Roger Craig and the Deputy Interviews

[James DiEugenio]

I have belatedly got around to reading Steve Cameron's book about Roger Craig.

It is really a kind of oral history about the man with people like his son and Gary Shaw etc.  And it includes the original manuscript Craig wrote "When they Kill a President."

I am not going to get into a debate about whether or not Roger was killed or took his own life as I am not at all knowledgeable enough about the matter. (The book thinks its the former)

But there are two forensic issues the book brings up that are I think important.

The first is the guy who Craig thought was Oswald coming down the embankment and jumping onto a Rambler station wagon.  This was made famous by Thompson in his book Six Seconds in Dallas.

He matched it up with a guy named Marvin Robinson. And this was one of the high points in the first generation literature on the case (TInk added in the Hughes film to top if off).

On page 195, Cameron write that that he has located  "a total of eight witnesses who corroborate Roger Craig's testimony about the Rambler station wagon."

Helen Forrest

James Pennington (From Kurtz's first book, pp. 132, 189)

He then names the Douglass book:  Carr, Worrell, Forrest, Pennington, Robinson and Roy Cooper, Carolyn Walther and Ed Hoffmann (Douglass, p. 274)

Are these all accurate?  If so, its pretty powerful evidence that it was Oswald or a double on that embankment.

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

The other important issues he brings up is something that Bugliosi I think misrepresented.

In his doorstop book Reclaiming History, Vince wrote that the difference between the RFK case, which he worked on and thought was a conspiracy, and JFK is that the first case has definite evidence that there were too many shots fired for Sirhan to be the lone gunman.

Cameron does a nice job arguing that the same conditions apply in the JFK case.

He brings up the Mark Oakes work on Barrett and Walthers in the grass and the the whole thing about Walthers telling people that they did find an extra bullet.  (pp. 166 ff). BTW, if you have not seen the Oakes film, you should, its called On the Trail of the Mystery FBI Man.

He also brings up at article from the late Gary Mack's Cover Ups journal from Feb 1983.  There, a couple named Hartman who said that the FBI distorted testimony about seeing two gouges in the grass, reducing it to one. And saying it looked like it came from the TSBD when they said it looked like it came from the grassy knoll.

Dudman reported an extra shot in the New Republic on 12/21/63.

Walthers told the following people about the bullet he and Barrett saw and Barrett lifted up: A Maddox, Craig, Buddy's wife, Inspector Sawyer.  (Like the Ruth Paine file cabinets, Buddy  reversed course for the WC).

Patrolman J. W. Foster also said that he saw a bullet gouge at the tip of the manhole cover on Elm Street..(Oakes' film)

He also has a news story from the Dallas Times Herald, (11/ 24/63)where Lt Day said a bullet was recovered at about 100  yards.

 

[James DiEugenio]

BTW Cameron used the rare Eric Tagg book on Buddy Walthers a lot.

Its called Brush with History.

I don't have it, but I think Larry does.  It seems to me to be a pretty valuable book.

[James DiEugenio]

So Larry, did you read Tagg's book?

Its not easy to get.

[Nick Bartetzko]

Jim,

Most of the Rambler witnesses I'm familiar with, but I was unaware that Helen Forrest claimed to have seen this as well. Kurtz also says that Forrest told him she saw a gunman on the TSBD second floor. I'm not impressed by Mr Kurtz research and lack of detailed information. 
 

I have also found the Hartmanns account interesting. If there were two GK shots, this would conflict with the acoustics evidence. It's been a theory of mine that the one ...or two...shots from the GK could have been part of the false flag operation, if it indeed existed. Same for the 6th floor location. 

As to missed shots pertaining to or near the street, there is the Teague fragment, the Foster report on the manhole cover, the shot behind the limousine that 5 or 6 witnesses saw and a report by a motorcycle patrolman that either a bullet fragment or street richocet struck his fender. I'm admittedly very vague on the last one, but I'm sure I read about it many years ago. If there was a south knoll shot, and it went thru the windshield and missed, could this have been the same shot that the 5-6 witnesses saw and the patrolman as well? I believe it's possible. 

