Prayer Man More Than A Fuzzy Picture

[Greg Doudna]

59 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

That's a valid point, Tom. But I think it's probably apples and oranges. 

A bunch of people in shock looking around trying to figure out what happened down the street would probably not remember the people running around on the street in front of them, and even running past them into the building. 

But this same group of people would probably remember a co-worker's standing with them, especially if they were subsequently told he was somewhere else.

Now, there is the possibility, however remote, that Oswald snuck out on the steps for a few seconds behind the others, and that no one noticed him. But my recollection is that the Prayer Man scenario has him out there for minutes, not seconds. Is that correct? 

Pat I think Tom's point is stronger than realized. If Oswald had gone out early and mingled with the others, or had been there for some time, then he would be hard to miss. But the earliest evidence Prayer Man is there is the Wiegman film and the only estimate I have seen is that earliest evidence is ca. 3 seconds before the head shot of Z313, that time estimate attributed to Gary Mack. Then the Darnell film has Prayer Man there ca. 30 seconds after Z313. If Prayer Man was Oswald then he had to have left the Prayer Man position very soon, as in not many seconds after, Darnell ends, in order to meet Baker at the doorway to the SW stairwell second floor.

Suppose Oswald steps out into that northwest corner behind everyone else, no one sees him because of where he is, because he slips in after everyone else, and because everyone's attention is focused on the parade. A small number of seconds later shots are heard. Frazier is not only transfixed by the shots, but Frazier I think has actually testified somewhere that his first instant reaction (believable to me) was to suspect there could be a connection with Oswald's package that morning that had puzzled Frazier, and (as Frazier himself described somewhere) he consciously realized he must not react or run, but stay calm and not move. The reason I think Frazier was thinking that (apart from Frazier has said so) is because the mind thinks of things in a flash like that, and because Frazier may have voiced something about the package question to his sister Linnie Mae when he saw her at home before going to visit his father that afternoon, perhaps in the background to Linnie Mae volunteering that to police officers (with the result of causing brother Wesley to come under a lot of suspicion and herself also).

The point is it is very plausible that Frazier would be momentarily shell-shocked, and it is believable he could not notice if Oswald was there to his right arriving unobtrusively after he was no longer paying attention to who was around him. In the Darnell film Frazier appears to be staring from his vantage point into the distance at where the presidential limousine was last seen at Dealey Plaza before disappearing. 

Oswald himself in this scenario, hearing the shots, can't see the president's limousine from where he is at, and perhaps that could account for stepping forward and one leg down on the next step, at a height level seen in Darnell, still not noticed by Frazier. That Frazier has no idea to the present day who that figure was is consistent with he had no idea then. 

The Prayer Man Oswald possibility does not go away easily because there is no good identification that it was anyone else that has been convincing. That doesn't mean it wasn't someone else, but in all this time no satisfactory alternative identification has come forward of that person from any of the witnesses on the steps. Frazier says he has no idea who it was. (If it were Sarah Stanton, Frazier would have remembered that, since Frazier did remember Sarah Stanton, which means Prayer Man was not Sarah Stanton, who Frazier in any case directly said in one interview was to the left of him, not to his right as was Prayer Man.)

And most other persons working in the TSBD are accounted for, and its a white male with male pattern hairline in agreement with 25% of white men of Oswald's age of whom Oswald was one of those 25%; is not wearing a suit meaning a manual worker like Oswald; if he's standing down one step with one leg on that first step the height matches Oswald's, and (again) ... not otherwise identified. 

The only real arguments at this point that it was not Oswald go back to if one believes the evidence otherwise has Oswald on the sixth floor at the time of the shots; the argument that no one on the front steps noticed Oswald there; and an objection that Oswald did not say so to news reporters instead of saying he was inside the building because he worked there. 

On the second of those, no one noticed him on the front steps is not decisive, since no one at the time noticed who that person was at all, and it remains a mystery to present day. Someone quietly entering at the back while everyone was fixated on looking at the parade, for ca. 40 seconds or whatever brief time Prayer Man might have been there, it seems to me could easily have been missed by people standing in front of and to the side of him. Again, if Frazier had said in recent years, "No that's not Oswald, that was ______, I remember him/her", that would be a different matter. But that isn't what Frazier says. He has no idea.

On why Oswald did not say he was in Prayer Man's position at the time of the shots if he was, he must have been asked where he was at the time of the shots in interrogation and arguably did give that as his answer to that question when asked. However, the objection is he did not say so to reporters in the hallway when asked did he kill the president. Did he realize the nature of the accusation against him prior to that point? Did he regard the question as coming from left field. If he was Prayer Man out for only ca. 40 seconds or so at the doorway threshold without knowing if he had been seen, was a shouted question in a hallway the place to start explaining his case for a possible alibi and suggesting possible names and details of people to ask if they had seen him? 

