Cliff Varnell Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Michael Crane said: I'm not comfortable with any answer to tell you the truth. If I had a gun to my head...I would say a defective bullet from the manufacturer. * If the conspirators were so comfortable with their "special weapon" they would have left the body alone. I think they were comfortable with a “special weapon” they could pin on the Commies. Oswald survived the afternoon, killing that scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Griffith Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 13 hours ago, Bill Brown said: Typical. "The bullet hit the back but only entered a couple inches in the soft tissue. No, I can't support my silly nonsense but conspiracy authors said it, so..." When are you folks going to deal credibly with the fact that we now know that on the night of the autopsy, the autopsy doctors absolutely, positively knew that the back wound had no exit point? -- Dr. Robert Karnei was a resident surgeon at Bethesda Naval Hospital in 1963 and witnessed the autopsy. In a 1991 recorded interview, Karnei said the autopsy doctors positioned the body in multiple ways to facilitate the probing of the back wound, and that “the men” who saw the probing commented that they could see the end of the finger and then the end of the probe “from inside the empty chest”! He added that the pathologists worked “all night long with the probes” to find the bullet’s path through the body: They did have the body--trying to sit it up and trying to get that probe to go. . . . Q: Why didn't they turn the body over? A: Well, they did. They tried every which way to go ahead, and try to move it around. . . . Q: But this was after the Y incision? A: Yes. The men described being able to see the end of the finger and the probe from inside the empty chest. They were working all night long with probes trying to make out where that bullet was going on the back there. (p. 10) In his 3/10/97 ARRB interview, Karnei said that by around midnight the autopsy doctors "had not found a bullet track through the body, nor had they found an exit wound for the entry in the shoulder" (p. 001476). In his 8/27/77 HSCA interview, Karnei said that he recalled the autopsy doctors "putting the probe in and taking pictures" (p. 5). Karnei was not the only witness who saw pictures taken of the probing, but those pictures were never included in the official collection of the autopsy materials. I think we all know why. Karnei also told the HSCA that he saw "the chest cavity opened and watched the removal of the organs," and that after this he saw Finck "working with a probe and arranging for photographs" (p. 6). This is another reference that indicates photos were taken of the probing. -- James Jenkins, a medical technician who assisted Dr. Boswell during the autopsy, stated in his 8/29/1977 HSCA interview that Dr. James Humes, the chief autopsy pathologist, found that the bullet tract had not "penetrated into the chest" and that Humes had been able to "reach the end of the wound." Jenkins specified that the back wound "was very shallow" and that "it didn't enter the peritoneal cavity [the chest cavity]. He noted that there was quite a “controversy” because the doctors “couldn’t prove the bullet came into the chest cavity” even though they probed the back wound “extensively” (pp. 5, 7, 10-11, 13). Jenkins added that at around the time of the probing "they repeatedly took x-rays of the area” (p. 8 ). For obvious reasons, those x-rays were not included in the official collection of the autopsy materials. In a 1979 filmed interview, Jenkins said the following: Commander Humes put his finger in it, and, you know, said that ... he could probe the bottom of it with his finger. . . . I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe . . . through the pleura. You could actually see where it was making an indentation. . . . It was pushing the skin up. . . . There was no entry into the chest cavity. -- In his 7/16/96 ARRB interview, autopsy photographer John Stringer said that the back wound was probed and that the probe did not come out of the neck: Q: Was the probe put into the neck, or did it come of the neck? A: It was put into the back part. Q: The back of the body. And then did the probe come out the neck? A: No. (p. 73) -- FBI Special Agent Francis O'Neill, who was in the autopsy room during the entire autopsy, revealed in his 9/12/97 ARRB interview that at the end of the autopsy, there was no doubt in anyone's mind that the bullet that was found in Dallas had fallen out of the back wound: There was not the slightest doubt when we left there that the bullet found on the stretcher in Dallas was the bullet which worked its way out through external cardiac massage. And the doctor said, since the body had not been turned over in Dallas, “External cardiac massage was conducted on the president, and the bullet worked its way out." There was not the slightest doubt, not a scintilla of doubt whatsoever, that this is what occurred. In fact, during the latter part of it and when the examination was completed, the doctor says, "Well, that explains it.” Because Jim [Sibert] had gone out, called the laboratory, learned about the bullet, came back in. Because I was closer to the President’s body than I am to you, and you’re only about a foot and a half away or two feet away. And viewing them with the surgical probe and with their fingers, there was absolutely no point of exit and they couldn’t go any further. And that presented a problem, one