[Jonathan Cohen]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Are these all accurate?  If so, its pretty powerful evidence that it was Oswald or a double on that embankment.

They could be "accurate" in the sense that those people did make such statements, but that hardly means they're correct, and they in no way jive with Oswald's known movements from the time he left the Book Depository to the time he was arrested.

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks for that input from both of you.

As for the south knoll shot, Mantik and others think it happened.  And he will be speaking in Pittsburgh I think on this point.

I am not familiar with the ricochet off the fender.  In fact, you are the first one I have heard that from.

Jonathan, Cameron makes the argument that the witnesses about what Oswald officially did are questionable.

But I am sure you are aware of the double Oswald theory.  And Bernard Haire.

[Sean Coleman]

6 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

They could be "accurate" in the sense that those people did make such statements, but that hardly means they're correct, and they in no way jive with Oswald's known movements from the time he left the Book Depository to the time he was arrested.

What (iyo) were Oswald known movements?

[Pete Mellor]

10 hours ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

As to missed shots pertaining to or near the street

I seem to recall Bill Decker in the 'lead' car reported seeing a shot hit the street.  I've always assumed this hit to be in front of the presidential limousine but not certain.

Bet there's a separate thread on this Forum covering the 'flurry' of shots on Elm St.

[Jonathan Cohen]

4 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

What (iyo) were Oswald known movements?

Walking out of the Book Depository after helpfully directing a reporter to a phone, boarding a bus, exiting that bus, getting into a taxi, and arriving at his rooming house. To believe otherwise means every witness to those movements was lying or grossly mistaken, no?

[Joe Bauer]

The Roger Craig story has always been a nudgingly curious one to me.

There seems to be just enough corroborative documentation and testimony to back up most of his claims to debatable degrees that you just can't dismiss them out of hand.

I do believe Fritz lied when he denied Craig's claim that he ( Craig ) was called into his office while Oswald was being interrogated there.

Craig's account of what he saw, heard and did in that Fritz office and in Dealey Plaza on 11,22,1963 seemed too detailed to have been made up imo.

The more details, the easier it would be to find others on the scene to counter them and prove they weren't true or in the least extremely misinformed and/or exaggerated.

And Craig stuck with his account despite enormous pressure to change it.

I have read some accounts about Craig's mental and emotional make up that suggest at least a few related problems in his life.

Certainly depression in his last years. Earlier not sure.

Craig's own daughter adding to this. Stating her father was discharged from military active duty because he kept "injuring himself" ?

For those wanting to discredit Craig this would of course be the ultimate tactic to do so.

I have always been curious about the entire story of Craig's early life.

His runs away from home at 12?

12?

That begs so many heavy questions of childhood trauma such as serious child abuse, neglect, etc.

A 12 year old boy walks off on his own into the world? With what? A small suitcase? A few dollars in his pocket?

Did he hitchhike? Did he ever have to sleep outside at night? Was he ever molested? 

I can't imagine ( thinking back to myself at 12 ) what that must have been like. Sounds terrifying in many ways. Sounds almost like life and death desperation.

I don't see Craig's childhood run off as some romantic see the world adventure motivated action.

And Craig was always a deathly thin person. At that age he must have looked even more waifish, fragile and vulnerable than other kids.

Craig recounted that for several years he wandered by himself and found jobs on ranches and farms? In Northern Plains states and even Rocky Mountain states then Nebraska, Oklahoma and finally in Texas?

How Craig survived under those circumstances as a child is a story I want to know more about. On it's face it sounds like a fascinating tale.

Based on Craig's account of running away from home and then having to fend for himself as a child of 12 wandering from state to state and surviving on his own, I have to assume ( using my life experience common sense ) that Craig was very possibly seriously traumatized before he ran away from home and maybe after.

To a degree that he was likely a person afflicted with a serious case of post traumatic stress syndrome.

Maybe Craig's childhood was so neglectful and abusive, he couldn't even talk about it. To anyone , ever. The pain is too great to re-feel.

That frequently happens in the many of the worst cases.

What any of this could mean in the over-all story of Roger Craig in the JFKA case is a big and debatable question mark I admit.

