Ruby went in the side ANNEX door to kill Oswald

[Nick Bartetzko]

As to the injury to Oswald, a couple of things come to mind… wasn’t Perry surprised by his death and thought they had repaired all the damage and that he was stable post op? Also, there is Lifton’s claim about the intentional injection of air into the IV and the reference to coroner Earl Rose and that discussion. Is there some definitive information that Lifton’s hard drive is definitely recoverable and his work will be produced at some point? I stopped buying JFKA books years ago, but I’d buy this one. 

[David Josephs]

5 hours ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

As to the injury to Oswald, a couple of things come to mind… wasn’t Perry surprised by his death and thought they had repaired all the damage and that he was stable post op? Also, there is Lifton’s claim about the intentional injection of air into the IV and the reference to coroner Earl Rose and that discussion. Is there some definitive information that Lifton’s hard drive is definitely recoverable and his work will be produced at some point? I stopped buying JFKA books years ago, but I’d buy this one. 

According to Mary Ferrell's chronology he arrives at the ER at 11:32 but is not pronounced dead until 1:07.

According to his testimony - and I have no reason to assume he is embellishing anything here - he died on the table after what appears to be some pretty heroic efforts.
Reading thru, Oswald was terribly messed up by the bullet.

I'm not a doctor so I don't know if they could have known by their efforts if air was injected into him at any point...  Maybe one of our members can chime in on that.

DJ

 

Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe the operative procedures employed on Mr. Oswald please?
Dr. PERRY - Yes. From the nature of the trajectory of the wound and the nature of the path of the bullet on the other side it was obvious that it had traversed major vessels, the aorta and vena cava. The aorta and vena cava, the heart area, and then a midline incision was made. A rapid prep with iodine was done, the patient was draped. An incision was carried rapidly into the abdominal cavity at which time we noticed approximately 3 litres of free blood which is an excess of three quarts. This was removed by suction, lap packs and by just moving it out in the form of clots with the hands. It was noted there was considerable bleeding appearing in both the right upper and left upper quadrants of the body. There was a large hematoma retroperitoneally in the midline also, causing the bowels to be pushed forward rather strikingly.
We immediately dissected over the portal vein on the right since it was apparently injured, and placed a vascular occlusive clamp of the Sittinsky type in this area to control the bleeding. Noted an injury to the right kidney and to the lobe of the liver. We also noted there was an injury to the stomach, the pancreas, the spleen. At that point it became apparent that he had indeed struck major vessels, and appeared to be the aorta, so the left colon was reflected very rapidly in order to allow us to enter the space behind the intestines, the retroperitoneal space, and at that point I controlled the bleeding from the aorta by finger pressure below and above this area.
The bullet had knocked the superior mesenteric artery completely off the aorta exposing a large area.
After I had controlled the bleeding Dr. Shires was able to dissect around the area sufficient to allow us to gain control of the aorta, superior artery and the vena cava and the placement of vascular clamps across these vessels in order to stop the hemorrhage.
At this point, he was being given blood and of course, the suitable anesthesia measures which were oxygen under pressure.

 

 

Mr. SPECTER - What was the situation with respect to his respiration at that time?
Dr. PERRY - It was being assisted and controlled, of course, by anesthesiology. This was no problem. We had a tube in place and was breathing for him so he had no problem with respiration. This was completely under control of anesthesia. The blood pressure was controlled and we stopped for a moment to determine how we would best go about repairing the structures and which would have priority, all the bleeding had stopped but, as I recall, the clamping of the aorta at the level of the superior mesenteric artery means, of course, that you must prevent blood from entering the kidneys, and this in itself can be hazardous if extended, and therefore we decided this must be repaired immediately in order to restore blood into the kidneys and the lower portion of the body.
Then Dr. Jenkins informed me and Dr. Shires that his cardiac action was becoming weak, and I don't remember all the details surrounding the medications and the things ,that were done at this particular time, but he developed a backward cardiac failure, his heart slowed abruptly and the blood pressure fell again and it was apparent the tremendous blood loss he had had set the stage for irreversible shock and lack of pumping action from the heart although he was being given massive transfusions, I don't know the exact number, probably he had 10 or 12 units. I believe it is in the record.
At this point when they told me a cardiac arrest had occurred as a result of the hemorrhage and blood loss I took a knife and opened the left chest in the fourth interspace and reached in to massage his heart, and the heart was flabby, and dilated, and apparently contained very little blood.
I began to massage the heart, to maintain it as we infused the blood and was able to obtain a palpable pulse in the carotid vessels going to the. neck and into the head. We were unable to get the heart to go, and it began to fibrillate which is an uncoordinated motion of the muscles of the heart itself and the successive electrical shocks were applied with the defibrillator and to stimulate heart action, and we failed in this and the cardiac pacemaker was sewn in place, and it was handed to me by the thoracic surgery resident, and I sewed it into the heart to artificially induce heart action, this also was without benefit.
We were never able to restore effective heart action and then Dr. Jenkins informed us neurologically he was not responding, that his reflexes were gone, and he felt that he had expired.