heck of a problem. And that’s why Jim went out and called. . . . Q: You previously made reference to attempts to probe that wound. Did you ever see any kind of metal object used to probe that wound? A: Yes. They used a metal probe, in addition to their fingers. . . . In the back, they probed it to a point where they could not probe any further. In other words, it did not go any further. (pp. 30-31) O'Neill stated in his 11/8/78 HSCA affidavit that "Humes and Boswell couldn't locate an outlet for the bullet that entered the back." That's when Sibert left to call the FBI lab to see if "any extra bullets existed." He added, "I know for a fact that when the autopsy was complete, there was no doubt in anyone's mind in attendance at the autopsy that the bullet found on the stretcher in Dallas came out of JFK's body," i.e., out of the back wound (p. 000573). O’Neill also offered this gem of an observation: "I do not see how the bullet that entered below the shoulder could have come out the front of the throat" (p. 000575). -- FBI Special Agent James Sibert, who was at the autopsy with O’Neill, echoed O’Neill in his 9/11/97 ARRB interview. Sibert said he called Killion to see if any bullets had been found because the autopsy doctors said the back wound had no exit point: Q: Can you tell me, was the phone call made to Mr. Killion before or after the body was unloaded from the casket? A: Oh, that was after the body was removed; it was on the autopsy table, and the autopsy was in progress. Because the reason I made that call was that the pathologists said, "There’s no exit to this back wound,” and probed it with rubber glove and a chrome probe. (p. 59) Sibert explained more about the probing and the fact that the autopsy doctors--"Finck, in particular"--said they could feel the end of the back wound: But when they raised him up, then they found this back wound. And that’s when they started probing with the rubber glove and the finger, and also with the chrome probe. And that’s just before, of course, I made this call, because they were at a loss to explain what had happened to this bullet. They couldn’t find any bullet. And they said, "There's no exit.” Finck, in particular, said, "There's no exit.” And they said that you could feel it with the end of the finger. I mean, the depth of this wound. (p. 111) -- Dr. John Ebersole, the radiologist at the autopsy, stated in his 3/11/78 testimony to the HSCA’s medical panel that the autopsy doctors determined that the back wound had no exit point: Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger, inasmuch as a complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other areas. An inspection revealed there was no point of exit. The individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets. (p. 57) -- In discussing the probing of the back wound, autopsy doctor J. Thornton Boswell admitted in his 2/26/96 ARRB interview that after they "opened the chest" they could see that "the bullet had not pierced through into the lung cavity but had caused hemorrhage just outside the pleura”: We probed this hole which was in his neck with all sorts of probes and everything, and it was such a small hole, basically, and the muscles were so big and strong and had closed the hole and you couldn't get a finger or a probe through it. But when we opened the chest and we got at—the lung extends up under the clavicle and high just beneath the neck here, and the bullet had not pierced through into the lung cavity but had caused hemorrhage just outside the pleura. (pp. 75-76) In a somewhat confusing mix of describing and theorizing, Dr. Boswell then switched from describing the probing to speculating about a hypothetical path from the back wound that would have resulted in a probe coming out of the throat wound, saying that “if you put a probe in this and got it back through like this, that would come out right at the base of the neck” (p. 76). He had to resort to a hypothetical because he knew that at the autopsy they found the end of the tract and that it ended at the lining of the chest cavity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cummings Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said: When are you folks going to deal credibly with the fact that we now know that on the night of the autopsy, the autopsy doctors absolutely, positively knew that the back wound had no exit point? -- Dr. Robert Karnei was a resident surgeon at Bethesda Naval Hospital in 1963 and witnessed the autopsy. In a 1991 recorded interview, Karnei said the autopsy doctors positioned the body in multiple ways to facilitate the probing of the back wound, and that “the men” who saw the probing commented that they could see the end of the finger and then the end of the probe “from inside the empty chest”! He added that the pathologists worked “all night long with the probes” to find the bullet’s path through the body: They did have the body--trying to sit it up and trying to get that probe to go. . . . Q: Why didn't they turn the body over? A: Well, they did. They tried every which way to go ahead, and try to move it around. . . . Q: But this was after the Y incision? A: Yes. The men described being able to see the end of the finger and the probe from inside the empty chest. They were working all night long with probes trying to make out where that bullet was going on the back there. (p. 10) In his 3/10/97 ARRB interview, Karnei said that by around midnight the autopsy doctors "had not found a bullet track through the body, nor had they found an exit