Yet, still, I would love to have heard how Roger Dean Craig survived on his own from 12 years old out into the rugged terrain and lifestyle of the Dakota's, Wyoming. Colorado. etc, back in those poor economic times.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Allen Lowe]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

The Roger Craig story has always been a nudgingly curious one to me.

There seems to be just enough corroborative documentation and testimony to back up most of his claims to debatably believable degrees that you just can't dismiss them out of hand.

I do believe Fritz lied when he denied Craig's claim that he ( Craig ) was called into his office while Oswald was being interrogated there.

Craig's account of what he saw, heard and did in that Fritz office and in Dealey Plaza on 11,22,1963 seemed too detailed to have been made up imo.

The more details, the easier it would be to find others on the scene to counter them and prove they weren't true or in the least extremely misinformed and/or exaggerated.

And Craig stuck with his account despite enormous pressure to change it.

I have read some accounts about Craig's mental and emotional make up indicating some serious problems throughout his life.

Craig's own daughter adding to this. Stating her father was discharged from military active duty because he kept "injuring himself" ?

For those wanting to discredit Craig this would of course be the ultimate tactic to do so.

I have always been curious about the entire story of Craig's early life.

His runs away from home at 12?

12?

That begs so many heavy questions of childhood trauma such as serious child abuse, neglect, etc.

A 12 year old boy walks off on his own into the world? With what? A small suitcase? A few dollars in his pocket?

Did he hitchhike? Did he ever have to sleep outside at night? Was he ever molested? 

I can't imagine ( thinking back to myself at 12 ) what that must have been like. Sounds terrifying in many ways. Sounds almost like life and death desperation.

I don't see Craig's childhood run off as some romantic see the world adventure motivated action.

And Craig was always a deathly thin person. At that age he must have looked even more waifish, fragile and vulnerable than other kids.

Craig recounted that for several years he wandered by himself and found jobs on ranches and farms? In Northern Plains states and even Rocky Mountain states then Nebraska, Oklahoma and finally in Texas?

How Craig survived under those circumstances as a child is a story I want to know more about. On it's face it sounds like a fascinating tale.

Based on Craig's account of running away from home and then having to fend for himself as a child of 12 wandering from state to state and surviving on his own, I have to assume ( using my life experience common sense ) that Craig was very possibly seriously traumatized before he ran away from home and maybe after.

To a degree that he was likely a person afflicted with a serious case of post traumatic stress syndrome.

Maybe Craig's childhood was so neglectful and abusive, he couldn't even talk about it. To anyone , ever. The pain is too great to re-feel.

That frequently happens in the many of the worst cases.

What any of this could mean in the over-all story of Roger Craig in the JFKA case is a big and debatable question mark I admit.

Yet, still, I would love to have heard how Roger Dean Craig survived on his own from 12 years old out into the rugged terrain and lifestyle of the Dakota's, Wyoming. Colorado. etc, back in those poor economic times.

 

 

 

 

 

 

People have said Craig went a little crazy, and cite this as a way of discrediting him - but if you read his book, he was fired from one job after another, likely for his outspokenness on the assassination - and as a result he lost his home, his family - something that would push the most stable person over the line. Also, just to get a sense of his Craig's credibility about harassment, in Barry Earnest's book he tells of sitting in a car with Craig when two cops come over and start to give them a hard time, clearly because  of Craig's presence. So to me he has plenty of justification for losing it. I have had a mild version of this kind of personal harassment, and it makes you paranoid and hostile.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Allen Lowe

[Tom Gram]

Another witness to the Rambler incident is Marion Meharg. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=56

[Jonathan Cohen]

3 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Another witness to the Rambler incident is Marion Meharg. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=56

Tom, I have a hard time taking Marion Meharg's deposition seriously on this matter ... do you believe him, given all the circumstances?

[Sean Coleman]

4 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Walking out of the Book Depository after helpfully directing a reporter to a phone, boarding a bus, exiting that bus, getting into a taxi, and arriving at his rooming house. To believe otherwise means every witness to those movements was lying or grossly mistaken, no?

Yeah, with you on that.

Thought you’d say something controversial……