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Reading thru, Oswald was terribly messed up by the bullet.

Internal bleeding must have been massive.

And it seemed to me that it was an excruciating delay of time before they finally threw an unconscious Oswald into the back of one of those ridiculously small, tight space and poorly equipped 1963 ambulances compared to ones of today.

And don't forget Dr. Crenshaw's account of LBJ's call to him to allow the ominous Oliver Hardy look-alike man hovering in the back of the surgical room to try to extract a confession from Oswald.

 

[Nick Bartetzko]

11 hours ago, David Josephs said:

According to Mary Ferrell's chronology he arrives at the ER at 11:32 but is not pronounced dead until 1:07.

According to his testimony - and I have no reason to assume he is embellishing anything here - he died on the table after what appears to be some pretty heroic efforts.
Reading thru, Oswald was terribly messed up by the bullet.

I'm not a doctor so I don't know if they could have known by their efforts if air was injected into him at any point...  Maybe one of our members can chime in on that.

DJ

 

Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe the operative procedures employed on Mr. Oswald please?
Dr. PERRY - Yes. From the nature of the trajectory of the wound and the nature of the path of the bullet on the other side it was obvious that it had traversed major vessels, the aorta and vena cava. The aorta and vena cava, the heart area, and then a midline incision was made. A rapid prep with iodine was done, the patient was draped. An incision was carried rapidly into the abdominal cavity at which time we noticed approximately 3 litres of free blood which is an excess of three quarts. This was removed by suction, lap packs and by just moving it out in the form of clots with the hands. It was noted there was considerable bleeding appearing in both the right upper and left upper quadrants of the body. There was a large hematoma retroperitoneally in the midline also, causing the bowels to be pushed forward rather strikingly.
We immediately dissected over the portal vein on the right since it was apparently injured, and placed a vascular occlusive clamp of the Sittinsky type in this area to control the bleeding. Noted an injury to the right kidney and to the lobe of the liver. We also noted there was an injury to the stomach, the pancreas, the spleen. At that point it became apparent that he had indeed struck major vessels, and appeared to be the aorta, so the left colon was reflected very rapidly in order to allow us to enter the space behind the intestines, the retroperitoneal space, and at that point I controlled the bleeding from the aorta by finger pressure below and above this area.
The bullet had knocked the superior mesenteric artery completely off the aorta exposing a large area.
After I had controlled the bleeding Dr. Shires was able to dissect around the area sufficient to allow us to gain control of the aorta, superior artery and the vena cava and the placement of vascular clamps across these vessels in order to stop the hemorrhage.
At this point, he was being given blood and of course, the suitable anesthesia measures which were oxygen under pressure.

 

 

Mr. SPECTER - What was the situation with respect to his respiration at that time?
Dr. PERRY - It was being assisted and controlled, of course, by anesthesiology. This was no problem. We had a tube in place and was breathing for him so he had no problem with respiration. This was completely under control of anesthesia. The blood pressure was controlled and we stopped for a moment to determine how we would best go about repairing the structures and which would have priority, all the bleeding had stopped but, as I recall, the clamping of the aorta at the level of the superior mesenteric artery means, of course, that you must prevent blood from entering the kidneys, and this in itself can be hazardous if extended, and therefore we decided this must be repaired immediately in order to restore blood into the kidneys and the lower portion of the body.
Then Dr. Jenkins informed me and Dr. Shires that his cardiac action was becoming weak, and I don't remember all the details surrounding the medications and the things ,that were done at this particular time, but he developed a backward cardiac failure, his heart slowed abruptly and the blood pressure fell again and it was apparent the tremendous blood loss he had had set the stage for irreversible shock and lack of pumping action from the heart although he was being given massive transfusions, I don't know the exact number, probably he had 10 or 12 units. I believe it is in the record.
At this point when they told me a cardiac arrest had occurred as a result of the hemorrhage and blood loss I took a knife and opened the left chest in the fourth interspace and reached in to massage his heart, and the heart was flabby, and dilated, and apparently contained very little blood.
I began to massage the heart, to maintain it as we infused the blood and was able to obtain a palpable pulse in the carotid vessels going to the. neck and into the head. We were unable to get the heart to go, and it began to fibrillate which is an uncoordinated motion of the muscles of the heart itself and the successive electrical shocks were applied with the defibrillator and to stimulate heart action, and we failed in this and the cardiac pacemaker was sewn in place, and it was handed to me by the thoracic surgery resident, and I sewed it into the heart to artificially induce heart action, this also was without benefit.
We were never able to restore effective heart action and then Dr. Jenkins informed us neurologically he was not responding, that his reflexes were gone, and he felt that he had expired.

Thanks for posting. It’s been a long time since I had read it. I don’t dispute at all how serious the injuries were, rather just what Lifton had mentioned about Perry’s alleged comments and Dr Rose as well.

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

Thanks for posting. It’s been a long time since I had read it. I don’t dispute at all how serious the injuries were, rather just what Lifton had mentioned about Perry’s alleged comments and Dr Rose as well.