Unrecognized by the Warren Commission and researchers alike, I believe two studies of mine earlier this year established as a new fact that Oswald himself removed his rifle from the Ruth Paine garage on the morning of Nov 11, 1963, eleven days before the assassination, with no direct evidence the rifle was ever returned to or in that garage again after that date, a "black hole" of lack of knowledge of the whereabouts and custody of that rifle in terms of hard evidence or witnessed sighting, between Nov 11 and when it turns up next eleven days later on the 6th floor TSBD on Nov 22. My two studies which I regard as establishing that fact of an event (of removal of the rifle from the Ruth Paine garage on the morning of Nov 11, 1963), are: https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/JFK-Furniture-Mart-mystery-105-pdf2.pdf and https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Irving-Sport-Shop-109-pdf.pdf. 

Whether that fact (as I regard it) means anything or not, I do not know. But it has not previously been known or entered into consideration.

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Pat I think Tom's point is stronger than realized. If Oswald had gone out early and mingled with the others, or had been there for some time, then he would be hard to miss. But the earliest evidence Prayer Man is there is the Wiegman film and the only estimate I have seen is that earliest evidence is ca. 3 seconds before the head shot of Z313, that time estimate attributed to Gary Mack. Then the Darnell film has Prayer Man there ca. 30 seconds after Z313. If Prayer Man was Oswald then he had to have left the Prayer Man position very soon, as in not many seconds after, Darnell ends, in order to meet Baker at the doorway to the SW stairwell second floor.

Suppose Oswald steps out into that northwest corner behind everyone else, no one sees him because of where he is, because he slips in after everyone else, and because everyone's attention is focused on the parade. A small number of seconds later shots are heard. Frazier is not only transfixed by the shots, but Frazier I think has actually testified somewhere that his first instant reaction (believable to me) was to suspect there could be a connection with Oswald's package that morning that had puzzled Frazier, and (as Frazier himself described somewhere) he consciously realized he must not react or run, but stay calm and not move. The reason I think Frazier was thinking that (apart from Frazier has said so) is because the mind thinks of things in a flash like that, and because Frazier may have voiced something about the package question to his sister Linnie Mae when he saw her at home before going to visit his father that afternoon, perhaps in the background to Linnie Mae volunteering that to police officers (with the result of causing brother Wesley to come under a lot of suspicion and herself also).

The point is it is very plausible that Frazier would be momentarily shell-shocked, and it is believable he could not notice if Oswald was there to his right arriving unobtrusively after he was no longer paying attention to who was around him. In the Darnell film Frazier appears to be staring from his vantage point into the distance at where the presidential limousine was last seen at Dealey Plaza before disappearing. 

Oswald himself in this scenario, hearing the shots, can't see the president's limousine from where he is at, and perhaps that could account for stepping forward and one leg down on the next step, at a height level seen in Darnell, still not noticed by Frazier. That Frazier has no idea to the present day who that figure was is consistent with he had no idea then. 

The Prayer Man Oswald possibility does not go away easily because there is no good identification that it was anyone else that has been convincing. That doesn't mean it wasn't someone else, but in all this time no satisfactory alternative identification has come forward of that person from any of the witnesses on the steps. Frazier says he has no idea who it was. (If it were Sarah Stanton, Frazier would have remembered that, since Frazier did remember Sarah Stanton, which means Prayer Man was not Sarah Stanton, who Frazier in any case directly said in one interview was to the left of him, not to his right as was Prayer Man.)

And most other persons working in the TSBD are accounted for, and its a white male with male pattern hairline in agreement with 25% of white men of Oswald's age of whom Oswald was one of those 25%; is not wearing a suit meaning a manual worker like Oswald; if he's standing down one step with one leg on that first step the height matches Oswald's, and (again) ... not otherwise identified. 

The only real arguments at this point that it was not Oswald go back to if one believes the evidence otherwise has Oswald on the sixth floor at the time of the shots; the argument that no one on the front steps noticed Oswald there; and an objection that Oswald did not say so to news reporters instead of saying he was inside the building because he worked there. 

On the second of those, no one noticed him on the front steps is not decisive, since no one at the time noticed who that person was at all, and it remains a mystery to present day. Someone quietly entering at the back while everyone was fixated on looking at the parade, for ca. 40 seconds or whatever brief time Prayer Man might have been there, it seems to me could easily have been missed by people standing in front of and to the side of him. Again, if Frazier had said in recent years, "No that's not Oswald, that was ______, I remember him/her", that would be a different matter. But that isn't what Frazier says. He has no idea.

On why Oswald did not say he was in Prayer Man's position at the time of the shots if he was, he must have been asked where he was at the time of the shots in interrogation and arguably did give that as his answer to that question when asked. However, the objection is he did not say so to reporters in the hallway when asked did he kill the president. Did he realize the nature of the accusation against him prior to that point? Did he regard the question as coming from left field. If he was Prayer Man out for only ca. 40 seconds or so at the doorway threshold without knowing if he had been seen, was a shouted question in a hallway the place to start explaining his case for a possible alibi and suggesting possible names and details of people to ask if they had seen him? 

