So,you think that Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't drive?

[Michael Crane]

Come on man,

A CIA asset & an FBI informant that can't drive a car?

That dog won't hunt.

 

Discuss.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Jonathan Cohen]

55 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

Come on man,

A CIA asset & an FBI informant that can't drive a car?

That dog won't hunt.

Discuss.

He was neither, so there's nothing to discuss.

[Gerry Down]

Oswald could drive. Ruth Paine said so. He just didn't have a license.

[Michael Crane]

5 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Oswald could drive. Ruth Paine said so. He just didn't have a license.

Ok good.

To think we had assets in our intelligence community that could not drive????

I personally believe that would be an unwritten requirement.

I was driving my mom's 3-speed in the 8th grade.

Simple task.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Allen Lowe]

The title of this thread is a double negative - I think you meant to say "So you THINK that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't drive." As I read your intent you are complaining that they are suggesting he didn't drive, which you think is nonsense. I agree. The way you wrote it sounds like you are complaining that they think he drove.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Allen Lowe

[Michael Crane]

Sounds like Texas did have records of LHO having a drivers license,but they vanished like his tax records.

[Joe Bauer]

Young Lee Oswald moved around so much as a child through adolescence ( you don't keep a car easily at hand in that type of unstable situation ) and his barely making ends meet mother didn't sound as if she had a car much of the time.

And even when she did, I could imagine LHO's mean, bossy and impatient mother being the worst person you'd want to have show you the ropes.

Give it some gas...no, let it off, hit the brakes! Watch out! Turn left, turn right, HARDER, OH NO...you just ran over a curb Lee ...YOU IDIOT! 

Lee didn't have a father to give him beginners lessons.

His much older brothers Robert and John Pic weren't around to do so either.

Ruth Paine did however, testify that she gave Lee Oswald driving lessons several times using her car in 1963.

I remember friends of mine who got cars at an early age and would let me drive a block or two myself at times. Amazing how easy and relaxed it was to have friends your own age show you how to do things like drive a car. Or brothers close to you doing the same thing.

Oswald had nothing like that going for him.

We also had mandatory "Drivers Education" classes in our high school.

I doubt they had those in Lee's time.

And there was never enough money in Lee's world to even think about buying a car...even an old junker.

You really didn't need a car in the 1950's enlisted man Marines. Stationed overseas they had their own transportation to and from wherever they needed to go. And where would you park a car if you bought one? Right outside your barracks housing?

The longer one waits to get a license and do drivers training the anxiety level is higher imo.

When you are a teenager ( especially boys ) I think most have less fear of trying new things like driving a car. An extension of riding and racing bicycles maybe?

Lee missed the boat in that regards.

I believe he had more fear of driving than what has been speculated.

And Lee didn't drive in Minsk at all did he?

It's sad that Lee was saddled with that handicap which burdened him and his family to be so dependent on others to help them in that way.

Taking city buses and Greyhound buses get's old, inconveniencing and even embarrassing, especially when you have a wife and infant children in tow.

This handicap of Oswald's was a huge burdening problem for him and his young family. It put enormous strain on his marriage. Just think how much better his family life would have been if they were free to come and go anywhere they wanted and didn't have to be dependent on the White Russians and Ruth Paine like they were?

And the car shopper customer of Dallas car salesman Al Bogard who took Bogard for a wild 80 MPH Daytona 500 race track test drive just two weeks before 11,22,1963 could not have been Oswald.

If Bogard's story was true...that episode proves Oswald was being impersonated.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[W. Tracy Parnell]

18 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Oswald could drive. Ruth Paine said so. He just didn't have a license.

You have it exactly right.

[Joe Bauer]

43 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

You have it exactly right.

Why would Lee put off getting a license and a car for such a long time and instead go through the humiliation of depending on others to drive him and his family around so much?

4 times hundreds of miles from Dallas to New Orleans and back again?

[Michael Crane]

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

Why is the above application document completely filled out but not signed by Oswald?

Looks like Lee printed his name at the top and filled in the boxes answering every question.

Where was this document found?

At Ruth Paine's residence? Or at Oswald's North Beckley room?

He listed his residency address as "Irving, Texas."

Was Ruth Paine ever asked how Oswald did in his 4 driving practice runs with her and her car?