wound for the entry in the shoulder" (p. 001476). In his 8/27/77 HSCA interview, Karnei said that he recalled the autopsy doctors "putting the probe in and taking pictures" (p. 5). Karnei was not the only witness who saw pictures taken of the probing, but those pictures were never included in the official collection of the autopsy materials. I think we all know why. Karnei also told the HSCA that he saw "the chest cavity opened and watched the removal of the organs," and that after this he saw Finck "working with a probe and arranging for photographs" (p. 6). This is another reference that indicates photos were taken of the probing. -- James Jenkins, a medical technician who assisted Dr. Boswell during the autopsy, stated in his 8/29/1977 HSCA interview that Dr. James Humes, the chief autopsy pathologist, found that the bullet tract had not "penetrated into the chest" and that Humes had been able to "reach the end of the wound." Jenkins specified that the back wound "was very shallow" and that "it didn't enter the peritoneal cavity [the chest cavity]. He noted that there was quite a “controversy” because the doctors “couldn’t prove the bullet came into the chest cavity” even though they probed the back wound “extensively” (pp. 5, 7, 10-11, 13). Jenkins added that at around the time of the probing "they repeatedly took x-rays of the area” (p. 8 ). For obvious reasons, those x-rays were not included in the official collection of the autopsy materials. In a 1979 filmed interview, Jenkins said the following: Commander Humes put his finger in it, and, you know, said that ... he could probe the bottom of it with his finger. . . . I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe . . . through the pleura. You could actually see where it was making an indentation. . . . It was pushing the skin up. . . . There was no entry into the chest cavity. -- In his 7/16/96 ARRB interview, autopsy photographer John Stringer said that the back wound was probed and that the probe did not come out of the neck: Q: Was the probe put into the neck, or did it come of the neck? A: It was put into the back part. Q: The back of the body. And then did the probe come out the neck? A: No. (p. 73) -- FBI Special Agent Francis O'Neill, who was in the autopsy room during the entire autopsy, revealed in his 9/12/97 ARRB interview that at the end of the autopsy, there was no doubt in anyone's mind that the bullet that was found in Dallas had fallen out of the back wound: There was not the slightest doubt when we left there that the bullet found on the stretcher in Dallas was the bullet which worked its way out through external cardiac massage. And the doctor said, since the body had not been turned over in Dallas, “External cardiac massage was conducted on the president, and the bullet worked its way out." There was not the slightest doubt, not a scintilla of doubt whatsoever, that this is what occurred. In fact, during the latter part of it and when the examination was completed, the doctor says, "Well, that explains it.” Because Jim [Sibert] had gone out, called the laboratory, learned about the bullet, came back in. Because I was closer to the President’s body than I am to you, and you’re only about a foot and a half away or two feet away. And viewing them with the surgical probe and with their fingers, there was absolutely no point of exit and they couldn’t go any further. And that presented a problem, one heck of a problem. And that’s why Jim went out and called. . . . Q: You previously made reference to attempts to probe that wound. Did you ever see any kind of metal object used to probe that wound? A: Yes. They used a metal probe, in addition to their fingers. . . . In the back, they probed it to a point where they could not probe any further. In other words, it did not go any further. (pp. 30-31) O'Neill stated in his 11/8/78 HSCA affidavit that "Humes and Boswell couldn't locate an outlet for the bullet that entered the back." That's when Sibert left to call the FBI lab to see if "any extra bullets existed." He added, "I know for a fact that when the autopsy was complete, there was no doubt in anyone's mind in attendance at the autopsy that the bullet found on the stretcher in Dallas came out of JFK's body," i.e., out of the back wound (p. 000573). O’Neill also offered this gem of an observation: "I do not see how the bullet that entered below the shoulder could have come out the front of the throat" (p. 000575). -- FBI Special Agent James Sibert, who was at the autopsy with O’Neill, echoed O’Neill in his 9/11/97 ARRB interview. Sibert said he called Killion to see if any bullets had been found because the autopsy doctors said the back wound had no exit point: Q: Can you tell me, was the phone call made to Mr. Killion before or after the body was unloaded from the casket? A: Oh, that was after the body was removed; it was on the autopsy table, and the autopsy was in progress. Because the reason I made that call was that the pathologists said, "There’s no exit to this back wound,” and probed it with rubber glove and a chrome probe. (p. 59) Sibert explained more about the probing and the fact that the autopsy doctors--"Finck, in particular"--said they could feel the end of the back wound: But when they raised him up, then they found this back wound. And that’s when they started probing with the rubber glove and the finger, and also with the chrome probe. And that’s just before, of course, I made this call, because they were at a loss to explain what had happened to this bullet. They couldn’t