CAN WE EXCLUDE BEN-GURION / HIS ISRAELI GOVERNMENT FROM THE JFKA SUSPECTS?

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Oh my goodness. This is embarrassing, bizarre, and ridiculous. You realize that Muslim extremists and terrorists have made this same obscene claim from time to time, right? Congratulations.

The idea that David Ben Gurion, Levi Eshkol, Golda Meir, and the Mossad would have even considered assassinating JFK over Dimona is one of the nuttiest theories ever concocted by the human mind. 

This is the kind of lunacy you get when you embrace the claims made by anti-Semitic nutjobs such as Fletcher Prouty.

People who peddle this nonsense forget that in the 1950s and 1960s, many conservative Republicans--not all, but quite a few--were very cool toward Israel, if not downright anti-Israeli, for a number of reasons, one of them being that Israel was a socialist state run by avowed socialists. If you read Israeli books and newspapers from that period, you'll find out that Israelis were wary of the Republican Party precisely because they were aware of the fact that so many Republicans held a negative view of Israel and questioned the wisdom of supporting Israel.

And how does this nutty theory fit with the evidence from the Lafitte datebook that has the main plotters being former N-a-z-i-s and other fascists? 

 

Did you read my post? Google Otto Skorzeny and Mossad and see what you come up with 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Did you read my post? Google Otto Skorzeny and Mossad and see what you come up with 

Nothing says more about ethics. 

[Paul Brancato]

5 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Did you read my post? Google Otto Skorzeny and Mossad and see what you come up with 

I don’t have a firm position on the Liberty, 9/11, Mossad and jfk. But I do object strongly to Mr. Griffith’s new self appointed role on this forum. Michael - what would look bad is not the diversity of opinions here but too much uniformity. We are relatively free to speak our minds, certainly within the bounds of civil discourse. You have become in my view increasingly annoying. It’s not your differences of opinion, but rather your intolerance. I didn’t see anyone who disagreed with your Vietnam war views, which are out of the mainstream in all but the far right military hardliners, take the position that you were damaging the forum, somehow making us all look wacky. In my mind your point of view on that is totally off base and out of step, but I don’t question your right to say it. Can’t we all agree at least that we support free speech?

 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

Oh, boy. So not only do we have a bunch of 9/11 Truthers in this forum, we also have a pack of anti-Israeli extremists.

The attack on the Liberty was an accident. See the link on my The Case for Israel website:

The Case for Israel (google.com)

The link will take you to a site that presents an exhaustive analysis of the incident and plenty of evidence to support the analysis. 

Holocaust deniers and Muslim terrorists have been accusing Israel of purposely attacking the Liberty for years. Now they've been joined by the Far Left. 

Anyone who says that the Israelis "could not possibly" have mistaken the Liberty for an Egyptian ship has read little or no military history. The annals of military history are full of much worse cases of accidental friendly fire.

While I have done some reading on the Liberty incident and agree it was an accident, I think you are wrong to claim those now using it against Israel are Far Left. Most of the books and articles I have read accusing Israel of deliberately attacking the Liberty knowing it was a U.S. ship were written by people like yourself--conservative military buffs. 

[James DiEugenio]

I don't for five seconds think that Ben Gurion or the Mossad were in on the JFK hit.

But for a long time no one even talked about the dispute between Kennedy and Israel over Dimona and the Palestinian settlement issue.  That included me.

It was not until the dean of archives researchers Malcolm Blunt sent me the documents from the JFK LIbrary that I finally was able to see this firsthand.  There was such a dispute.  I think today that is undeniable and Oliver put it in his film, the long version.  So for the first time the public at large saw it.

Kennedys' foreign policy in the Middle East was both singular and visionary on more than one level.  And this is one of them.

As per the Liberty attack, that is something I am not close to being an expert on.  But there was certainly a cover up about it. And whether or not it was deliberate, that is a question that is open per debate.

[Michael Griffith]

31 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

While I have done some reading on the Liberty incident and agree it was an accident, I think you are wrong to claim those now using it against Israel are Far Left. Most of the books and articles I have read accusing Israel of deliberately attacking the Liberty knowing it was a U.S. ship were written by people like yourself--conservative military buffs. 

Humm, well, that's curious. I've discussed the Liberty case at great length in military forums. The very few conservatives I encountered who claimed the attack was deliberate were on or near the fringe of the spectrum. They were not your average mainstream conservative. It's been a few years since I followed or took part in discussions on the Liberty, but I doubt things have changed much as far as the demographics of who stands where on the issue on the Right, especially given the fact that the overwhelming majority of conservatives are pro-Israeli.

For decades now, the case of the Liberty has been a favorite topic among Holocaust deniers, including the IHR, and among anti-Semitic folks who stop short of Holocaust denial. In recent years, they've been joined by some folks from the Far Left.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Pat Speer]

8 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Humm, well, that's curious. I've discussed the Liberty case at great length in military forums. The very few conservatives I encountered who claimed the attack was deliberate were on or near the fringe of the spectrum. They were not your average mainstream conservative. It's been a few years since I followed or took part in discussions on the Liberty, but I doubt things have changed much as far as the demographics of who stands where on the issue on the Right, especially given the fact that the overwhelming majority of conservatives are pro-Israeli.