Unrecognized by the Warren Commission and researchers alike, I believe two studies of mine earlier this year established as a new fact that Oswald himself removed his rifle from the Ruth Paine garage on the morning of Nov 11, 1963, eleven days before the assassination, with no direct evidence the rifle was ever returned to or in that garage again after that date, a "black hole" of lack of knowledge of the whereabouts and custody of that rifle in terms of hard evidence or witnessed sighting, between Nov 11 and when it turns up next eleven days later on the 6th floor TSBD on Nov 22. My two studies which I regard as establishing that fact of an event (of removal of the rifle from the Ruth Paine garage on the morning of Nov 11, 1963), are: https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/JFK-Furniture-Mart-mystery-105-pdf2.pdf and https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Irving-Sport-Shop-109-pdf.pdf. 

Whether that fact (as I regard it) means anything or not, I do not know. But it has not previously been known or entered into consideration.

Oh my, Greg, you lost me. I was following your reasoning until you said Prayer Man couldn't be Stanton because Frazier didn't recognize it as Stanton. Well, he said he was standing by Stanton and he hasn't pointed her out anywhere else.  So it could be Stanton. and is quite possibly Stanton, seeing as she is known to have been in the area and isn't anywhere else. As for your next point--that it is a male, I think that's lala. There is no way you or anyone can say that that blurry blob is a man. Or a woman for that matter. I am sure you are aware of this, but people are highly open to suggestion. Some have been shouting that the figure looks EXACTLY like Oswald for so long that others have begun to believe it. But it wasn't true when they began yelling it, and isn't true today. In fact, I am aware of studies and presentations claiming one can make out a bracelet on Prayer Person's wrist, and that it's Oswald's Marine Corps bracelet. Nonsense. The limited number of pixels in the image--even on the clearest copies--are not enough to make out facial features and the writing on the bracelet, etc. No. The only study of the image to hold any weight, to my knowledge,  is the study demonstrating that Prayer Man is shorter than Oswald, and could only be Oswald if were standing on a lower step, etc. And that pretty much sinks the boat, IMO. It's one thing to say Oswald was in back of his co-workers and wasn't noticed but it's another thing entirely to say he stepped forward in front of some of them...and STILL wasn't noticed. 

I mean, think about it. It's the weakest sauce imaginable. 

No one has said they saw Oswald on the steps. 

No photo exists of what is indisputably Oswald on the steps.

No photo exists of what a majority of researchers think is Oswald on the steps. 

The only images which may show Oswald on the steps are too blurry to provide a positive ID, and can not be improved upon to the extent necessary to provide a positive ID. 

Despite plentiful opportunity, Oswald never told anyone he was out on the steps when the shots were fired. 

The author of the only notes which might possibly suggest Oswald was outside when the shots were fired, wrote a report in which this wasn't mentioned, and lived a long life in which he never told anyone Oswald had said he was outside when the shots were fired. 

There's no there there. Barring a confession from Frazier, or the release of an unpublished manuscript by Hosty or some such thing, it's a dead end. 

 

P.S. I re-read your analysis of Marina's testimony re her supposed trip to the furniture store, and found myself believing her more than the woman claiming to have seen her at the store. The testimony you cite is 4 months after the shooting. Are there November statements by this woman which can be compared to her subsequent testimony? Because people don't remember encounters with strangers in the detail she claims for weeks afterward, let alone months. I suspect she's a fabulist, trying to insert herself into a bit of history. But I would be more inclined to believe her if she came forward on the day of or day after the shooting. In such case her recollections during testimony would be of what she said then--11 or 12 days after their supposed encounter--as opposed to being memories from the encounter itself.  

Edited September 25, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Greg Doudna]

 

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Oh my, Greg, you lost me. I was following your reasoning until you said Prayer Man couldn't be Stanton because Frazier didn't recognize it as Stanton. Well, he said he was standing by Stanton and he hasn't pointed her out anywhere else.  So it could be Stanton. and is quite possibly Stanton, seeing as she is known to have been in the area and isn't anywhere else. As for your next point--that it is a male, I think that's lala. There is no way you or anyone can say that that blurry blob is a man. Or a woman for that matter. I am sure you are aware of this, but people are highly open to suggestion. Some have been shouting that the figure looks EXACTLY like Oswald for so long that others have begun to believe it. But it wasn't true when they began yelling it, and isn't true today. In fact, I am aware of studies and presentations claiming one can make out a bracelet on Prayer Person's wrist, and that it's Oswald's Marine Corps bracelet. Nonsense. The limited number of pixels in the image--even on the clearest copies--are not enough to make out facial features and the writing on the bracelet, etc. No. The only study of the image to hold any weight, to my knowledge,  is the study demonstrating that Prayer Man is shorter than Oswald, and could only be Oswald if were standing on a lower step, etc. And that pretty much sinks the boat, IMO. It's one thing to say Oswald was in back of his co-workers and wasn't noticed but it's another thing entirely to say he stepped forward in front of some of them...and STILL wasn't noticed. 

I mean, think about it. It's the weakest sauce imaginable. 

No one has said they saw Oswald on the steps. 

