Walker Bullet Article in KennedysandKing

[Mark Ulrik]

10 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Chief Curry may have asked, in memo form of the FBI, if the JFKA bullets were steel-jacketed. 

That is something to look for, as long as you have your sub. 

Now, why would you send me on a wild-goose chase like that? I'll give you 1000-1 odds that such a memo doesn't exist and never did.

[Benjamin Cole]

14 minutes ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Now, why would you send me on a wild-goose chase like that? I'll give you 1000-1 odds that such a memo doesn't exist and never did.

That's what Chief Curry told the AP, Nov. 29.  He said he thought JFK had been assassinated with a steel-jacketed bullet and he was seeking to have that confirmed.

As the FBI had the JFKA bullets but had them under wraps...it makes sense Curry might have sent a letter or memo to the FBI. But, Curry might have just asked informally, of local FBI guys or on the telephone. 

I wouldn't say it was a wild goose chase. Maybe a middling long-shot. 

[Benjamin Cole]

32 minutes ago, Mark Ulrik said:

You're reading an awful lot into "alleged" without even knowing if Sullivan used that word. We only have SA Loeffler's summary of the call:

Now, I might personally have structured the sentence a little differently ("... the bullet alleged to ..."), but it sounds like pretty neutral, guarded language to me. The remainder of the memo reflects that they were scrambling for detailed information on the Walker shooting since there was nothing in their Dallas files. It's pure speculation on your part that they had any doubts about the legitimacy of the bullet.

I would not say pure speculation.

After all, the DPD reports unequivocally ID'ed the Walker Bullet as steel-jacketed, and the FBI reports on Norvell, McElroy and Tucker are a spaghetti of illogical non sequiturs.

Norvell found the bullet, but McElroy found the bullet. That's according to the FBI reports. 

A FBI guy might start to have some reservations about the Walker Bullet. You think? 

 

 

[Mark Ulrik]

3 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

That's what Chief Curry told the AP, Nov. 29.  He said he thought JFK had been assassinated with a steel-jacketed bullet and he was seeking to have that confirmed.

As the FBI had the JFKA bullets but had them under wraps...it makes sense Curry might have sent a letter or memo to the FBI. But, Curry might have just asked informally, of local FBI guys or on the telephone. 

I wouldn't say it was a wild goose chase. Maybe a middling long-shot. 

I was the one who originally posted the newspaper clipping that you keep misinterpreting.

[Mark Ulrik]

9 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I would not say pure speculation.

After all, the DPD reports unequivocally ID'ed the Walker Bullet as steel-jacketed, and the FBI reports on Norvell, McElroy and Tucker are a spaghetti of illogical non sequiturs.

Norvell found the bullet, but McElroy found the bullet. That's according to the FBI reports. 

A FBI guy might start to have some reservations about the Walker Bullet. You think?

Sullivan was aware of those things at 3:10 AM on 12/4/63? You're not being realistic.

[Steve Roe]

Ben, yes everyone knows you believe there was a bullet switcheroo. I asked your writing partner, Tom, if he believed in the bullet swap out. He refused to give a direct answer. He's hedging, not committed to saying the CE573 was not the Walker bullet. Seems you guys have a big problem here, if you both can't agree whether or not CE573 was planted or swapped out. 

Ben, who do we believe here? You or Tom?

Why can't you guys get on the same page? Anyone reading this article will firmly get the impression that dark sinister forces swapped out the bullet. That's the message.

[Lawrence Schnapf]

@Steve Roe  I will give you my opinion. Once Oswald was murdered and there would be no trial. the guardrails were removed on the need to maintain chain of custody. Evidence could now be manipulated because there would be no evidentiary challenges, no cross-examination and no judicial instructions to jurors on how much weigh to apply to evidence with reliability or authenticacy questions. And government expert witnesses were only subject to soft ball questions and leading questions without any objections from defense counsel. 

The WC was concerned about the Walker shooting. Rainkin asked Hoover to perform a supplemental investigation after Hoover had already concluded that oswald was the lone gunman. There was no way that his FBI was going to develop any evidence that indicate that Hoover was wrong.