find any bullet. And they said, "There's no exit.” Finck, in particular, said, "There's no exit.” And they said that you could feel it with the end of the finger. I mean, the depth of this wound. (p. 111) -- Dr. John Ebersole, the radiologist at the autopsy, stated in his 3/11/78 testimony to the HSCA’s medical panel that the autopsy doctors determined that the back wound had no exit point: Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger, inasmuch as a complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other areas. An inspection revealed there was no point of exit. The individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets. (p. 57) -- In discussing the probing of the back wound, autopsy doctor J. Thornton Boswell admitted in his 2/26/96 ARRB interview that after they "opened the chest" they could see that "the bullet had not pierced through into the lung cavity but had caused hemorrhage just outside the pleura”: We probed this hole which was in his neck with all sorts of probes and everything, and it was such a small hole, basically, and the muscles were so big and strong and had closed the hole and you couldn't get a finger or a probe through it. But when we opened the chest and we got at—the lung extends up under the clavicle and high just beneath the neck here, and the bullet had not pierced through into the lung cavity but had caused hemorrhage just outside the pleura. (pp. 75-76) In a somewhat confusing mix of describing and theorizing, Dr. Boswell then switched from describing the probing to speculating about a hypothetical path from the back wound that would have resulted in a probe coming out of the throat wound, saying that “if you put a probe in this and got it back through like this, that would come out right at the base of the neck” (p. 76). He had to resort to a hypothetical because he knew that at the autopsy they found the end of the tract and that it ended at the lining of the chest cavity. I applaud what you've done here Mike. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Michael Griffith said: When are you folks going to deal credibly with the fact that we now know that on the night of the autopsy, the autopsy doctors absolutely, positively knew that the back wound had no exit point? -- Dr. Robert Karnei was a resident surgeon at Bethesda Naval Hospital in 1963 and witnessed the autopsy. In a 1991 recorded interview, Karnei said the autopsy doctors positioned the body in multiple ways to facilitate the probing of the back wound, and that “the men” who saw the probing commented that they could see the end of the finger and then the end of the probe “from inside the empty chest”! He added that the pathologists worked “all night long with the probes” to find the bullet’s path through the body: They did have the body--trying to sit it up and trying to get that probe to go. . . . Q: Why didn't they turn the body over? A: Well, they did. They tried every which way to go ahead, and try to move it around. . . . Q: But this was after the Y incision? A: Yes. The men described being able to see the end of the finger and the probe from inside the empty chest. They were working all night long with probes trying to make out where that bullet was going on the back there. (p. 10) In his 3/10/97 ARRB interview, Karnei said that by around midnight the autopsy doctors "had not found a bullet track through the body, nor had they found an exit wound for the entry in the shoulder" (p. 001476). In his 8/27/77 HSCA interview, Karnei said that he recalled the autopsy doctors "putting the probe in and taking pictures" (p. 5). Karnei was not the only witness who saw pictures taken of the probing, but those pictures were never included in the official collection of the autopsy materials. I think we all know why. Karnei also told the HSCA that he saw "the chest cavity opened and watched the removal of the organs," and that after this he saw Finck "working with a probe and arranging for photographs" (p. 6). This is another reference that indicates photos were taken of the probing. -- James Jenkins, a medical technician who assisted Dr. Boswell during the autopsy, stated in his 8/29/1977 HSCA interview that Dr. James Humes, the chief autopsy pathologist, found that the bullet tract had not "penetrated into the chest" and that Humes had been able to "reach the end of the wound." Jenkins specified that the back wound "was very shallow" and that "it didn't enter the peritoneal cavity [the chest cavity]. He noted that there was quite a “controversy” because the doctors “couldn’t prove the bullet came into the chest cavity” even though they probed the back wound “extensively” (pp. 5, 7, 10-11, 13). Jenkins added that at around the time of the probing "they repeatedly took x-rays of the area” (p. 8 ). For obvious reasons, those x-rays were not included in the official collection of the autopsy materials. In a 1979 filmed interview, Jenkins said the following: Commander Humes put his finger in it, and, you know, said that ... he could probe the bottom of it with his finger. . . . I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe . . . through the pleura. You could actually see where it was making an indentation. . . . It was pushing the skin up. . . . There was no entry into the chest cavity. -- In his 7/16/96 ARRB interview, autopsy photographer John Stringer said that the back wound was probed and that the probe did not come out of the neck: Q: Was the probe put into the neck, or did it come of the neck? A: It was put into the back part. Q: The back