No photo exists of what is indisputably Oswald on the steps.

No photo exists of what a majority of researchers think is Oswald on the steps. 

The only images which may show Oswald on the steps are too blurry to provide a positive ID, and can not be improved upon to the extent necessary to provide a positive ID. 

Despite plentiful opportunity, Oswald never told anyone he was out on the steps when the shots were fired. 

The author of the only notes which might possibly suggest Oswald was outside when the shots were fired, wrote a report in which this wasn't mentioned, and lived a long life in which he never told anyone Oswald had said he was outside when the shots were fired. 

There's no there there. Barring a confession from Frazier, or the release of an unpublished manuscript by Hosty or some such thing, it's a dead end. 

P.S. I re-read your analysis of Marina's testimony re her supposed trip to the furniture store, and found myself believing her more than the woman claiming to have seen her at the store. The testimony you cite is 4 months after the shooting. Are there November statements by this woman which can be compared to her subsequent testimony? Because people don't remember encounters with strangers in the detail she claims for weeks afterward, let alone months. I suspect she's a fabulist, trying to insert herself into a bit of history. But I would be more inclined to believe her if she came forward on the day of or day after the shooting. In such case her recollections during testimony would be of what she said then--11 or 12 days after their supposed encounter--as opposed to being memories from the encounter itself.  

 

Pat -- on Prayer Man being a man not a woman, I got that from the hairline--a male pattern baldness receding hairline at the temple is what it looks like to me-- but I concede with you that it is possible to overinterpret the information in the fuzzy photo so won't press that point.

But on the exclusion of Sarah Stanton, I don't see how Frazier could repeatedly speak of talking with her on the steps, exchanging words, making eye contact with her next to him or nearby, etc.--yet firmly says he has no idea who Prayer Man was. How does that work? 

And it is not only that logic. In his 2002 oral history for the Sixth Floor Museum, Frazier spoke of Sarah Stanton on the landing with him and was specifically asked the important question: was she (Sarah Stanton) to his left or to his right, and he answered "left". Interviewer is Gary Mack. Starting 53:11 at https://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-1/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-1.

"You were standing on the top steps, then--"

"Yes."

"Where there was actually the landing part I would--"

"Yes."

"Was there anyone back there with you?"

"Yes, there was a lady that worked up in one of the offices. And I do not remember the name."

"Was she off to your right, or off to your le---?"

(interrupting) "Left." (pointing left with left hand and left forefinger)

Frazier's left was on his east side, the opposite side of him from Prayer Man.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Karl Kinaski]

Reminder: This is what we are talking about 🤡🍌

 

IMO this Image is good for just a Rorschach-Test. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Karl Kinaski

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

 

Pat -- on Prayer Man being a man not a woman, I got that from the hairline--a male pattern baldness receding hairline at the temple is what it looks like to me-- but I concede with you that it is possible to overinterpret the information in the fuzzy photo so won't press that point.

But on the exclusion of Sarah Stanton, I don't see how Frazier could repeatedly speak of talking with her on the steps, exchanging words, making eye contact with her next to him or nearby, etc.--yet firmly says he has no idea who Prayer Man was. How does that work? 

And it is not only that logic. In his 2002 oral history for the Sixth Floor Museum, Frazier spoke of Sarah Stanton on the landing with him and was specifically asked the important question: was she (Sarah Stanton) to his left or to his right, and he answered "left". Interviewer is Gary Mack. Starting 53:11 at https://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-1/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-1.

"You were standing on the top steps, then--"

"Yes."

"Where there was actually the landing part I would--"

"Yes."

"Was there anyone back there with you?"

"Yes, there was a lady that worked up in one of the offices. And I do not remember the name."

"Was she off to your right, or off to your le---?"

(interrupting) "Left." (pointing left with left hand and left forefinger)

Frazier's left was on his east side, the opposite side of him from Prayer Man.

 

Frazier has been trying to stay out of the Prayer Man squabble. I was there when a few people tried to grill him about it. He said he did not know who it was, but felt certain he would have remembered Oswald's being on the steps. As I recall I followed up by asking if it could have been Stanton and he repeated that he didn't know who it was. So he had the opportunity to say it wasn't her but refused to do so. 

As far as left or right...she had legs, and may very well have moved from her original position when  he talked to her, or moved afterwards... IOW, it would be folly to assume his recollection of her being on his left meant she was never on his right. 

[David Von Pein]

"To answer the question about Prayer Man: I have been looking at this all day, and I can tell you this: I 100% have no idea who that person is. I can also tell you 100% that is not Lee Harvey Oswald. First, Lee was not out there. I know that to be true. Second, for anyone who thinks Prayer Man is Lee, the individual has a much larger frame than Lee." -- Buell Wesley Frazier; March 28, 2021

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https://www.facebook.com/Wheelman1963

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Edited September 25, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said:

Reminder: This is what we are talking about 🤡🍌

The famous glamorous PRAYER MAN! 

IMO this Image is good for just a Rorschach-Test. 

