The three tramps mystery

[Steve Thomas]

On 5/16/2023 at 12:37 PM, Bill Brown said:

 

It's laughable to believe that Oswald would have been placed in a cell with (or alongside) other prisoners where he could have "talked" to them at all.

The testimonial record tells you that Oswald was completely segregated.

 

 

I thought I had seen pictures of those jail cells before.

Pause that Hard Copy film at the 1:21 mark.

The jail cells in the Dallas Police Department were just a line of open bar cages. They were not separate rooms.

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

This is slightly off-topic, but I wanted to jot it down before I forget it.

On December 1, 1963 Richard Borchgardt (who had appeared in a lineup alongside Lee Harvey Oswald) told Patrolman Kenneth Anderton that he had information that Jack Ruby was involved in a gun running scheme involving Lawrence Miller, et.al.

Portal to Texas History John F. Kennedy Memorial Collection

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338950/?q=Anderton

Though Anderton identified Borchgardt as “Robert” instead of “Richard”, Borchgardt told Anderton that Ruby had been in a motel room with four other men and named Lawrence Miller as one of the four. Lawrence Miller is the man with the smashed - up face.

Compare the Borchgardt/Anderton story to the account of John Elrod in this FBI Report:

Steve Thomas

[Greg Doudna]

23 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

This is slightly off-topic, but I wanted to jot it down before I forget it.

On December 1, 1963 Richard Borchgardt (who had appeared in a lineup alongside Lee Harvey Oswald) told Patrolman Kenneth Anderton that he had information that Jack Ruby was involved in a gun running scheme involving Lawrence Miller, et.al.

Portal to Texas History John F. Kennedy Memorial Collection

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338950/?q=Anderton

Though Anderton identified Borchgardt as “Robert” instead of “Richard”, Borchgardt told Anderton that Ruby had been in a motel room with four other men and named Lawrence Miller as one of the four. Lawrence Miller is the man with the smashed - up face.

Compare the Borchgardt/Anderton story to the account of John Elrod in this FBI Report:

Steve Thomas

This is interesting Steve but I see nothing connecting Ruby to the Miller gunrunning four or a motel room in the borchgardt story, though it sounds like borchgardt knew the same ones in the Elrod story. What is interesting is borchgardt picked up some rumor that ruby owed bookies —not the irs—$40,000 (about a half million in todays money) which would be forgiven if he offed Oswald. But no verification and officer Anderton didn’t think there was anything of interest there, such as to ask borchgardt where he heard that. 

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

This is interesting Steve but I see nothing connecting Ruby to the Miller gunrunning four or a motel room in the borchgardt story, though it sounds like borchgardt knew the same ones in the Elrod story. What is interesting is borchgardt picked up some rumor that ruby owed bookies —not the irs—$40,000 (about a half million in todays money) which would be forgiven if he offed Oswald. But no verification and officer Anderton didn’t think there was anything of interest there, such as to ask borchgardt where he heard that. 

Greg,

Elrod told the FBI that Ruby had met four other men in a motel to talk about a gun running scheme.

I wondered if Borchgardt named those four other men. We know Lawrence Miller was one.

Was Wydell Ruby's car mechanic?

Steve Thomas

[Greg Doudna]

On 5/18/2023 at 3:11 PM, Steve Thomas said:

Greg,

Elrod told the FBI that Ruby had met four other men in a motel to talk about a gun running scheme.

I wondered if Borchgardt named those four other men. We know Lawrence Miller was one.

Was Wydell Ruby's car mechanic?

Steve Thomas

That is interesting Steve, seems like it could be the four, i.e. two versions not just one of the same story. In this second version with actual names that could be further traced and researched.

If Elrod was picked up Friday on suspicion and held 72 hours (as in the memory of Elrod in the excerpt you quoted), he would have been in the Dallas jail after Ruby's killing of Oswald Sunday morning, and the reference to Ruby by name would make sense as after Ruby was in the news, not before, therefore the incident of the seeing the man with the smashed-up face I reason should be Sunday afternoon or Monday (and the man in the cell with Elrod therefore not Oswald but someone else--Thomas Masen, who supposedly was arrested about that time and also was involved with gunrunning (and according to ATF Ellsworth, could be confused in appearance with Oswald thereby accounting for possible confusion in Elrod's memory on that point?)

Borchgardt says all four in that meeting worked for someone named "Fred". Any idea who "Fred" could be?

[Steve Thomas]

31 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

That is interesting Steve, seems like it could be the four, i.e. two versions not just one of the same story. In this second version with actual names that could be further traced and researched.

If Elrod was picked up Friday on suspicion and held 72 hours (as in the memory of Elrod in the excerpt you quoted), he would have been in the Dallas jail after Ruby's killing of Oswald Sunday morning, and the reference to Ruby by name would make sense as after Ruby was in the news, not before, therefore the incident of the seeing the man with the smashed-up face I reason should be Sunday afternoon or Monday (and the man in the cell with Elrod therefore not Oswald but someone else--Thomas Masen, who supposedly was arrested about that time and also was involved with gunrunning (and according to ATF Ellsworth, could be confused in appearance with Oswald thereby accounting for possible confusion in Elrod's memory on that point?)

Borchgardt says all four in that meeting worked for someone named "Fred". Any idea who "Fred" could be?