Was Ruth Paine's car a stick shift? Or an automatic?

Question for Michael Crane:

Do you think Lee Oswald could have been the customer that car salesman Al Bogard described as test driving one of his cars and driving like a wild man on the highway while doing so?

 

 

[Michael Crane]

IMHO,I don't think so.That was a stunt similar to the rifle range story.

[Michael Crane]

Cont'd Joe,

The plotters wanted a loud stunt with the Oswald imposter or look-a-like where-a-bouts known,while the real Lee Harvey Oswald was off on assigniment at a different location.

Check the dates of these stunts and you will probably find that the real LHO was off on assignment at a different location.

Once again,this is just a opinion.

*However,the rifle range stunt could have been arranged to make it look like LHO was "practicing" for the upcoming event.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Greg Doudna]

On driving: Oswald was witnessed driving, the morning of Mon Nov 11, 1963: "The mystery of the Furniture Mart sighting of Lee and Marina Oswald and their children and its solution", https://www.scrollery.com/?p=1450.

On the Downtown Lincoln-Mercury, here is something new: the date is nailed down, provided one accepts the testimony of Eugene Wilson, car salesman there, that part of the dangerous driving of the man who said his name was Lee Oswald, reported by his fellow salesman Bogard, was because the roads were slick from having rained.

I have gone over and over the weather data of that month, Nov 1963, collected and reported from Love Field, and for a long time I was just extremely baffled, for accurate data records show there was no rain on either Sat Nov 9, the day Bogard said it was, or Sat Nov 2, the day Eugene Wilson more convincingly (rain issue aside) said.

At last ... the solution: the Oswald test-drive at that dealership was not Nov 9, and was Nov 2.

The solution goes to a well-known phenomenon in which first rain after a long dry spell, especially rains that are so light that they do not wash away road grime and grease, make roads dangerous and slick. That was exactly the case the weekend of Sat Nov 2, in which there was 0 precipitation Nov 2, but there was light precipitation at 1 and 4 am Fri Nov 1, first rain after a dry spell.

On danger of "rain and slick pavement", this FBI document advising agents of that in their driving bureau cars: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=198272#relPageId=2890.

Eugene Wilson telling the FBI "Bogard also said that the customer [Oswald] drove like a mad man, driving much too fast, as it had been raining and the pavement was slick": https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59645#relPageId=148.

Eugene Wilson's correction of the published date adopted by the Warren Commission of Nov 9, to Nov 2, of the Oswald test-drive: http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/W Disk/Wilson Eugene/Item 01.pdf. 

Dallas, TX weather history showing precipitation on Nov 1, 1963 (and any other date information can be looked up): https://wunderground.com/history/daily/us/tx/dallas/KDAL/date/1963-11-1.

Article: "Verify: are roads really more slippery directly after it rains?": https://www.king5.com/article/news/verify/are-roads-really-more-slippery-directly-after-it-rains/281-d21e8c4d-ebea-439e-b646-86b84b5c10ee. Quoting a meteorologist:

"Cars on the road leak fluids, oil being one of the primary fluids ... So, any water will tend to float the oil to the top, just like in salad dressing. So, as soon as you have water on the roads, that floats oil up and it becomes immediately very slippery."

"Until the oil and dirt get washed away, the pavement will be slippery. That can happen in a matter of minutes during a downpour, according to Marriott. But, it's actually worse if it's simply drizzling, especially after a long dry spell. 

"In that case, it's going to stay slippery a lot longer," said Marriott. "You just think about it whenever you try to run something off with water. If you're doing a very slow pace, it takes much longer to get it rinsed off."

"An examination of the first "wet day" of each of the last five years in Washington revealed that on those days, the Washington State Patrol responded to far more collisions than the previous day. The only outlier is 2020, whose smaller numbers are based on the stay-at-home order of the pandemic, resulting in far fewer cars on the road.

"That’s anecdotal, perhaps, but it jives with the physics of oil and water – which allow us to verify: Yes, roads are more slippery, right when it rains or snows. So, make sure to slow down when it does."

The objection that that driver who looked and acted like he was Oswald, who said his name was Lee Harvey Oswald, could not have been Oswald due to the conflict that he was at Ruth Paine's house is removed, since that objection applies to Nov 9 but not the morning of Sat Nov 2 (from Ruth Paine's testimony). 