Good point, Karl. FWIW I have seen a presentation using the best images available that wasn't much clearer, where the presenter nevertheless ID'ed this as Oswald, claiming the shirt jewelry, face, etc, were all perfect matches. It kinda makes you wonder...what we're doing here. 

[James DiEugenio]

It is not Stanton.

That is as far as I will go but its not Stanton.

[Greg Doudna]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Frazier has been trying to stay out of the Prayer Man squabble. I was there when a few people tried to grill him about it. He said he did not know who it was, but felt certain he would have remembered Oswald's being on the steps. As I recall I followed up by asking if it could have been Stanton and he repeated that he didn't know who it was. So he had the opportunity to say it wasn't her but refused to do so. 

As far as left or right...she had legs, and may very well have moved from her original position when  he talked to her, or moved afterwards... IOW, it would be folly to assume his recollection of her being on his left meant she was never on his right. 

"As I recall I followed up by asking if it could have been Stanton and he [Frazier] repeated that he didn't know who it was. So he had the opportunity to say it wasn't her but refused to do so."

I appreciate your bringing forward this testimony of what he said, but it seems to me that could be interpreted either way as to Frazier's sense. I can see that as Frazier starting with an implied, even if unspoken, "no", followed by a repetition of what he was saying before, he doesn't know. It is as if his repetition of what he said before was "it wasn't her" in effect, rather than a refusal to say it wasn't her.

There is another film of Frazier telling of his speaking to Sarah Stanton standing next to him on that landing, starting 5:34 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61woNu98rlM. 

"I remember when the parade turned off of Houston Street on to Elm, and I had seen pictures of Jackie Kennedy and the President when they were somewhere else, not in Texas. And I made the remark to myself and to a lady I think by the name of Sarah that was standing beside me, and I said, 'Look, isn't she beautiful. She looks just like the pictures in the magazines.'"

I draw a couple of conclusions here, see if you agree. First, this exchange with Sarah (Stanton) is the same reference of the Sixth Floor oral history where he couldn't remember the woman's name next to him but did say, speaking from clear memory, she was to his left. And second, this exchange is timed here to when the motorcade passed by the front of TSBD, would that be maybe ca. 60 (?) seconds or so earlier than the Darnell images which have Prayer Man to Frazier's right, and only maybe ca. 30 (?) seconds earlier than the Weigman photo which also has Prayer Man in the same position to Frazier's right? 

You make a point which I do concede in the hypothetical: you suggest Sarah Stanton could in that intervening ca. 30 seconds have moved, walked from where she was on Frazier's left on the landing, around or behind Frazier to now stand in the corner to his right, the location of Prayer Man, and maybe Frazier didn't remember that movement. OK. She was definitely to his left, not in Prayer Man's position, at the only time Frazier did remember her. But because of the uncertainty, it isn't excluded that she could have walked over to be in Prayer Man's location. But Frazier seems to have lost all memory of it if so, even though Frazier spoke of speaking to Sarah Stanton standing next to him when a woman rushed up saying that JFK had been shot, which would be either just at the time of or within seconds of the time of Darnell's Prayer Man (start 35:02 at this of Frazier in 2013: https://www.c-span.org/video/?313792-1/lee-harvey-oswald-kennedy-assassination).

How could Frazier remember speaking to Sarah Stanton standing next to him, and at the same time insist he has no possible idea who Prayer Man could be, if that was who he had spoken to in the person of Sarah Stanton?

Stancak identifies Sarah Stanton as a woman standing to the immediate left of Frazier in the Darnell footage, mostly obscured by a man standing in front of her (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24615-mrs-stanton-mrs-sanders-where-are-you/). That would agree with the only position Frazier confirms for Sarah Stanton's location.

For her to have moved to be in the Prayer Man position it would have to be reconstructed that Frazier not only did not remember that, but he actually talked to her in that opposite position on his right exactly where Prayer Man is and also no longer remembers that even after talking to her there.

Possible? Who knows, maybe. Is that what happened? Who knows.

I suppose if Oswald is judged decisively ruled out for Prayer Man on other grounds, then it almost must be by default (due to the difficulty finding any other identification) Sarah Stanton moved to become Prayer Man (even though Buell Wesley Frazier had amnesia concerning her in Prayer Man's position despite remembering having turned to Sarah Stanton and spoken to her standing next to him at one of his two sides in the seconds surrounding Darnell--the only known position for her told by Frazier in an earlier exchange being his left side).

(And back to the hairline: is that apparent male-pattern receding-temple hairline an optical illusion in the photograph? Maybe? But it looks like a receding hairline at the temple to me.)

There is also this. Bart Kamp in Prayer Man: More than a Fuzzy Picture, p. 46, quotes from a Larry Hancock comment on a blog post of Nov 5, 2015 on Larry's website at this link: https://larryhancock.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/2015-jfk-lancer-conference/#comments. That comment of Larry is at Dec 6, 2015, 9:00 pm, and there is another followup at Dec 7, 2015, 5:34 pm. First the Dec 6, 2015 of Larry Hancock, in response to someone asking, Did you get to ask him about Prayer Man? (bold added by me):

"Yes and actually he has been asked that before. We submitted a fairly long set of other questions to him and hope to actually get answers in writing, not just by way of his presentation remarks. As to prayer man, Frazier has been asked that several times during the last year as well as being shown photos, although possibly not the best available. 