The Walker bullet was in the custody of the Parkland lab for several months. There was ample opportunity for someone to substitute  a copper-jacked bullet for a silve-jacketed bullet.

And perhaps you have seen Rainkin's memo instructing that chain of custody did not have to go back to the first person who handled the bullet for purposes of establishing its provenance.

There is overwhelming evidence that the bullet recovered from the Walker residence was a 30.06 silver-jacketed bullet. The onlt evidence to the contrary is a photograph.  A switch cannot be discounted given the high stakes and unsecure manner in which this piece of  evidence was maintained. 

I hope your article will  approach the caliber of your rifle strap analysis and not your other work where all of your inferences favor or are viewed through the lens of one gunman advocate.         

[Tom Gram]

4 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Ben, yes everyone knows you believe there was a bullet switcheroo. I asked your writing partner, Tom, if he believed in the bullet swap out. He refused to give a direct answer. He's hedging, not committed to saying the CE573 was not the Walker bullet. Seems you guys have a big problem here, if you both can't agree whether or not CE573 was planted or swapped out. 

Ben, who do we believe here? You or Tom?

Why can't you guys get on the same page? Anyone reading this article will firmly get the impression that dark sinister forces swapped out the bullet. That's the message.

That’s because not everything is black and white, Steve. My genuine opinion is that the evidence is far too ambiguous to say with certainty whether or not CE573 is the same bullet that was recovered from Walker’s home. Jeremy Gunn was asked his opinion on the JFKA in a talk in 2013, and he responded with “60% Oswald did it, 40% something else”. Why can’t people have opinions like that? Is it really reasonable to expect everyone to go either full Posner or full Fetzer on every single aspect of the case?

Ben and I do not agree on everything, nor do we have to. The point is that the record proves beyond a reasonable doubt that there is, in fact, a reasonable doubt. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Ben, yes everyone knows you believe there was a bullet switcheroo. I asked your writing partner, Tom, if he believed in the bullet swap out. He refused to give a direct answer. He's hedging, not committed to saying the CE573 was not the Walker bullet. Seems you guys have a big problem here, if you both can't agree whether or not CE573 was planted or swapped out. 

Ben, who do we believe here? You or Tom?

Why can't you guys get on the same page? Anyone reading this article will firmly get the impression that dark sinister forces swapped out the bullet. That's the message.

SR-

At this late date, with all participants and witnesses deceased, unfortunately I (or likely anyone else) cannot prove or disprove the true Walker Bullet is CE573. 

If the authenticity of Walker Bullet was necessary to convicting someone of murder, I could not convict. I have reasonable doubts about the authenticity of CE573.

On the other hand, if an FBI agent was going to be sent to prison for 20 years for fabricating CE573, again I would be loath to convict. I have an element of doubt. 

I would give you 10-to-one odds CE573 is not the true Walker Bullet.  

I am surprised you are so certain.

I can see why you suspect LHO in the Walker shooting. So do I, for that matter. The Walker home photographs and the Walker letter are pointers. 

By Nov. 23, people in Dallas suspected LHO of the Walker shooting. 

However, the mechanics of April 10, 1963 are beyond knowing. 

Did LHO have confederates? The two autos that left suddenly that evening---a ride for LHO? 

The steel-jacketed bullet, ID'ed and marked that night by four different DPD officers. 

The odd manner in which the Walker Bullet placed itself between bundles of paper. When one bundle was lifted up, there was the Walker Bullet. Really?

I have been accused of speculating about the Walker Bullet.

But the whole WC view on what happened April 10 is speculation too. There is nothing in the Walker home photos or Walker letter that refutes the possibility of confederates, or the use of non-MC rifle. 

Indeed, what evidence we have---the DPD reports---points to a non-MC rifle and the aid of confederates in the Walker shooting. 

But that is why there is an EF-JFK. To see how other people view certain situations. 