of the body. And then did the probe come out the neck? A: No. (p. 73) -- FBI Special Agent Francis O'Neill, who was in the autopsy room during the entire autopsy, revealed in his 9/12/97 ARRB interview that at the end of the autopsy, there was no doubt in anyone's mind that the bullet that was found in Dallas had fallen out of the back wound: There was not the slightest doubt when we left there that the bullet found on the stretcher in Dallas was the bullet which worked its way out through external cardiac massage. And the doctor said, since the body had not been turned over in Dallas, “External cardiac massage was conducted on the president, and the bullet worked its way out." There was not the slightest doubt, not a scintilla of doubt whatsoever, that this is what occurred. In fact, during the latter part of it and when the examination was completed, the doctor says, "Well, that explains it.” Because Jim [Sibert] had gone out, called the laboratory, learned about the bullet, came back in. Because I was closer to the President’s body than I am to you, and you’re only about a foot and a half away or two feet away. And viewing them with the surgical probe and with their fingers, there was absolutely no point of exit and they couldn’t go any further. And that presented a problem, one heck of a problem. And that’s why Jim went out and called. . . . Q: You previously made reference to attempts to probe that wound. Did you ever see any kind of metal object used to probe that wound? A: Yes. They used a metal probe, in addition to their fingers. . . . In the back, they probed it to a point where they could not probe any further. In other words, it did not go any further. (pp. 30-31) O'Neill stated in his 11/8/78 HSCA affidavit that "Humes and Boswell couldn't locate an outlet for the bullet that entered the back." That's when Sibert left to call the FBI lab to see if "any extra bullets existed." He added, "I know for a fact that when the autopsy was complete, there was no doubt in anyone's mind in attendance at the autopsy that the bullet found on the stretcher in Dallas came out of JFK's body," i.e., out of the back wound (p. 000573). O’Neill also offered this gem of an observation: "I do not see how the bullet that entered below the shoulder could have come out the front of the throat" (p. 000575). -- FBI Special Agent James Sibert, who was at the autopsy with O’Neill, echoed O’Neill in his 9/11/97 ARRB interview. Sibert said he called Killion to see if any bullets had been found because the autopsy doctors said the back wound had no exit point: Q: Can you tell me, was the phone call made to Mr. Killion before or after the body was unloaded from the casket? A: Oh, that was after the body was removed; it was on the autopsy table, and the autopsy was in progress. Because the reason I made that call was that the pathologists said, "There’s no exit to this back wound,” and probed it with rubber glove and a chrome probe. (p. 59) Sibert explained more about the probing and the fact that the autopsy doctors--"Finck, in particular"--said they could feel the end of the back wound: But when they raised him up, then they found this back wound. And that’s when they started probing with the rubber glove and the finger, and also with the chrome probe. And that’s just before, of course, I made this call, because they were at a loss to explain what had happened to this bullet. They couldn’t find any bullet. And they said, "There's no exit.” Finck, in particular, said, "There's no exit.” And they said that you could feel it with the end of the finger. I mean, the depth of this wound. (p. 111) -- Dr. John Ebersole, the radiologist at the autopsy, stated in his 3/11/78 testimony to the HSCA’s medical panel that the autopsy doctors determined that the back wound had no exit point: Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger, inasmuch as a complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other areas. An inspection revealed there was no point of exit. The individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets. (p. 57) -- In discussing the probing of the back wound, autopsy doctor J. Thornton Boswell admitted in his 2/26/96 ARRB interview that after they "opened the chest" they could see that "the bullet had not pierced through into the lung cavity but had caused hemorrhage just outside the pleura”: We probed this hole which was in his neck with all sorts of probes and everything, and it was such a small hole, basically, and the muscles were so big and strong and had closed the hole and you couldn't get a finger or a probe through it. But when we opened the chest and we got at—the lung extends up under the clavicle and high just beneath the neck here, and the bullet had not pierced through into the lung cavity but had caused hemorrhage just outside the pleura. (pp. 75-76) In a somewhat confusing mix of describing and theorizing, Dr. Boswell then switched from describing the probing to speculating about a hypothetical path from the back wound that would have resulted in a probe coming out of the throat wound, saying that “if you put a probe in this and got it back through like this, that would come out right at the base of the neck” (p. 76). He had to resort to a hypothetical because he knew that at the autopsy they found the end of the tract and that it ended at the lining of the chest cavity. Some contend JFK's body was altered before the autopsy. Any chance missiles were removed from JFK's body pre-autopsy? Also, does anyone know if this happens, even to experienced