"Frazier says that he went out on the steps and was intent on looking out and down, he can identify folks in front of him such as Lovelady but he does not recall ever turning around and looking to his side or behind him so he has no direct recollection of anyone at all standing where PM appears to be located. He can’t make any identification from the photo…which is no big surprise. He also has no idea of whether that person had been there for a time or might have come out when everyone else was on the steps. I did get the impression that the steps filled up with people from the building and that it was unlikely any outsider had pushed through to the top of the steps so whoever it was somebody from inside the building...

Dec 7, 2015, Larry Hancock:

"I suppose I need to make the qualification that my quoted comment is only my impression of what Frazier was saying – beyond the point that he definitely could not identify the person designated as prayer man. He stated that personally and separately to a specific question. As to the rest, that’s a composite of remarks he made and responses to various questions from the audience. He spoke at some length as to why he had decided to stay at the top of the steps and let everybody else go out and down…so he would have the best view of the street. He also said he was focused on the street and motorcade and not generally looking around himself at the time, much less behind him. That’s the best I can give on the subject at this point..."

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Pat Speer]

16 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

"As I recall I followed up by asking if it could have been Stanton and he [Frazier] repeated that he didn't know who it was. So he had the opportunity to say it wasn't her but refused to do so."

I appreciate your bringing forward this testimony of what he said, but it seems to me that could be interpreted either way as to Frazier's sense. I can see that as Frazier starting with an implied, even if unspoken, "no", followed by a repetition of what he was saying before, he doesn't know. It is as if his repetition of what he said before was "it wasn't her" in effect, rather than a refusal to say it wasn't her.

There is another film of Frazier telling of his speaking to Sarah Stanton standing next to him on that landing, starting 5:34 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61woNu98rlM. 

"I remember when the parade turned off of Houston Street on to Elm, and I had seen pictures of Jackie Kennedy and the President when they were somewhere else, not in Texas. And I made the remark to myself and to a lady I think by the name of Sarah that was standing beside me, and I said, 'Look, isn't she beautiful. She looks just like the pictures in the magazines.'"

I draw a couple of conclusions here, see if you agree. First, this exchange with Sarah (Stanton) is the same reference of the Sixth Floor oral history where he couldn't remember the woman's name next to him but did say, speaking from clear memory, she was to his left. And second, this exchange is timed here to when the motorcade passed by the front of TSBD, would that be maybe ca. 60 (?) seconds or so earlier than the Darnell images which have Prayer Man to Frazier's right, and only maybe ca. 30 (?) seconds earlier than the Weigman photo which also has Prayer Man in the same position to Frazier's right? 

You make a point which I do concede in the hypothetical: you suggest Sarah Stanton could in that intervening ca. 30 seconds have moved, walked from where she was on Frazier's left on the landing, around or behind Frazier to now stand in the corner to his right, the location of Prayer Man, and maybe Frazier didn't remember that movement. OK. She was definitely to his left, not in Prayer Man's position, at the only time Frazier did remember her. But because of the uncertainty, it isn't excluded that she could have walked over to be in Prayer Man's location. But Frazier seems to have lost all memory of it if so, even though Frazier spoke of speaking to Sarah Stanton standing next to him when a woman rushed up saying that JFK had been shot, which would be either just at the time of or within seconds of the time of Darnell's Prayer Man (start 35:02 at this of Frazier in 2013: https://www.c-span.org/video/?313792-1/lee-harvey-oswald-kennedy-assassination).

How could Frazier remember speaking to Sarah Stanton standing next to him, and at the same time insist he has no possible idea who Prayer Man could be, if that was who he had spoken to in the person of Sarah Stanton?

Stancak identifies Sarah Stanton as a woman standing to the immediate left of Frazier in the Darnell footage, mostly obscured by a man standing in front of her (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24615-mrs-stanton-mrs-sanders-where-are-you/). That would agree with the only position Frazier confirms for Sarah Stanton's location.

For her to have moved to be in the Prayer Man position it would have to be reconstructed that Frazier not only did not remember that, but he actually talked to her in that opposite position on his right exactly where Prayer Man is and also no longer remembers that even after talking to her there.

Possible? Who knows, maybe. Is that what happened? Who knows.

I suppose if Oswald is judged decisively ruled out for Prayer Man on other grounds, then it almost must be by default (due to the difficulty finding any other identification) Sarah Stanton moved to become Prayer Man (even though Buell Wesley Frazier had amnesia concerning her in Prayer Man's position despite remembering having turned to Sarah Stanton and spoken to her standing next to him at one of his two sides in the seconds surrounding Darnell, the only known position for her told by Frazier in an earlier exchange being his left side).