Greg,

Elrod (along with Gedney, Doyle, etc. and Daniel Wayne Douglas, and who knows how many others) were all released at 9:00 AM on November 26, 1963; so he was still in jail on the 24th.

I was never able to get a line on "Fred". I always thought it would have been a good line of research to look into a possible car theft ring running stolen cars from Chicago down to Mexico.

The LaFontaines maintain that Elrod's informant was Oswld. The FBI report is very careful not to identify whose informant Elrod's was. 

Was the FBI trying to shield Oswald as a source?

I don't know.

Steve Thomas

 

[Joe Bauer]

Police agency interview reports are always totally truthful?

Julia Ann Mercer and her FBI interview? No notary present. Altered signature not her own?

Many WC witness's claimed their testimony was altered or in the least reported with bias.

High cred journalist Seth Kantor for one.

Heck, important evidence documents are even ripped up and flushed down toilets as "Assignment Oswald" author agent James P. Hosty chucklingly admitted regards his office's Oswald file.

Ruby's involvement with gun running is alluded to in many interviews of people close to Ruby whether short term or long term.

Former Ruby employee Nancy Hamilton related a meet up regards gun running where Jack Ruby showed up as the money man in such a proposed scheme.

I just read Ruby employee Andy Armstrong's testimony. He also mentions gun running and Ruby. Not in detail but he does mention Ruby getting guns, perhaps illegal pistol's ...one for his sister and another person?

The argument that Julia Ann Mercer's story was an attention seeking fabrication and totally misinformed is so weak.

In the Clay Shaw trial the booking officer in the New Orleans police department ( "Aloysius Habighorst " ) stated that when he asked Clay Shaw if he had any other names he used that Shaw stated "Clay Bertrand."

Trial judge refused to allow his testimony in the trial.

And on and on.

And as far as General Lansdale not wearing a ring...I'd like to look back at some of the other photos of him to verify that proposition.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Bill Brown]

On 5/17/2023 at 3:11 PM, Steve Thomas said:

I thought I had seen pictures of those jail cells before.

Pause that Hard Copy film at the 1:21 mark.

The jail cells in the Dallas Police Department were just a line of open bar cages. They were not separate rooms.

Steve Thomas

 

Yep, fully aware.

 

But those cells were empty.  No other prisoners were anywhere near Oswald for that entire weekend.

 

Oswald was placed in Cell Block F, which consisted of only three cells.  Oswald was placed in one cell; the other two were empty, i.e. Oswald was the only prisoner in the entire cell block.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Bill Brown

[Steve Thomas]

15 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Yep, fully aware.

 

But those cells were empty.  No other prisoners were anywhere near Oswald for that entire weekend.

 

Bill,

Look at the telephone records of calls placed from the jails that weekend.

The cells were full of guys.

Look at CD 1444 pages 5 - 16.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11839#relPageId=6

Steve Thomas

[Bill Brown]

2 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Bill,

Look at the telephone records of calls placed from the jails that weekend.

The cells were full of guys.

Look at CD 1444 pages 5 - 16.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11839#relPageId=6

Steve Thomas

 

(Sigh)

 

And where, other than Oswald, does it list any other prisoner from Cell Block F making or receiving calls?

 

Oswald was placed in Cell Block F, which consisted of only three cells.  Oswald was placed in one cell; the other two were empty, i.e. Oswald was the only prisoner in the entire cell block.

 

[Tom Gram]

39 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

(Sigh)

 

And where, other than Oswald, does it list any other prisoner from Cell Block F making or receiving calls?

 

Oswald was placed in Cell Block F, which consisted of only three cells.  Oswald was placed in one cell; the other two were empty, i.e. Oswald was the only prisoner in the entire cell block.

 

It makes sense that they’d keep Oswald segregated, but I think a source on this and/or a map of the DPD cells would help make your point here. 

[Bill Brown]

9 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

It makes sense that they’d keep Oswald segregated, but I think a source on this and/or a map of the DPD cells would help make your point here. 

 

Oswald was the only prisoner in Cell Block F.  What would a map of the cells tell you?  There were three cells in F Block and I'm pretty sure Oswald was kept in the middle cell.  The cells on each side were empty.

 

[Tom Gram]

11 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Oswald was the only prisoner in Cell Block F.  What would a map of the cells tell you?  There were three cells in F Block and I'm pretty sure Oswald was kept in the middle cell.  The cells on each side were empty.

 

I’m not questioning anything, just saying that you should provide a source. A lot of people aren’t just going to take your word for it that there were only three cells in cell block F, that Oswald was put in the middle cell, and that the side cells were empty. 

[Bill Brown]

13 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

I’m not questioning anything, just saying that you should provide a source. A lot of people aren’t just going to take your word for it that there were only three cells in cell block F, that Oswald was put in the middle cell, and that the side cells were empty. 

 

Translation:

 

A lot of people want to partake in ill-advised speculation about the Elrod story without knowing a damn thing about the real. actual testimonial record.

 

The human mind craves a mystery more than it desires the truth.

 

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Oswald was the only prisoner in Cell Block F.  What would a map of the cells tell you?  There were three cells in F Block and I'm pretty sure Oswald was kept in the middle cell.  The cells on each side were empty.

 

Bill,

I'm curious. How do you know this?

Also, how much distance was there between cell blocks? 

Steve Thomas