak Cliff over a nearby police radio and then looking down at his watch, which read 1:06.  A few years earlier, he actually thought the Oak Cliff shooting occurred around 1:40.  Come on, now.

 

There is no way DiEugenio (or anyone else) should mention Roger Craig's name when arguing that the Tippit shooting occurred earlier than the official version.  Perhaps DiEugenio did not know of this 1968 interview with the L.A. Free Press.... which leads me to my main point, DiEugenio should never speak authoritatively on the Tippit case; it only makes him look foolish.

 

[Ron Ege]

19 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

I think some of your arguments are evasive. I think some are lame. I think some are nit-picky. And I think some are valid.

Although Mrs. Roberts did not specify the time of 1:04, her statements certainly support the time of 1:04 for Oswald's departure from the rooming house. The WC had to bend or ignore several facts just to get Oswald to his rooming house by right around 1:00. 

You are brushing aside serious problems with the Tippit shooting eyewitnesses. There is no valid reason to doubt Acquilla Clemons' account or her sincerity. 

You surely know, or certainly should now, that Jim is right about the Dallas police lineups. They were grossly, inexcusably unfair. 

Do you really, really believe that Poe did not mark the shells? Really? Even though Hill told him to be sure to mark them?  And when you note that Poe told the WC that he wasn't certain that he marked the shells, you're leaving out some important information, aren't you? You omitted the fact that Poe also testified that he "believed" he had marked the shells, and that Ball clearly seemed to believe that Poe was actually saying that, yes, he did mark the shells, yet Poe couldn't ID the marks as his. Let's read the relevant exchange:

Mr. BALL. Did you make a mark?
Mr. POE. I can’t swear to it; no, sir. 
Mr. BALL. But there is a mark on two of these? 
Mr. POE. There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I couldn’t swear to it. I couldn’t make them out anymore. 
Mr. BALL. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are--you think it is these two? Q-77 and Q-75? 
Mr. POE. Yes, sir; those two there. 

Perhaps you see nothing suspicious or unusual about the Tippit shooter being abjectly stupid enough to discard his shells at the crime scene in view of witnesses. I do.

Did the Tippit shooter use the same revolver about which the FBI crime lab made wildly conflicting claims? The firing pin was defective and the gun would not shoot vs. the gun fired over 100 bullets without misfiring when tested. 

Yes, later on Roger Craig made some inaccurate statements, and some of them were arguably fabrications. But his initial statements are credible and well supported. Any analysis of Roger Craig must consider what happened to him in the years that followed the assassination, and must also consider the fact that he had excellent record at the time of the shooting.

 

Michael, thanks for your post, and Bill, thank you for yours, which precipitated Michael's.  I have room for thoughts on both sides.

I have read about and researched the JFKA since 1966, but compared to those here, I'm way less than a neophyte in my knowledge thereof.

What has always given me pause, is:

In the beginning, I remember the scenario of the JFKA and the Tippit killing, being initially presented by the press and the authorities as being pretty much simplistically linear:

That is - LHO, ex-marine turned Marxist, bought a mail order pistol and rifle, decided one day to use the rifle to assassinate JFK, escaped from the scene, went to his apartment where he retrieved the pistol, decided to walk to a movie theatre and was stopped by a police officer, killed the officer, continued his walk/trot to the theatre, acted suspiciously in front of a shop, was noticed by the worker who then watched him enter the theatre without paying, police were notified/arrived, and Oswald was quickly captured. 

A couple of days later, whilst being transferred from one jail to another, a Dallas citizen who had earlier decided to save JK from a trial, murdered LHO, was immediately captured, stood trial, was convicted, and died not long after, of cancer in his cell.  Open and shut - done and over with.

I'm always left wondering, instead of the alleged perpetrator having been LHO, should anyone here for example, at the tender age of 24, have been arrested for the crime and then two days later, himself/herself murdered in a jail - if - there would still be, almost sixty years later, the same, forever seemingly lingering doubt over his/her guilt, i.e., - the LN vs CT debate we experience here and elsewhere.