(And back to the hairline: is that apparent male-pattern receding-temple hairline an optical illusion in the photograph? Maybe? But it looks like a receding hairline at the temple to me.)

There is also this. Bart Kamp in Prayer Man: More than a Fuzzy Picture, p. 46, quotes from a Larry Hancock comment on a blog post of Nov 5, 2015 on Larry's website at this link: https://larryhancock.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/2015-jfk-lancer-conference/#comments. That comment of Larry is at Dec 6, 2015, 9:00 pm, and there is another followup at Dec 7, 2015, 5:34 pm. First the Dec 6, 2015 of Larry Hancock, in response to someone asking, Did you get to ask him about Prayer Man? (bold added by me):

"Yes and actually he has been asked that before. We submitted a fairly long set of other questions to him and hope to actually get answers in writing, not just by way of his presentation remarks. As to prayer man, Frazier has been asked that several times during the last year as well as being shown photos, although possibly not the best available. 

"Frazier says that he went out on the steps and was intent on looking out and down, he can identify folks in front of him such as Lovelady but he does not recall ever turning around and looking to his side or behind him so he has no direct recollection of anyone at all standing where PM appears to be located. He can’t make any identification from the photo…which is no big surprise. He also has no idea of whether that person had been there for a time or might have come out when everyone else was on the steps. I did get the impression that the steps filled up with people from the building and that it was unlikely any outsider had pushed through to the top of the steps so whoever it was somebody from inside the building...

Dec 7, 2015, Larry Hancock:

"I suppose I need to make the qualification that my quoted comment is only my impression of what Frazier was saying – beyond the point that he definitely could not identify the person designated as prayer man. He stated that personally and separately to a specific question. As to the rest, that’s a composite of remarks he made and responses to various questions from the audience. He spoke at some length as to why he had decided to stay at the top of the steps and let everybody else go out and down…so he would have the best view of the street. He also said he was focused on the street and motorcade and not generally looking around himself at the time, much less behind him. That’s the best I can give on the subject at this point..."

 

It's a mystery to me why so much energy has been spent on this issue. The figure can not be identified as Oswald. And the closest person to the figure has specified numerous times that it is not Oswald. 

It kinda reminds me of that movie line--I don't remember where it's from. But it's a guy desperate for attention, who is told "I wouldn't go out with you if you were the last man on Earth" or something equally harsh. And his response is "So you're telling me there's a chance!" 

[Charles Blackmon]

[Pat Speer]

12 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Thanks, Charles. I finally watched the Dumb and Dumber movies with my son awhile back. I enjoyed them more than I would have expected. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Roger Odisio]

On 9/24/2023 at 2:24 PM, Pat Speer said:

Greetings, Roger. I've been a bit peevish lately, so I hope I don't come across as arrogant as I fear I am. 

1. You say the second-floor encounter was "concocted". This seems ridiculous to anyone outside the Prayer Man bubble. The second-floor encounter has been a cornerstone of CT argument since the beginning. For a number of reasons. First, both Truly and Baker said Oswald did not appear to be sweaty or nervous, which argues against his having just raced down the stairs. And second, his presence in the lunch room, after Adams and Styles ran down the stairs, and before Baker and Truly ran up the stairs, with no one running down the stairs in between (according to Garner), cuts the likelihood he ran down the stairs to almost zero. The lunch room encounter is strong evidence for his innocence. And this in  opposition to the Prayer Man scenario, where his alibi is switched out for his being on the front stairs--which can never be proved, as clear versions of the Prayer Man images have been located that remain too blurry--and where he was observed by no one. It doesn't make sense. it's like setting two birds free to reach for one in the bush. 

2. Your assertion the encounter was concocted to show that Oswald ran down the stairs is also quite silly. The encounter happened on the second floor, and Oswald was not visibly winded or sweaty. From the earliest days, it raised doubts about Oswald's presence on the sixth floor. If "they" had taken the time to concoct a false story proving Oswald ran down the stairs, wouldn't they have put him on a higher floor--say the fourth--and have him running down the stairs past Baker and Truly while saying he heard something happened outside and wanted to see what happened, or some such? I mean, even a child knows how to lie--the dog ate my homework--and doesn't present a scenario at odds with the desired goal--I misplaced my homework and couldn't find it and maybe the dog ate it. 

3. It is not a fact that Oswald said he was on the steps during his first interrogation. It is a slight possibility. That's it. The reports are riddled with errors. Hosty's notes are undoubtedly notes written in preparation of a report a day or so after the shooting. They are not his original notes, according to him, and Hosty himself and common sense dictates that notes are not taken in full sentences. So there's a possibility the notes are accurate, and everyone else lied. And there's a possibility he realized his notes were inaccurate, and that he opted to keep his incorrect recollection out of his report. And there's a third possibility his notes have been misunderstood, and weren't meant to say what so many think they say. In any event, it is sloppy, at best, to say the first of these possibilities is a fact. Here's an analogy. Say a member of the FBI scratched some notes saying George DeMohrenschildt said Oswald said he was going to kill Kennedy, that were discovered years later. Say that the final published report of this FBI agent said that Oswald NEVER said he was going to kill Kennedy. Say, moreover, that this agent wrote a book, and did numerous presentations in which he discussed the case, and always said that DeMohrenschildt said Oswald NEVER discussed killing Kennedy. Which would you believe? What the agent, and many other agents, said--that DeMohrenschildt said Oswald NEVER discussed killing Kennedy. Or would you crawl down a rabbit  hole and assume the agent's unpublished notes were telling the truth and try to figure out WHY everyone has been lying about this? Because, you know, unpublished notes scratched onto a pad are never in error, and are to be trusted beyond everything said and written both before and after...