pathologists: that a probe cannot find the conclusion or exit of bullet path? Internal organs or muscles close up? Humes and Boswell, of course, should not have been there at the JFK autopsy, while Finck had limited experience in peace-time Germany. In addition, the trio worked under harried and hurried conditions, with orders barked from the gallery and even orders given to terminate certain procedures. Like many others, I find the JFK autopsy of very limited credibility, almost in every regard. Edited June 4, 2023 by Benjamin Cole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Crane Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said: Some contend JFK's body was altered before the autopsy. Your rank says that you are a grand master. Certainly you are aware of the size difference of the head & throat wound while at Parkland & the size when it arrived at Bethesda? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brown Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 On 6/2/2023 at 9:50 PM, Michael Crane said: A high tech weapon for the throat & the back wound? IMHO the bullets were removed prior to autopsy.This work was not completed by Dr Humes or Boswell. James Jenkins was in the autopsy room from 3:00 pm to around 10:00 am.He would have seen Humes remove bullets prior to the 8:00 start time.Same with O'Connor.Jenkins only left the morgue for a short time ( not for the x-rays) I believe the same thing with O'Connor,but he was asked to leave more than Jenkins. Walter Reed is also a possible place for the pre autopsy.Maybe the black hearse came from Walter Reed. No way in hell would the pathologists think that there was a pre autopsy. Humes tried to give us a clue when he blurted out that there was surgery of the head area. When Reed & Robinson seen Humes using the saw,that was DURING the autopsy and not before (they never gave a time) *Mortician Robinson was not an early arrival at Bethesda. Again... In the real world, bullets do not hit soft tissue, penetrate two inches and stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brown Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 On 6/2/2023 at 9:40 PM, Cliff Varnell said: The autopsists thought JFK was hit with a high tech weapon, rounds that wouldn’t show up on x-Ray or in the body. Why isn’t that the most likely scenario? "The autopsists thought JFK was hit with a high tech weapon, rounds that wouldn’t show up on x-Ray or in the body." Pure nonsense. "Humes et al" thought no such thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brown Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 13 hours ago, Michael Griffith said: When are you folks going to deal credibly with the fact that we now know that on the night of the autopsy, the autopsy doctors absolutely, positively knew that the back wound had no exit point? -- Dr. Robert Karnei was a resident surgeon at Bethesda Naval Hospital in 1963 and witnessed the autopsy. In a 1991 recorded interview, Karnei said the autopsy doctors positioned the body in multiple ways to facilitate the probing of the back wound, and that “the men” who saw the probing commented that they could see the end of the finger and then the end of the probe “from inside the empty chest”! He added that the pathologists worked “all night long with the probes” to find the bullet’s path through the body: They did have the body--trying to sit it up and trying to get that probe to go. . . . Q: Why didn't they turn the body over? A: Well, they did. They tried every which way to go ahead, and try to move it around. . . . Q: But this was after the Y incision? A: Yes. The men described being able to see the end of the finger and the probe from inside the empty chest. They were working all night long with probes trying to make out where that bullet was going on the back there. (p. 10) In his 3/10/97 ARRB interview, Karnei said that by around midnight the autopsy doctors "had not found a bullet track through the body, nor had they found an exit wound for the entry in the shoulder" (p. 001476). In his 8/27/77 HSCA interview, Karnei said that he recalled the autopsy doctors "putting the probe in and taking pictures" (p. 5). Karnei was not the only witness who saw pictures taken of the probing, but those pictures were never included in the official collection of the autopsy materials. I think we all know why. Karnei also told the HSCA that he saw "the chest cavity opened and watched the removal of the organs," and that after this he saw Finck "working with a probe and arranging for photographs" (p. 6). This is another reference that indicates photos were taken of the probing. -- James Jenkins, a medical technician who assisted Dr. Boswell during the autopsy, stated in his 8/29/1977 HSCA interview that Dr. James Humes, the chief autopsy pathologist, found that the bullet tract had not "penetrated into the chest" and that Humes had been able to "reach the end of the wound." Jenkins specified that the back wound "was very shallow" and that "it didn't enter the peritoneal cavity [the chest cavity]. He noted that there was quite a “controversy” because the doctors “couldn’t prove the bullet came into the chest cavity” even though they probed the back wound “extensively” (pp. 5, 7, 10-11, 13). Jenkins added that at around the time of the probing "they repeatedly took x-rays of the area” (p. 8 ). For obvious reasons, those x-rays were not included in the official collection of the autopsy materials. In a 1979 filmed interview, Jenkins said the following: Commander Humes put his finger