Case Closed: 30 Years on-Even Worse

[Joe Bauer]

On 5/14/2023 at 4:17 PM, James DiEugenio said:

In my view, if Carlos was alive and i was running the trial, he would be my last witness. Oswald would be acquitted and I would buy Hathcock a filet mignon and a bottle of wine of his choice, but not Dom Perignon.  Only if Oliver was there to pick up the tab on that one.

HA!

The best I could offer Hathcock would be a Denny's Senior Menu country fried steak dinner ... with a chocolate shake?

If he demanded champagne the most I could afford would be "Cooks."

$5 to $10 a bottle. Light colored cooking wine with added carbonation.

And by the way...very curious:

What tasty gourmet dishes did you all order at that fancy-schmancy restaurant you, Stone and Mamet dined at together?

I once dined at Spagos...as well as the Polo Lounge at the Beverly Hills hotel.

Fellow diners at Spago's included Sidney Portier and Zsa Zsa Gabor.

At the Beverly Hills hotel sat next to Max Factor himself. As well as a birthday celebration for Joseph Cotton with Cornell Wilde giving a well wishing toast speech.

Now-a-days my gourmet dining splurge is a 7-11 hotdog and slurpy.

Times are tough here in out-of-this-world rent, gas and food cost California.

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Michael Griffith]

Some of Posner's arguments are downright zany. For example, he argues that the sixth-floor gunman fired his first shot at around Z160 and missed not only JFK but the entire gigantic limousine. Indeed, per Posner, this shot was so far off the mark that it missed the limo badly enough to hit a branch of the oak tree. To make matters worse, Posner claims that this wild miss was the shot that sent a lead core streaking toward the Tague curb and sent a chip flying toward Tague to cut his face (Case Closed, first edition pp. 320-326).

I discuss some of the other problems with this fanciful scenario in my online book Hasty Judgment:

          To account for the wounding of Tague, Posner offers some downright fanciful speculation. According to Posner, the first bullet struck a limb of the oak tree, after which its lead core instantly separated from the metal jacketing and traveled in a straight line from the TSBD to the curb over 400 feet away, somehow landing with enough force to send concrete fragments streaking toward Tague! This is surely far-fetched. Even if we assume the lead core instantly shed its copper jacketing after the supposed tree-branch collision, would the core have had sufficient force over 400 feet later to send concrete flying fast enough to cut Tague's face? And how could Oswald, the alleged world-class marksman, have missed his target so badly that he hit a branch of the oak tree? How could he have aimed so poorly on his first shot when the first shot is usually the most accurate?

          For Posner's theory even to be possible, we would have to believe that the bullet struck the limb at a point where the limb was strong enough not to snap or bend from the force of the missile's impact. This means the bullet would have had to strike the limb at least a foot or two from its tip, which would have been a mind-boggling miss from the sniper's nest.

          It is worth pausing to note a glaring contradiction in Posner's scenario. According to Posner, when the first fully metal-jacketed Carcano missile struck a tree limb, this caused the lead core to separate from the copper jacketing. But, the next Carcano bullet supposedly transited Kennedy's neck, plowed through Connally's back, broke a rib bone and a hard wrist bone, and then penetrated the Governor's thigh, yet emerged in nearly perfect condition, with its lands and grooves intact, with no damage to its nose, and with no more than 4 grains lost from its substance.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[James DiEugenio]

Joe:

That restaurant was in Brentwood and is a really nice place.  

I think I had the sea bass.  I don't recall what Mamet or Oliver had.  But even the Maitre'd came up to our table, and this was the afternoon, not evening.

But the best story about a fancy restaurant that I have was my lunch with Rob Reiner.  

This was about five doors down from the place with Mamet and Oliver in Brentwood.  This one did not even have a street sign on it.  All it had was a little sign on the outside wall which was so small I missed it.  

Anyway, they parked my car for me before I went in.  Then when I came out, they had my car ready for me.  I asked the guy, "How did you know I was going to be coming out?"  He said the waiter radios out the seat number which is linked to a name.

Sort of like Denny's eh?

[James DiEugenio]

Mike:

Yes that is one of the most bizarre parts of Posner's bizarre book.

The idea that, by hitting a twig on a tree, that this would strip away the copper jacket on a WCC bullet, that is pure fantasy.

Anyone who has seen one of those bullets, as I have, would realize this is simply BS.

And as you noted, not only is the stripping away nutty, but so is the idea that any shooter would miss by that much.