For decades now, the case of the Liberty has been a favorite topic among Holocaust deniers, including the IHR, and among anti-Semitic folks who stop short of Holocaust denial. In recent years, they've been joined by some folks from the Far Left.

I think in this case we both could be correct. When I had an interest in this, I went to a college library and pulled out several books on this, and I later picked up a couple from used bookstores. The books were written by military people--one of whom was an officer on the ship. I also came across what I recall to be the Israeli government's internal investigation of the incident. In any event, these materials were all written by military people in the 60's, up to the 80's, I believe. It could very well be that since that time, those continuing to push the conspiracy angle are of a different sort. 

[James DiEugenio]

There are  many books that have been published of late on The LIberty.

And there have been several documentaries also.

To somehow sort those out by political persuasion is, I think, demeaning. Since that sidesteps the whole question of quality of scholarship and also the question of dodging key questions.

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Guest]

7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

There are  many books that have been published of late on The LIberty.

And there have been several documentaries also.

To somehow sort those out by political persuasion is, I think, demeaning. Since that sidesteps the whole question of quality of scholarship and also the question of dodging key questions.

 

 

 

You’re correct. It shows the deep biases that run through individuals. 

[Ron Ecker]

Qui bono? Or things that make you go hmm.

I remember on 9/11 when one of the networks asked Netanyahu what the attacks that day meant for U.S. and Israeli relations, he smiled and said, “It’s very good.”

He is quoted here:

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/its-very-good-recalling-benjamin-netanyahus-words-day-911-attacks

Later he told a university audience, "We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq." He said that the events "swung American public opinion in our favor."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2008/04/16/quotable-netanyahu-says-israel-benefitted-from-911/

BTW the above Foreign Policy article says that bin Laden said “several times” that he ordered the 9/11 attacks. Is this true? I remember one (supposed) instance, and that was a bogus video (“discovered,” as I recall, by U.S. intelligence in late 2001) in which a guy who only resembles bin Laden pretends to be him. You would think that the spooks could do better casting.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Ron Ecker

[Pete Mellor]

15 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

I recall reading that on 11/22 Rabin was actually at Fort Hood, Texas, which his wife, who was in New York City, may have thought was in Dallas. Or she may have had in mind that he had a connecting flight that day (if he did) from Dallas to NYC.

 

Interesting, thanks for that Ron.  My quote on Rabin comes from Michael Collins Piper, who I feel did go very left field at times.

p.s. I noticed you have been away from the Forum recently, good to get your posts again.

[Pete Mellor]

17 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Have you read Jefferson Morley's "The Ghost" ? I would think this would strongly disabuse any rational person of the notion that Israel was involved in Kennedy's assassination.

Jonathan,

Have you read Jefferson Morley's 'C IA & Mossad'?

Quote:-"Angleton, it is fair to say, thought collaboration with Israel was more important than U.S. policy."

[Michael Griffith]

17 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

. . . by people like yourself--conservative military buffs. 

Just to clarify, I am more of an eclectic centrist military buff. Many conservative military buffs do not consider me to be a fellow conservative because of my views on the nuking and fire-bombing of Japan and on the Nanking Massacre. I've been banned from two military history forums for expressing the view that nuking Japan was unnecessary and immoral, that the fire-bombing of Japan was excessive and immoral, that the Chinese markedly exaggerated the death toll of the Nanking Massacre, and that Chinese generals had little moral authority to complain about Nanking given that they killed at least 400,000 of their fellow Chinese when they deliberately breached dikes along the Yellow River to slow a Japanese advance.

These positions are very unpopular with the majority of conservatives, especially regarding the nuking of Japan. Some of the replies I received from conservatives regarding Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the most furious and vituperative I've ever received on any subject.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Guest]

On 5/2/2023 at 4:16 AM, Ron Ecker said:

Qui bono? Or things that make you go hmm.

I remember on 9/11 when one of the networks asked Netanyahu what the attacks that day meant for U.S. and Israeli relations, he smiled and said, “It’s very good.”

He is quoted here:

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/its-very-good-recalling-benjamin-netanyahus-words-day-911-attacks

Later he told a university audience, "We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq." He said that the events "swung American public opinion in our favor."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2008/04/16/quotable-netanyahu-says-israel-benefitted-from-911/

BTW the above Foreign Policy article says that bin Laden said “several times” that he ordered the 9/11 attacks. Is this true? I remember one (supposed) instance, and that was a bogus video (“discovered,” as I recall, by U.S. intelligence in late 2001) in which a guy who only resembles bin Laden pretends to be him. You would think that the spooks could do better casting.

You’ve also got the Israeli’s filming 9/11 and dancing on a roof top, later arrested and deported from the USA. 

[Ron Ecker]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

You’ve also got the Israeli’s filming 9/11 and dancing on a roof top, later arrested and deported from the USA. 

And about two hours before the first tower was hit, two employees of Odigo, an Israeli-owned instant messaging company, received messages, the source unknown, warning of the attack. Odigo's U.S. headquarters was located two blocks from the WTC. (Paul Thompson, The Terror Timeline; Washington Post, 9/28/01.)