in it, and, you know, said that ... he could probe the bottom of it with his finger. . . . I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe . . . through the pleura. You could actually see where it was making an indentation. . . . It was pushing the skin up. . . . There was no entry into the chest cavity. -- In his 7/16/96 ARRB interview, autopsy photographer John Stringer said that the back wound was probed and that the probe did not come out of the neck: Q: Was the probe put into the neck, or did it come of the neck? A: It was put into the back part. Q: The back of the body. And then did the probe come out the neck? A: No. (p. 73) -- FBI Special Agent Francis O'Neill, who was in the autopsy room during the entire autopsy, revealed in his 9/12/97 ARRB interview that at the end of the autopsy, there was no doubt in anyone's mind that the bullet that was found in Dallas had fallen out of the back wound: There was not the slightest doubt when we left there that the bullet found on the stretcher in Dallas was the bullet which worked its way out through external cardiac massage. And the doctor said, since the body had not been turned over in Dallas, “External cardiac massage was conducted on the president, and the bullet worked its way out." There was not the slightest doubt, not a scintilla of doubt whatsoever, that this is what occurred. In fact, during the latter part of it and when the examination was completed, the doctor says, "Well, that explains it.” Because Jim [Sibert] had gone out, called the laboratory, learned about the bullet, came back in. Because I was closer to the President’s body than I am to you, and you’re only about a foot and a half away or two feet away. And viewing them with the surgical probe and with their fingers, there was absolutely no point of exit and they couldn’t go any further. And that presented a problem, one heck of a problem. And that’s why Jim went out and called. . . . Q: You previously made reference to attempts to probe that wound. Did you ever see any kind of metal object used to probe that wound? A: Yes. They used a metal probe, in addition to their fingers. . . . In the back, they probed it to a point where they could not probe any further. In other words, it did not go any further. (pp. 30-31) O'Neill stated in his 11/8/78 HSCA affidavit that "Humes and Boswell couldn't locate an outlet for the bullet that entered the back." That's when Sibert left to call the FBI lab to see if "any extra bullets existed." He added, "I know for a fact that when the autopsy was complete, there was no doubt in anyone's mind in attendance at the autopsy that the bullet found on the stretcher in Dallas came out of JFK's body," i.e., out of the back wound (p. 000573). O’Neill also offered this gem of an observation: "I do not see how the bullet that entered below the shoulder could have come out the front of the throat" (p. 000575). -- FBI Special Agent James Sibert, who was at the autopsy with O’Neill, echoed O’Neill in his 9/11/97 ARRB interview. Sibert said he called Killion to see if any bullets had been found because the autopsy doctors said the back wound had no exit point: Q: Can you tell me, was the phone call made to Mr. Killion before or after the body was unloaded from the casket? A: Oh, that was after the body was removed; it was on the autopsy table, and the autopsy was in progress. Because the reason I made that call was that the pathologists said, "There’s no exit to this back wound,” and probed it with rubber glove and a chrome probe. (p. 59) Sibert explained more about the probing and the fact that the autopsy doctors--"Finck, in particular"--said they could feel the end of the back wound: But when they raised him up, then they found this back wound. And that’s when they started probing with the rubber glove and the finger, and also with the chrome probe. And that’s just before, of course, I made this call, because they were at a loss to explain what had happened to this bullet. They couldn’t find any bullet. And they said, "There's no exit.” Finck, in particular, said, "There's no exit.” And they said that you could feel it with the end of the finger. I mean, the depth of this wound. (p. 111) -- Dr. John Ebersole, the radiologist at the autopsy, stated in his 3/11/78 testimony to the HSCA’s medical panel that the autopsy doctors determined that the back wound had no exit point: Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger, inasmuch as a complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other areas. An inspection revealed there was no point of exit. The individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets. (p. 57) -- In discussing the probing of the back wound, autopsy doctor J. Thornton Boswell admitted in his 2/26/96 ARRB interview that after they "opened the chest" they could see that "the bullet had not pierced through into the lung cavity but had caused hemorrhage just outside the pleura”: We probed this hole which was in his neck with all sorts of probes and everything, and it was such a small hole, basically, and the muscles were so big and strong and had closed the hole and you couldn't get a finger or a probe through it. But when we opened the chest and we got at—the lung extends up under the clavicle and high just beneath the neck here, and the bullet had not pierced through into the lung cavity but had caused hemorrhage just outside the pleura. (pp. 75-76) In a somewhat confusing mix of describing and theorizing, Dr. Boswell then switched from describing the probing to speculating