Prayer Man More Than A Fuzzy Picture

[Chris Davidson]

19 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

You discovered the existence of a person in the Darnell Prayer Man’s position in Weigman, Chris?

Why is it on all the photos of the Weigman stills on Bart Kamp’s website that I checked, I can’t see any person there, only that spot of light?

Are you sure anything of a person is there other than that light? Explain please? Using a photo(s) of Weigman alone please?

I suggest you research the answers to your own questions.

 

[Greg Doudna]

40 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

I suggest you research the answers to your own questions.

GD: is this certainly from information from the Weigman frame alone, without added information or photoshopping? If so, and if that is verified and verifiable, I am happy to accept that and beg forgiveness for the "dumb question". But just for the record, is it? 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Chris Davidson]

12 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

Gee Greg, you just pulled your previous response questioning my integrity.

You really should check the sources you are using and ask why the information you seek is not there.

All your answers have been well-documented by me in the past.

[David Josephs]

A while back we were provided a very high resolution image of a frame of PM which I also attempted to improve.

For the person's right hand to be in the light it must extend beyond the shade border.

 

 

His presence was known for a while it seems.  Yet again, the reflected light must suggest that this person was much closer to the steps and to the East, than we think

Yes?

Plus, this image also acknowledges the strange and sudden change in location for Lovelady.

@Jean Ceulemans  is this simply perspective or something else

Edited September 28, 2023 by David Josephs

[Greg Doudna]

48 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

A while back we were provided a very high resolution image of a frame of PM which I also attempted to improve.

For the person's right hand to be in the light it must extend beyond the shade border.

 

 

His presence was known for a while it seems.  Yet again, the reflected light must suggest that this person was much closer to the steps and to the East, than we think

Yes?

David, thank you for this. Is photo "1" at upper left of above after your attempt to improve? Is the faint image of what looks like a face and two forearms in that version of Weigman from information internal to Weigman and replicable by anyone? If so, so be it and that answers my question, its Prayer Man. 

Also, the bright spot of light in "1" is to the left of the vertical corner behind it where the wall meets glass partition. If this is from information internal to Weigman, that answers in the negative my question of whether that light could be shining through the glass partition from something inside the building, and verifies it has to do with a human there.

p.s. David, is "K" a second figure pulled out of the "blackness" by some (mysterious to me) processes of photo information-extraction? He is called a "tall man". Would that be Buell Wesley Frazier? 

I assume the Large-Framed Figure to Frazier's left in Darnell who agrees perfectly with Sarah Stanton, and Pauline Sanders, not identified as in the "lighted" area in front of the shadow in the lettered key of Weigman/Altgens6, must also be, like Frazier, back in the shadow darkness, and those two figures' presence not brought out in the photo enhancement of Weigman/Altgens6? 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Jean Ceulemans]

On 9/28/2023 at 3:24 AM, Pat Speer said:

see above

Pat, can you help me out here ?

Both Molina statements :

- the short/undated one mentions Williams

- the other dated 23/11 does not mention Williams 

It would make sense if the short one was done later and he had forgotten about Williams, but this is not the case

Just trying to make sense...

Jean

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Jean Ceulemans]

43 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

A while back we were provided a very high resolution image of a frame of PM which I also attempted to improve.

For the person's right hand to be in the light it must extend beyond the shade border.

 

 

His presence was known for a while it seems.  Yet again, the reflected light must suggest that this person was much closer to the steps and to the East, than we think

Yes?

Plus, this image also acknowledges the strange and sudden change in location for Lovelady.

@Jean Ceulemans  is this simply perspective or something else

Thank you for those, very interesting.  I don't think it's just perspective, looks like he did move, but I have to check my documentation on that (the PM subject is very new to me)

[Chris Davidson]

41 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

 

 

 

His presence was known for a while it seems. 

 

 

 

Yes David,

That document was around long before I located "J" in Wiegman.

Except no-one knew about this document afaik(made it public), until Bart gained access to Blunt's collection and revealed it many years after 2007.

 

 

 

[Pat Speer]

58 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

Pat, can you help me out here ?

Both Molina statements :

- the short/undated one mentions Williams

- the other dated 23/11 does not mention Williams 

It would make sense if the short one was done later and he had forgotten about Williams, but this is not the case

Just trying to make sense...