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

@Steve Roe  I will give you my opinion. Once Oswald was murdered and there would be no trial. the guardrails were removed on the need to maintain chain of custody. Evidence could now be manipulated because there would be no evidentiary challenges, no cross-examination and no judicial instructions to jurors on how much weigh to apply to evidence with reliability or authenticacy questions. And government expert witnesses were only subject to soft ball questions and leading questions without any objections from defense counsel. 

The WC was concerned about the Walker shooting. Rainkin asked Hoover to perform a supplemental investigation after Hoover had already concluded that oswald was the lone gunman. There was no way that his FBI was going to develop any evidence that indicate that Hoover was wrong.

The Walker bullet was in the custody of the Parkland lab for several months. There was ample opportunity for someone to substitute  a copper-jacked bullet for a silve-jacketed bullet.

And perhaps you have seen Rainkin's memo instructing that chain of custody did not have to go back to the first person who handled the bullet for purposes of establishing its provenance.

There is overwhelming evidence that the bullet recovered from the Walker residence was a 30.06 silver-jacketed bullet. The onlt evidence to the contrary is a photograph.  A switch cannot be discounted given the high stakes and unsecure manner in which this piece of  evidence was maintained. 

I hope your article will  approach the caliber of your rifle strap analysis and not your other work where all of your inferences favor or are viewed through the lens of one gunman advocate.         

LS--

Steel-jacketed bullet! Not silver jacket!  LHO was trying scare Walker, not a werewolf. 

What "contrary" photograph? There are no photographs of the true Walker Bullet. The DPD did not take any, or if they did, they have disappeared.  

We have photos of CE573. 

Likewise, there are no DPD lab reports to indicate whether the Walker Bullet was steel- or copper-jacketed. 

 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

@Benjamin Cole hysterical!!  i meant the only evidence supporting the official position is the CE573.  

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

SR-

At this late date, with all participants and witnesses deceased, unfortunately I (or likely anyone else) cannot prove or disprove the true Walker Bullet is CE573. 

If the authenticity of Walker Bullet was necessary to convicting someone of murder, I could not convict. I have reasonable doubts about the authenticity of CE573.

On the other hand, if an FBI agent was going to be sent to prison for 20 years for fabricating CE573, again I would be loath to convict. I have an element of doubt. 

I would give you 10-to-one odds CE573 is not the true Walker Bullet.  

I am surprised you are so certain.

I can see why you suspect LHO in the Walker shooting. So do I, for that matter. The Walker home photographs and the Walker letter are pointers. 

By Nov. 23, people in Dallas suspected LHO of the Walker shooting. 

However, the mechanics of April 10, 1963 are beyond knowing. 

Did LHO have confederates? The two autos that left suddenly that evening---a ride for LHO? 

The steel-jacketed bullet, ID'ed and marked that night by four different DPD officers. 

The odd manner in which the Walker Bullet placed itself between bundles of paper. When one bundle was lifted up, there was the Walker Bullet. Really?

I have been accused of speculating about the Walker Bullet.

But the whole WC view on what happened April 10 is speculation too. There is nothing in the Walker home photos or Walker letter that refutes the possibility of confederates, or the use of non-MC rifle. 

Indeed, what evidence we have---the DPD reports---points to a non-MC rifle and the aid of confederates in the Walker shooting. 

But that is why there is an EF-JFK. To see how other people view certain situations. 

 

Indisputable. I don't know what the problem is. It's an objective fact the bullet was misidentified if it was actually CE573. End of story. This error is so simple and elementary it's on a par with the DPD not having sufficient knowledge to close a door.

[James DiEugenio]

Every time I read this, my eyebrows arch:

The odd manner in which the Walker Bullet placed itself between bundles of paper. When one bundle was lifted up, there was the Walker Bullet. Really?

Edited May 28, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Benjamin Cole]

10 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Every time I read this, my eyebrows arch:

The odd manner in which the Walker Bullet placed itself between bundles of paper. When one bundle was lifted up, there was the Walker Bullet. Really?

I didn't have it in the article but....LHO had General Walker's home phone number in his address book. 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Oswald had a lot of strange people's names and/ or addresses in his book.

Some writer once did a study of the names.

Really something how he got on to all of those people.  Many of whom he did not know.

Makes you wonder who was playing who?