about a hypothetical path from the back wound that would have resulted in a probe coming out of the throat wound, saying that “if you put a probe in this and got it back through like this, that would come out right at the base of the neck” (p. 76). He had to resort to a hypothetical because he knew that at the autopsy they found the end of the tract and that it ended at the lining of the chest cavity. Are you aware that after the Y incision was made, they were able to find and track the wound through Kennedy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 55 minutes ago, Bill Brown said: Are you aware that after the Y incision was made, they were able to find and track the wound through Kennedy? Bill Brown: please explain this. I am asking earnestly, not rhetorically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Michael Crane said: Your rank says that you are a grand master. Certainly you are aware of the size difference of the head & throat wound while at Parkland & the size when it arrived at Bethesda? MC- Some might say I am slow learner. Also, the JFKA research area is vast, from LHO's time in Russia to the Walker bullet to the Mob and Jack Ruby---I scratched maybe an inch deep. That's why I am asking questions---could a bullet have been extracted from JFK's body pre-autopsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Bartetzko Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said: MC- Some might say I am slow learner. Also, the JFKA research area is vast, from LHO's time in Russia to the Walker bullet to the Mob and Jack Ruby---I scratched maybe an inch deep. That's why I am asking questions---could a bullet have been extracted from JFK's body pre-autopsy. Yes, I think it’s quite possible. Whether that occurred in this instance isn’t clear, but it’s sad to read what went on that night. Here’s a report of contact with a Janie B. Taylor in 1995. https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md45.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Crane Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said: MC- Some might say I am slow learner. Also, the JFKA research area is vast, from LHO's time in Russia to the Walker bullet to the Mob and Jack Ruby---I scratched maybe an inch deep. That's why I am asking questions---could a bullet have been extracted from JFK's body pre-autopsy. Once again, Humes tried to tell us that something was drastically wrong and some f***ery was going on when he blurted out that there was "surgery of the head area" Not only that..but his description of the laceration on JFK's head in the autopsy report.This laceration was so deep (and long) that when described by an actual Dr,it was like his head was hit with an ax. Edited June 4, 2023 by Michael Crane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 5 hours ago, Bill Brown said: Again... In the real world, bullets do not hit soft tissue, penetrate two inches and stop. Jet Energy, Inc. of New Jersey held a patent on exactly that type of weapon until 2022. https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/6e/2c/f1/b7f57725cf38b1/US6705194.pdf <q> EXAMPLE 4 The fluid consists of the medicine to be injected into the tissue of the patient. The ice slug containing the exact amount of the medicine to be injected is expelled from the gun so it penetrates into the patent [sic?] body at a precisely controlled site and the medicine is delivered to a patient. EXAMPLE 5 The invented device is used as a traceless gun, firing lethal or non-lethal bullets. After impacting the surface of the substrate the ice bullet is melted and no traces of the bullet remains. </q> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Bill Brown said: "The autopsists thought JFK was hit with a high tech weapon, rounds that wouldn’t show up on x-Ray or in the body." Pure nonsense. "Humes et al" thought no such thing. Pure what? From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's sworn affidavit for the HSCA: <quote on> Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" [sic] bullet, one which dissolves after contact. <quote off> From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's sworn affidavit for the HSCA: <quote on> The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments completely.... Following discussion among the doctors relating to the back injury, I left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch [sic] Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that would almost completely fragmentize (sic). <quote off> Edited June 4, 2023 by Cliff Varnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cory Santos Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 36 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said: Pure what? From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's sworn affidavit for the HSCA: <quote on> Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" [sic] bullet, one which dissolves after contact. <quote off> From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's sworn affidavit for the HSCA: <quote on> The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments completely.... Following discussion among the doctors relating to the back injury, I left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch [sic] Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that would almost completely fragmentize (sic). <quote off> But Cliff, Brown knows what Humes thought. Lol! Facts smacts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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