And, by the way, Bugliosi had a truly wild solution to the Tague hit also: the fact there was no copper found by the FBI where it struck is a problem.  This indicates another type of ammo was used.  But these guys cannot admit that.

Bugliosi said that the bullet was rotating and that it skidded along the street and this action is what stripped the copper from the lead core, and then it bounced up slightly to hit the curb, and then bounced up to hit Tague.

When I read that, I said something like:  Holy crapola, VInce topped the Poz for pure fantasy!

Edited May 16, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Adam Johnson]

Whilst i believe Posner is and Bugliosi was a paid CIA asset, there are a couple of credible factors for the possibility of a shot around Z158- Z160.

The two major ones for me are the splice appearing in the Z film at that time and Rosemary Wiĺis ending her happy run/chase of the limo, stopping in her tracks and looking backwards and upwards towards the high floors of the TSBD or the Daltex building.

It also would be a shot that completely missed the Presidential limousine because we see no reaction within the vehicle. Where that shot ended up i cant say with any certainty.

However if there was a faked assassination attempt plot/operation taking place that day the first and possibly only shot taken you would think it would be aimed and fired high and wide of the limo making sure no body was hurt.

Perhaps you might aim at the manhole cover across the street and further down Elm Street then the limousines position to ensure you guaranteed a miss on the limo occupants. 

 

A.J

[Joe Bauer]

19 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Joe:

That restaurant was in Brentwood and is a really nice place.  

I think I had the sea bass.  I don't recall what Mamet or Oliver had.  But even the Maitre'd came up to our table, and this was the afternoon, not evening.

But the best story about a fancy restaurant that I have was my lunch with Rob Reiner.  

This was about five doors down from the place with Mamet and Oliver in Brentwood.  This one did not even have a street sign on it.  All it had was a little sign on the outside wall which was so small I missed it.  

Anyway, they parked my car for me before I went in.  Then when I came out, they had my car ready for me.  I asked the guy, "How did you know I was going to be coming out?"  He said the waiter radios out the seat number which is linked to a name.

Sort of like Denny's eh?

Sea bass is one of my top 3 main course choices for the ultimate high end dining out experience.

All the fancy restaurant dining I experienced was always due to the generosity of others.

The ones I mentioned earlier happened long ago in 1985.

Last 20 years it's been back to my regular low manual labor income lifestyle.

Yesterday for instance my main meal was a $3 Jack In The Box value meal Jr. hamburger.

An indulgence I admit. I allowed myself this due to my wife's visiting relatives out of town.

I'm a big "Banquet" frozen dinner gourmand now. Their Mac And Cheese is excellent.

Our California monthly rent cost leaves us in a barely getting by lifestyle now.

Not complaining or crying about our situation. It's far too common for millions of us retired Americans. Still get to live in one of the most ideal locations in the country. The beautiful coastal shoreline is always just 10 minutes away.

Getting back to Mamet. 

Hope he brings his usual gritty dialogue magic to this new flick, even if it is a red herring JFKA story line imo.

 

 

[Michael Griffith]

18 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Whilst i believe Posner is and Bugliosi was a paid CIA asset, there are a couple of credible factors for the possibility of a shot around Z158- Z160.

The two major ones for me are the splice appearing in the Z film at that time and Rosemary Wiĺis ending her happy run/chase of the limo, stopping in her tracks and looking backwards and upwards towards the high floors of the TSBD or the Daltex building.

It also would be a shot that completely missed the Presidential limousine because we see no reaction within the vehicle. Where that shot ended up i cant say with any certainty.

Oh, I have no problem with a shot at around Z160. I agree there is good evidence that a shot was fired at that time. I just don't think it came from the TSBD. A shot fired from a lower floor of the Dal-Tex Building could have narrowly missed JFK and also missed the limousine. 

And the idea that a Z160 shot from the sixth-floor sniper's nest could have caused the Tague wounding is the stuff of comical fantasy. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[James DiEugenio]

Joe:

Mamet is known for his dialogue, ever since the start of his screenwriting career with The Verdict. 

The scene where Newman/Galvin goes into his client's room in the hospital, starts taking pictures, and then freezes up, stops and sits down, and the nurse comes in.

Nurse: Sir, you aren't supposed to be here.

Galvin: I'm her attorney.

Key scene in the film, which changes all the action, and Mamet got it with two sentences.

BTW, Robert Redford was going to do the Galvin part at first, but he wanted to change the character too much, and had his own writer, Jay Presson Allen, wanted to bring in his own director. He also did not want to play a broken down alcoholic.  So he left, and they brought in Newman to play Galvin.