It seems to me, in the case of someone here having been accused but then prevented from ever standing trial, that it would've been extremely improbable that the truth would not have "willed out" very soon, regardless of the absence of a legal conviction, - unless a party/parties decided that the "story" required some complication/confusion/obfuscation, etc., for whatever reason.  Who here, would have anything close to LHO's alleged and/or proven bio - true or concocted?

IOW, who is responsible for turning a seemingly straight forward scenario into a near 60 years' maelstrom of a controversy?

Who has "so severely "muddied the waters?"  

Has it been the press (readership/money), certain government entities (incompetency/corruption/intentional actions to protect reputation/national security), book authors/movie and TV producers (fame/fortune), certain other NGOs with ambitions/causes.  I'm sure the more learned here are able to add others.  Seems its been in combination. 

On their own, LNs and CTs are not to blame for what we still see going on today, a very emphatic, very high spirited, if not a very often palpably heated, protracted debate - relative to the final solution to the who/why/how of the JFKA.

Thoughts on the "culprit(s)" - mostly responsible?

 

 

    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bill Brown]

42 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

Michael, thanks for your post, and Bill, thank you for yours, which precipitated Michael's.  I have room for thoughts on both sides.

I have read about and researched the JFKA since 1966, but compared to those here, I'm way less than a neophyte in my knowledge thereof.

What has always given me pause, is:

In the beginning, I remember the scenario of the JFKA and the Tippit killing, being initially presented by the press and the authorities as being pretty much simplistically linear:

That is - LHO, ex-marine turned Marxist, bought a mail order pistol and rifle, decided one day to use the rifle to assassinate JFK, escaped from the scene, went to his apartment where he retrieved the pistol, decided to walk to a movie theatre and was stopped by a police officer, killed the officer, continued his walk/trot to the theatre, acted suspiciously in front of a shop, was noticed by the worker who then watched him enter the theatre without paying, police were notified/arrived, and Oswald was quickly captured. 

A couple of days later, whilst being transferred from one jail to another, a Dallas citizen who had earlier decided to save JK from a trial, murdered LHO, was immediately captured, stood trial, was convicted, and died not long after, of cancer in his cell.  Open and shut - done and over with.

I'm always left wondering, instead of the alleged perpetrator having been LHO, should anyone here for example, at the tender age of 24, have been arrested for the crime and then two days later, himself/herself murdered in a jail - if - there would still be, almost sixty years later, the same, forever seemingly lingering doubt over his/her guilt, i.e., - the LN vs CT debate we experience here and elsewhere.

It seems to me, in the case of someone here having been accused but then prevented from ever standing trial, that it would've been extremely improbable that the truth would not have "willed out" very soon, regardless of the absence of a legal conviction, - unless a party/parties decided that the "story" required some complication/confusion/obfuscation, etc., for whatever reason.  Who here, would have anything close to LHO's alleged and/or proven bio - true or concocted?

IOW, who is responsible for turning a seemingly straight forward scenario into a near 60 years' maelstrom of a controversy?

Who has "so severely "muddied the waters?"  

Has it been the press (readership/money), certain government entities (incompetency/corruption/intentional actions to protect reputation/national security), book authors/movie and TV producers (fame/fortune), certain other NGOs with ambitions/causes.  I'm sure the more learned here are able to add others.  Seems its been in combination. 

On their own, LNs and CTs are not to blame for what we still see going on today, a very emphatic, very high spirited, if not a very often palpably heated, protracted debate - relative to the final solution to the who/why/how of the JFKA.

Thoughts on the "culprit(s)" - mostly responsible?

 

Thanks for your thoughts, Ron.

 

I think William Manchester said it best:

 

"If you put the murdered President of the United States on one side of a scale and that wretched waif Oswald on the other side, it doesn't balance. You want to add something weightier to Oswald. It would invest the President's death with meaning, endowing him with martyrdom. He would have died for something.  A conspiracy, of course, would do the job nicely."