 

This thread is eerily similar to a previous one between you and me, Pat, about Vicki Adams' story.  

 

You and I agree that Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor, did not shoot JFK, and did not descend the steps afterward.  That is the most important part of the whole story.  It destroys the WR by itself.

 

The WR tried to discredit Adams by claiming she said she saw Shelley and Lovelady upon reaching the first floor and since they weren't there until later, she must have come down the steps later than she thought, giving Oswald time to descend before her and Styles.

 

You thought Adams *did* see S&L, but that does not discredit her timing because S&L were indeed there at the time Adams and Styles arrived on the first floor, rather than later, as the WR claimed,

 

I think the WC simply inserted the statement about seeing S&L into Adams testimony without her knowledge to discredit her. Both Adams and Styles denied to Barry Ernest that they saw S&L when they reached the first floor.  Garner corroborated Adams' timing to Ernest but was ignored by the WC.

 

Both of our claims leaves intact the assertion that Oswald did not descend the steps, which is what matters.

 

This time we start with the same agreement.  

 

You say the second floor encounter happened and has always supported Oswald innocence. Which version of the encounter do you mean?

 

The key question is did Oswald arrive on the second floor by descending the steps after the murder, or by coming up the steps, as Greg says.  

 

You cite Garner for saying no one went down the steps after Adams and Styles started down.  She was still on the 4th floor when Truly and a cop reached her. That means, you say, the likelihood Oswald went down the steps as the WR claims is "near zero".

 

Of course.

 

In discussing the second floor encounter a distinction must be made, by those who think it happened, as to the *direction* Oswald was coming from when seen by Truly and the cop. 

 

Greg's version supports Oswald's innocence and leaves room for Prayerman.  Your claim that "the second-floor encounter has been a cornerstone of CT argument since the beginning" can be true only if you mean Greg's version, not that in the WR.

 

Obviously the WC published their version of Oswald coming down the steps and running into Truly and a cop because they thought it would add credibility to the story they were telling. They had no witness who could place Oswald on the 6th floor.  They wanted to say something about his whereabouts during the incident. 

 

I think they made up the WR version, but can live with the possibility of Greg's version, since it changes nothing important about the question of Oswald's guilt or innocence.

 

We've already gone round and round about your attempts to dismiss Hosty's note and I see you're repeating the same points as before.  I'll pass this time. 

 

I repeat. Prayerman is consistent with Greg's version of the second floor encounter, not in opposition.

 

 

[Charles Blackmon]

2 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Thanks, Charles. I finally watched the Dumb and Dumber movies with my son awhile back. I enjoyed them more than I would have expected. 

I would watch it again tonite but my wife..well you know.

[Tom Gram]

19 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The only images which may show Oswald on the steps are too blurry to provide a positive ID, and can not be improved upon to the extent necessary to provide a positive ID. 

…

There's no there there. Barring a confession from Frazier, or the release of an unpublished manuscript by Hosty or some such thing, it's a dead end. 

Nonsense. Unlike the vast majority of issues in this case, the identity of PM is almost certainly a solvable problem. I know you’ll probably object by saying that a shady money-grubbing guy once showed a group of researchers a previously unseen copy of the Darnell film and they couldn’t identify Oswald, but that’s total weaksauce, and irrelevant. The only way to identify PM is to obtain the original Darnell and Weigman films from NBC; and Weigman may be even more important than Darnell.

Modern image enhancement and analysis techniques can resolve a fly’s eyeball off an elephant’s ass. Ok not quite, but the point is that even a modest increase in quality would be more than enough to clarify features that could either eliminate or strongly suggest Oswald as a candidate. We might even be able to get a positive ID.

It can be done, but not without HD scans of the original films. However, NBC refuses to release the films, even though they are assassination records and belong at NARA. I think we can all agree that preserving the photographic record of Dealey Plaza is critically important.

Pursuit of the films is a win-win for everyone. It’s like a hold-em hand where you can check the river and get a chance to win the World Series of Poker, or a free lottery ticket. Even if there’s a .000001% chance of it being Oswald, that’s a small chance of a full-scale reinvestigation of the JFK case, and a near-guarantee to solve a major unsolved mystery and end the debate for good. What’s not to like? 

Hell I’d like to see Gerald Posner get on TV for the 60th and call out NBC for “facilitating the spread of conspiracy theories” by withholding the films, or some other crap like that. It’ll never happen, but it should. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Tom Gram