IMO, Newman hit a home run in that part.

Edited May 17, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Adam and Mike:

In my opinion, Pat Speer has the best analysis of Bugliosi's so called early shot at 160, which he borrowed from Posner.

You should both read it.

Concerning Willis, this originates with Cecil Kirk of both the WC and the HSCA photography team.  The following is summarized from my book, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today:  In a good copy of the Z film, it is clear that WIllis is running and looking at that direction from the start in the Z frames 140 or so.  She starts to slow down before frame 190. Which is too late for Kirk's agenda. And when she looks back, she is looking at the west end of the TSBD. Which is the opposite window from the so called sniper's nest. She then twists her head further onto the stockade fence atop the knoll. (p. 60)

This gets even worse about Kirk and the tale of the two sisters but I will leave it at that.

 

 

[Jean Ceulemans]

On 5/16/2023 at 8:16 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Mike:

Yes that is one of the most bizarre parts of Posner's bizarre book.

The idea that, by hitting a twig on a tree, that this would strip away the copper jacket on a WCC bullet, that is pure fantasy.

Anyone who has seen one of those bullets, as I have, would realize this is simply BS.

And as you noted, not only is the stripping away nutty, but so is the idea that any shooter would miss by that much.

And, by the way, Bugliosi had a truly wild solution to the Tague hit also: the fact there was no copper found by the FBI where it struck is a problem.  This indicates another type of ammo was used.  But these guys cannot admit that.

Bugliosi said that the bullet was rotating and that it skidded along the street and this action is what stripped the copper from the lead core, and then it bounced up slightly to hit the curb, and then bounced up to hit Tague.

When I read that, I said something like:  Holy crapola, VInce topped the Poz for pure fantasy!

An Italian collector send me this, apparently the 6.5 MC exists in many types (jacketed in different metals, brass-like, copper, pure lead,....).  I didn't know there were so many different out there.

I do not know what was still available in 1963.  I was told the ones on the picture are mostly WWII, they were found and cleaned.  And the reason was that during war there sometimes was a shortage of copper, so they had to use other metals (or alloy's or just lead).

I know this won't help directly but we don't even know where LHO (oops... the sniper !) got his ammo ???  Anything is possible I guess...  But you are  correct, a bullet will not simply loose it's jacket (if any...) in hitting a tree. 

He's sending me this stuff, so more later (if interesting).  PS : the ones on the left are not live-ammo, they have a through and through hole near the bottom and the content is blown out.  The loose bullets (they have been fired it seems, have a sort of belly (a little compressed in lenght)

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Benjamin Cole]

15 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

An Italian collector send me this, apparently the 6.5 MC exists in many types (jacketed in different metals, brass-like, copper, pure lead,....).  I didn't know there were so many different out there.

I do not know what was still available in 1963.  I was told the ones on the picture are mostly WWII, they were found and cleaned.  And the reason was that during war there sometimes was a shortage of copper, so they had to use other metals (or alloy's or just lead).

I know this won't help directly but we don't even know where LHO (oops... the sniper !) got his ammo ???  Anything is possible I guess...  But you are  correct, a bullet will not simply loose it's jacket (if any...) in hitting a tree. 

He's sending me this stuff, so more later (if interesting).  PS : the ones on the left are not live-ammo, they have a through and through hole near the bottom and the content is blown out.  The loose bullets (they have been fired it seems, have a sort of belly (a little compressed in lenght)

Great shots of bullets, pun intended. 

In fact, there were some steel-jacketed 6.50 bullets manufactured in Europe, as you said, due to wartime copper shortages. 

In the US, the Western Cartridge 6.50 copper-jacketed bullet (used in Mannlicher Carcanos) is the only one I have ever heard of. Curiously, the CIA ordered a couple million rounds of the copper-jacketed 6.50s, and no one knows why. 

The steel-jacketed bullet remained a rarity in the US, through the 1960s and even to the present day, and remains barred at many shooting ranges and hunting areas, as the steel jackets can cause sparking and fires. 

The US military has generally eschewed steel-jacketed bullets (aside from WWII), which are known for rusting and jamming equipment, and wearing down rifle barrel (insides). Eastern European nations sometimes use steel-jackets in military applications to lower costs, and they paint or lacquer the bullets. 

In the US, the relatively rare steel-jacketed bullets in domestic markets, or military surplus, were normally copper-gilded or coated. The copper gilding protected the barrel insides, as the copper was softer than steel.