[Pat Speer]

On 2/24/2023 at 2:02 PM, Bill Brown said:

 

Thanks for your thoughts, Ron.

 

I think William Manchester said it best:

 

"If you put the murdered President of the United States on one side of a scale and that wretched waif Oswald on the other side, it doesn't balance. You want to add something weightier to Oswald. It would invest the President's death with meaning, endowing him with martyrdom. He would have died for something.  A conspiracy, of course, would do the job nicely."

This theory doesn't hold much water, IMO. The circumstances of the shooting had way more to do with it than any mindset. Think about the deaths of MLK, RFK, and John Lennon, and the shootings of Wallace and Reagan. The vast majority of people were satisfied with the official solutions. Not so with JFK.

And there's a reason for his. Because it stinks, stank, stunk. 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Charles Blackmon]

3 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

This theory doesn't hold much water, IMO. The circumstances of the shooting had way more to do with it than any mindset. Think about the deaths of MLK, RFK, and John Lennon, and the shootings of Wallace and Nixon. The vast majority of people were satisfied with the official solutions. Not so with JFK.

And there's a reason for his. Because it stinks, stank, stunk. 

Nixon was shot? You mean Ford or Reagan?

[Ron Bulman]

32 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Nixon was shot? You mean Ford or Reagan?

I'm pretty sure Pat means Reagan, Ford was never shot to my knowledge, though there was an attempt.  Lord knows I've put my foot in my mouth many times over the years, and had it pointed out to me.  Who here can fault Pat for a mistake given his work over the years?  

The thing is he's right.  Nobody discusses, nor is there ever any news to speak of about the assassinations of RFK, MLK, Lennon or Malcom X or the shootings of Wallace and Reagan.  But people still can't dismiss (rightly so) the lone nut on the sixth floor theory as bs, from their government.

The other thing is, every one of the other assassinations and attempts have legitimate fact-based implications or evidence of conspiracy themselves which should have been further investigated.  

[Pamela Brown]

On 2/24/2023 at 5:15 PM, Pat Speer said:

This theory doesn't hold much water, IMO. The circumstances of the shooting had way more to do with it than any mindset. Think about the deaths of MLK, RFK, and John Lennon, and the shootings of Wallace and Nixon. The vast majority of people were satisfied with the official solutions. Not so with JFK.

And there's a reason for his. Because it stinks, stank, stunk. 

Just the same, they all (not Nixon!) may qualify as Murders Most Foul...

https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2022/01/01/was-the-untimely-death-of-john-lennon-another-murder-most-foul/

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Pamela Brown

[David Josephs]

On 2/24/2023 at 12:01 PM, Michael Griffith said:

Mr. BALL. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are--you think it is these two? Q-77 and Q-75? 
Mr. POE. Yes, sir; those two there. 

On 2/24/2023 at 12:01 PM, Michael Griffith said:

Perhaps you see nothing suspicious or unusual about the Tippit shooter being abjectly stupid enough to discard his shells at the crime scene in view of witnesses. I do.

 

FWIW here are the marked shells...   The evidence simply tells us the story of the Conspiracy to implicate Oswald...  for the truth, the Evidence in the WCR is worthless.

 

[Pat Speer]

On 2/24/2023 at 6:54 PM, Charles Blackmon said:

Nixon was shot? You mean Ford or Reagan?

Thanks. I meant Reagan.

[Paul Brancato]

Fwiw the family of Malcolm X is suing the FBI, CIA, NYPD now because the two who had been arrested back then were recently released by a judge - they are innocent of the crime. Also, the family of MLK won a civil suit in the 1990’s against the FBI. So little coverage on that case. I’m not sure about the current one. Has anyone here seen that news anywhere? I wish the Kennedy family would do the same.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Paul Brancato

[Bill Brown]

I am bumping this because a lot of the mistakes that I pointed out in the original post have not been dealt with by the author of those mistakes.