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

7 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

On driving: Oswald was witnessed driving, the morning of Mon Nov 11, 1963: "The mystery of the Furniture Mart sighting of Lee and Marina Oswald and their children and its solution", https://www.scrollery.com/?p=1450.

On the Downtown Lincoln-Mercury, here is something new: the date is nailed down, provided one accepts the testimony of Eugene Wilson, car salesman there, that part of the dangerous driving of the man who said his name was Lee Oswald, reported by his fellow salesman Bogard, was because the roads were slick from having rained.

I have gone over and over the weather data of that month, Nov 1963, collected and reported from Love Field, and for a long time I was just extremely baffled, for accurate data records show there was no rain on either Sat Nov 9, the day Bogard said it was, or Sat Nov 2, the day Eugene Wilson more convincingly (rain issue aside) said.

At last ... the solution: the Oswald test-drive at that dealership was not Nov 9, and was Nov 2.

The solution goes to a well-known phenomenon in which first rain after a long dry spell, especially rains that are so light that they do not wash away road grime and grease, make roads dangerous and slick. That was exactly the case the weekend of Sat Nov 2, in which there was 0 precipitation Nov 2, but there was light precipitation at 1 and 4 am Fri Nov 1, first rain after a dry spell.

On danger of "rain and slick pavement", this FBI document advising agents of that in their driving bureau cars: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=198272#relPageId=2890.

Eugene Wilson telling the FBI "Bogard also said that the customer [Oswald] drove like a mad man, driving much too fast, as it had been raining and the pavement was slick": https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59645#relPageId=148.

Eugene Wilson's correction of the published date adopted by the Warren Commission of Nov 9, to Nov 2, of the Oswald test-drive: http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/W Disk/Wilson Eugene/Item 01.pdf. 

Dallas, TX weather history showing precipitation on Nov 1, 1963 (and any other date information can be looked up): https://wunderground.com/history/daily/us/tx/dallas/KDAL/date/1963-11-1.

Article: "Verify: are roads really more slippery directly after it rains?": https://www.king5.com/article/news/verify/are-roads-really-more-slippery-directly-after-it-rains/281-d21e8c4d-ebea-439e-b646-86b84b5c10ee. Quoting a meteorologist:

"Cars on the road leak fluids, oil being one of the primary fluids ... So, any water will tend to float the oil to the top, just like in salad dressing. So, as soon as you have water on the roads, that floats oil up and it becomes immediately very slippery."

"Until the oil and dirt get washed away, the pavement will be slippery. That can happen in a matter of minutes during a downpour, according to Marriott. But, it's actually worse if it's simply drizzling, especially after a long dry spell. 

"In that case, it's going to stay slippery a lot longer," said Marriott. "You just think about it whenever you try to run something off with water. If you're doing a very slow pace, it takes much longer to get it rinsed off."

"An examination of the first "wet day" of each of the last five years in Washington revealed that on those days, the Washington State Patrol responded to far more collisions than the previous day. The only outlier is 2020, whose smaller numbers are based on the stay-at-home order of the pandemic, resulting in far fewer cars on the road.

"That’s anecdotal, perhaps, but it jives with the physics of oil and water – which allow us to verify: Yes, roads are more slippery, right when it rains or snows. So, make sure to slow down when it does."

The objection that that driver who looked and acted like he was Oswald, who said his name was Lee Harvey Oswald, could not have been Oswald due to the conflict that he was at Ruth Paine's house is removed, since that objection applies to Nov 9 but not the morning of Sat Nov 2 (from Ruth Paine's testimony). 

 

 

 

What person goes to a car dealership, asked to test drive a car and then proceeds to drive like a "MAD MAN' while doing so?

Especially if he or she is sober?

Oswald may have driven around a residential neighborhood with Ruth Paine a few times. However, I doubt if she told him to go onto a freeway and "LET ER RIP!"

Sounds like Lee H. wasn't ready for freeway driving.

Surprised no one asked Ruthie more details about her driving lessons with Lee.

How far did you let him drive? How fast? How did he do? Was he nervous or calm and confident driving? Did you let him go onto the freeway? Was he ready to take a DMV test and pass in your opinion?

Very important questions.