My pleasure... just so many areas of the case with the millions of pages and zillions of topics.  I had not even looked at this in the 30 years I've been doing it.  Same with Ruby entering the Annex...

Until you devote a few months to finding and verifying the info on a subject, you never truly know how deep the rabbit hole goes - and this for literally every piece of subject matter involved. 

Exhilaratingly Exhausting  

[Ron Bulman]

On 5/4/2023 at 10:24 PM, David Josephs said:

Thanks for the feedback my friend...

What I found very interesting was how the central question focused solely on "it was inside knowledge that allowed Ruby to be where he needed to be - even though he'd have no idea when exactly they'd bring Oswald down".

It simply never had dawned on most anyone that it had to be the other way around or it could never work.  That was how we approached it from the start.  And then the question of "clearing the path thru the parking area" 15 and 30 mins beforehand.  That assumes Ruby's whereabouts were known well prior to his going to the Western Union.

It also means that somehow Ruby is made aware of the Carlin call at 10:19, and why he asks at 10:30 if they had brought him down yet... as if he'd just run in and shoot him if they said yes, which was not possible.  The alibi call also had to be arranged ahead of time.

Even the HSCA which concludes he entered by the side Annex door is dumbstruck as to how he timed it so perfectly never once thinking that Oswald must have been brought to him when it was known he'd be there - with not a single person seeing him since the procession for Oswald had begun so I'd have to think minds were focused on what was happening.  Croy just stands there knowing the man didn't belong, knowing he was not a member of the press and doing nothing, then lying about what he actually did afterward.

Croy told Griffin that Ruby “ran by me at a pretty good clip, he was gaining momentum." He rushed/ran thru the line of reporters like a fullback. Croy saw film clips of the shooting and said, “the ones that I saw were the ones that I was trying to get the gun from Ruby.”    Griffin, however, had reviewed the film clips of Ruby standing calmly next to Croy seconds before the shooting. Griffin knew that Croy did not try to stop Ruby and did not try to grab Ruby’s gun. The film clips show that when Ruby lunged forward, Croy backed up and disappeared. Griffin knew Croy was lying .

Griffin was focused on the first and only person who said that Ruby gained access to the basement by walking down the Main St. ramp unattended—Sgt. Patrick Dean.
 

Furthermore, no one would be saying anything about CAPT Westbrook wandering around.  We tried to find information about Westbrook for Sat and Sun yet there seems to be a large void in that area.  We found this image and that this WCE neglected to mention there was a passthru there which allowed the higher ups (Curry's office is in the top left corner) to get to court if they needed without going into the main area of the building.

 

I just re read this thread.  I thought you had posted a link to your and John's revision to this.  Something about not posting it at K&K because of his work.  Is this in another thread or am I imagining it?

[Bob Ness]

On 5/4/2023 at 3:53 PM, Michael Crane said:

I was just wondering because I know that the shot was too low for the heart.

Ruby was sweating his ass off until he found out that Oswald was dead.

Once again,I appreciate your help.

@davidjosephs

Abdominal wounds require more specialized treatment to repair the damage and treat any infections or other complications. They're often times the way to go if you want to insure a fatal outcome. When I look at the shooting of Oswald, I automatically think that guy knows what he's doing. That is, he kills his target yet doesn't risk anyone else being wounded. Best to do it at an oblique angle rather than straight on. It's a pro job.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Bob Ness

[David Josephs]

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I just re read this thread.  I thought you had posted a link to your and John's revision to this.  Something about not posting it at K&K because of his work.  Is this in another thread or am I imagining it?

not so much a revision, just that when John and I worked on the document he did the writing based on our discussions, and the images we found, & I did a little editing yet since it was being put up on the harveyandlee site, I told Jim D in another thread that was why I had not sent it to him.

I took our work and created a PPT presentation for my discussion with DPUK which is what you'd see on the zoom which I was spoking over.

There are quite a lot a very good articles at his site some of which I "assisted" him in completing or enhancing.. and many others that are just John's pov.

Not imagining it Ron. 

[David Josephs]

7 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

@davidjosephs

Abdominal wounds require more specialized treatment to repair the damage and treat any infections or other complications. They're often times the way to go if you want to insure a fatal outcome. When I look at the shooting of Oswald, I automatically think that guy knows what he's doing. That is, he kills his target yet doesn't risk anyone else being wounded. Best to do it at an oblique angle rather than straight on. It's a pro job.

Very good point Bob...

A bit different than Tippit, whose stomach wounds might have still killed him, yet the coup de grace final shot to the head while on the ground just screams execution and pro to me...  whoever that was knew he had to insure Tippit would not survive.

I had mentioned the ambulance driver's comments re: Tippit, introduces evidence - like his position at the front left wheel and that Royal blue coat which gives one pause to reflect on these minor details which the different people at the scene recall for us yet doesn't fit in with other witness statements.

The more and more I consider what the FBI/CIA/DPD did to Ozzie, the more I see and understand him as the sacrificial pawn he was.  Very sad how he was played and then removed as it was deemed necessary to the success of the mission.