Jean

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you think he was taking about Bonnie Ray Williams, or Otis Williams? Here's what I have on Otis Williams.

 

Otis Williams (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p.64) “at the time the Presidential procession passed the Texas School Book Depository Building, Williams was on the front steps of the building. The Presidential car had just passed the building a few seconds and was out of sight over the embankment when Williams heard three loud blasts. He thought these blasts came from the location of the court house. He did not look up and immediately went back into the building into his office on the second floor. A few minutes later, Detectives came into the building and he went with a Detective to check the second floor of the building.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box folder 19 file 20 of the Dallas JFK  Archive) "He heard three shots that sounded like they were coming from the west side of the Texas School Book Depository. The president's car had gotten out of Mr. Williams' view when he heard the shots. Mr. Williams then came back into the building, and went to his office on the second floor. He then went to the fourth floor after hearing that the President had been shot. He used the stairway to go to the fourth floor, but stated that he did not see anyone on the stairway." (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H683) “On November 22, 1963, at the time the Presidential motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository, I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building. I do not recall who was standing at either side of me, but I do know that Mrs. Robert E. Saunders, also an employee of the Texas School Book Depository, viewed the motorcade. Just after the presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm Street embankment I heard three loud blasts. I thought these blasts or shots came from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street. I did not then know that President Kennedy had been shot. I remained momentarily on the steps and then returned inside the building.” (No More Silence p.116-120, published 1998) “when the motorcade came around the corner and then made that bend to get to the underpass, I had a clear view as it passed by of the President and all in the car, and then it went behind a little wall going toward the underpass. Probably five or ten seconds later is when I first thought I heard the shots. The first one I assumed someone threw a firecracker… It was about five or ten seconds before he was hit when he went out of my sight. I definitely heard three shots. Fact is, as soon as the third shot happened, and everybody commenced milling around, I thought it came from the underpass. I entered the building immediately, climbed up the stairs back where the warehouse elevator was which led to the sixth floor and went up to the fourth floor, which was the first one I could see from to see the underpass. After I got up there and saw that nothing was going on on the underpass, I turned around and came back down to the office and called my wife. Soon, while we were talking, people came in, officers rushed in, and I had to get off the phone... I could have gone down the steps while Oswald came down, but he came down on the elevator. Anyway, I walked down the steps but didn't see him or anything."

 

Now I'm not sure what to make of this. It appears his story changed from his going up to the fourth floor after being told JFK had been shot, to his going directly up to the fourth floor after the shots rang out. I suspect the former. He was not noticed by Adams, Styles, or Garner in the moments right after the shooting. 

He was consistent on one point, however. He went straight in and up the stairs to the second floor. Now, it seems obvious he would take the front stairs--perhaps that's why he wasn't interviewed by the WC. But he later said he'd taken the back stairs. 

If the former is true--if he took the front stairs and didn't see Oswald--then his statements fail to support the Prayer Man theory. 

But if the latter is true--that he took the back stairs and didn't see Oswald, well, that's a bit of a puzzle. It could mean Oswald was not in the lunch room. Or it could mean Oswald arrived seconds after he passed. Or it could mean he'd passed Oswald near the front of the building. 

P.S. It seems probable he took the front stairs. The TSBD offices where he worked were in the middle of the building, and he would have been going way out of his way to take the back stairs...assuming, that is, that he first went to his office, as originally claimed. Oh yeah, this reminds me. IF he actually had raced to the fourth floor first, as claimed decades later, well, why the heck didn't he just take the elevator right by the door?

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Chris Davidson]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

Try it on another frame from a different source.

Is there some-one there?

[Jean Ceulemans]

50 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you think he was taking about Bonnie Ray Williams, or Otis Williams? Here's what I have on Otis Williams.

 

Thanks for your reply, got him now.  I was looking at the wrong page on your website.   I was tracking O. Williams' movements when I noticed that Molina had given two different statements : one mentioning Williams and one without mentioning Williams.  And because one statement was undated I was kinda lost.  It would be reasonable if he had forgotten about Williams if that one statement was weeks (or months) after the other.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Greg Doudna]

37 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Try it on another frame from a different source.

Is there some-one there?

Thanks Chris, I see it. Yes, looks like the same figure as in Darnell.  

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

David, thank you for this. Is photo "1" at upper left of above after your attempt to improve?

That was the file original.  Sometimes adding Sepia or a Green tint helps with detail.  The one I posted earlier in the thread - close up - was as good as I could get it (edit: "it"=the PM image, not this particular scan).

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

p.s. David, is "K" a second figure pulled out of the "blackness" by some (mysterious to me) processes of photo information-extraction? He is called a "tall man". Would that be Buell Wesley Frazier?

This is where Frazier put himself, all the while stating that Lovelady was a step or two down.

Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.
 

.      

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by David Josephs

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 8/8/2023 at 7:38 PM, Pat Speer said:

FWIW, from studying the films, witness statements and testimony, it's clear to me that Lovelady and Shelley made a brisk walk around the outside of the building and entered through the west roll-up door while en route to a phone. They were then spotted by Adams, who quickly ran outside. They were then approached by Baker and Truly, who asked Shelley to guard the front elevator and stairs. This lasted but a minute or two. When Sawyer came in, Shelley took him up to the fourth floor. In any event, this puts Shelley at the bottom of the front stairs when Oswald is purported to have come down those stairs and exited the building. 

As a result, I suspect Oswald was telling the truth when he said he went outside with Shelley. I mean, they could have been chatting as they walked for a sec. So...did Shelley lie about this? I suspect so. Oswald was dead. The authorities said he was guilty. If Shelley were to have admitted he'd let Oswald pass or even said he could go home his life would have been severely disrupted, perhaps even ruined. 

Pat,

Have you actually made the Shelley/Lovelady walk (at a brisk pace) yourself? Is it possible to leave the front steps of the TSBD, head west down the Elm Street extension, dip into the parking lot, turn back and head into the roll-up doors on the west side of the TSBD in time to intercept a "running" Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles as they headed west towards the parking lot?

I honestly don't know if the timing works - does it?

If so, then your explanation of Shelley and Lovelady's movements makes sense. I've always been under the impression that they were likely the two white men near the back elevators seen by Baker before he headed up the back stairs: 

SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.

Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

However, for Baker to have seen Shelley and Lovelady either implies that Shelley and Lovelady flew around the outside of the TSBD, or that Baker and Truly did not start up the back stairs nearly as soon as the conventional narrative states.

Personally, I've long suspected that Baker and Truly only headed up the back stairs a few (or more) minutes after the assassination, and NOT in the immediate aftermath.

If I'm right, then that alone would explain the Warren Commission's determination to crush Victoria Adams' testimony: her timing not only destroyed their claim that "Oswald" immediately descended the stairs, but also undermined the claim that Truly and Baker flew up the stairs in time to intercept a descending "Oswald" in the 2nd floor lunchroom.  

 

 

[Pat Speer]

12 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Pat,

Have you actually made the Shelley/Lovelady walk (at a brisk pace) yourself? Is it possible to leave the front steps of the TSBD, head west down the Elm Street extension, dip into the parking lot, turn back and head into the roll-up doors on the west side of the TSBD in time to intercept a "running" Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles as they headed west towards the parking lot?

I honestly don't know if the timing works - does it?

If so, then your explanation of Shelley and Lovelady's movements makes sense. I've always been under the impression that they were likely the two white men near the back elevators seen by Baker before he headed up the back stairs: 

SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.

Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

However, for Baker to have seen Shelley and Lovelady either implies that Shelley and Lovelady flew around the outside of the TSBD, or that Baker and Truly did not start up the back stairs nearly as soon as the conventional narrative states.

Personally, I've long suspected that Baker and Truly only headed up the back stairs a few (or more) minutes after the assassination, and NOT in the immediate aftermath.

If I'm right, then that alone would explain the Warren Commission's determination to crush Victoria Adams' testimony: her timing not only destroyed their claim that "Oswald" immediately descended the stairs, but also undermined the claim that Truly and Baker flew up the stairs in time to intercept a descending "Oswald" in the 2nd floor lunchroom.  

 

 

No, I have not done a re-enactment. The TSBD had an extension on the west side that no longer exists. I have walked around the building, however, and can verify that someone could leave the front of the building at a fast walk and come in from the side within a minute and a half to two minutes. Perhaps less. Maybe I'll time it the next time I'm in Dallas.