Prayer Man More Than A Fuzzy Picture

[David Von Pein]

Even though I don't believe for one second that "Prayer Man" is Lee Harvey Oswald, I still would very much like to see the original versions of the Darnell and Wiegman films, and I'd very much like to have those films enhanced and restored to the best possible quality.

I certainly think that any such project, if a definitive "Is it Oswald or isn't it?" identification of the Prayer Man figure can be obtained, will prove very disappointing to the people who keep insisting that the blurry Prayer Man figure has got to be Lee Oswald. But I certainly am not against such a project taking place. Not in the least. As I've said before, I'm all for it.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Roger Odisio]

8 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Are you trying to say the mucky-muck screening that fell flat never happened? 

No, I'm saying I don't care.   The information necessary for me to care isn't there.

You haven't identified the person allegedly with the film so he or she can be questioned.  The motives of this person are unclear.  The film in question is a copy, which most experts think is unlikely to be sufficient for ID.  The people who allegedly saw the presentation are unnamed.  

In short the reason the event "fell flat" is utterly unclear, if it happened as you describe.

At this point it's a diversion from the real job of IDing Prayerman.  

[Roger Odisio]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Even though I don't believe for one second that "Prayer Man" is Lee Harvey Oswald, I still would very much like to see the original versions of the Darnell and Wiegman films, and I'd very much like to have those films enhanced and restored to the best possible quality.

I certainly think that any such project, if a definitive "Is it Oswald or isn't it?" identification of the Prayer Man figure can be obtained, will prove very disappointing to the people who keep insisting that the blurry Prayer Man figure has got to be Lee Oswald. But I certainly am not against such a project taking place. Not in the least. As I've said before, I'm all for it.

 

That's big of you, David, and should be a lesson to any researcher.  I mean it.  If Prayerman is Oswald it will destroy a lot of what you have written.

[James DiEugenio]

What do you mean "a lot of"?

[Roger Odisio]

10 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

What do you mean "a lot of"?

As opposed to "everything", Jim.  I'm not prepared to go through David's 7,400 posts here and his voluminous web sites to claim he never said anything that could even be thought to be true or reasonable.  Put whatever percentage on "lot" that you wish.

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

If Prayerman is Oswald it will destroy a lot of what you have written.

Uh, yeah.  I'd be a bit more concerned with the WC, Church, Rockefeller & the HSCA reports fostered upon the world as complete garbage and only serves as the centerpiece of the coverup.

Reminds me a question I got in a philosophy of Religions class:

If G~d was to reveal himself to all of humanity so there was no question, what does that do to Faith?

Maybe finally learning that Faith in Gov't investigations and their exposure of "truth" has been a sham since the beginning of Gov't.  Building castles on quicksand only leads to the whole thing sinking into oblivion.

[Greg Doudna]

Roy E. Lewis, "last one out front", standing at the top of the front entrance

I mentioned that I went through the individual statements and information of every woman TSBD employee and found every one was excluded as being Prayer Man. But in turning to the men TSBD employees, I came to focus attention on one male TSBD employee, Roy Lewis. He was 18 years old at the time, TSBD's youngest male employee. He said he was on the top level of the steps, and he has not otherwise been satisfactorily identified in any photo. He said he was the last TSBD employee out the front doors to watch the parade. He was the same height as Oswald, a bit huskier, said he spoke to no one on the steps, said he did not see Oswald there, and from photos of him from the next hour or so his shirt and sweater could have a similar drooping neckline look as Prayer Man. 

I put quite a bit of study into whether Roy Lewis could possibly be Prayer Man. My conclusion is Prayer Man was probably not Roy Lewis, for reasons explained below. The "probably" rather than certainty reflects that on present information none of the four reasons seem individually quite airtight. (Digital prints from the original of Darnell could resolve that.) 

A first reason is Roy Lewis's skin color as African American. Prayer Man's arms and head look light, like Prayer Man was white, and that is what is generally understood. But is a light skin color of Prayer Man in fact an exclusively correct interpretation of the photos (which would exclude Roy Lewis)? Or could that be optical illusion, or an artifact of processing and filtering necessary to bring out the images in poor photos? I am not sufficiently expert to know; expert opinion on this point welcome and of interest. 

A second reason is the hair of Roy Lewis, a close-cut Afro, does not show the distinctive receding at the temples (early stage male pattern baldness) that Prayer Man seems to have (in agreement with Oswald). But again, given the poor quality of the photos, is that decisive? But it looks that way. 

Third, because of where on that top level Roy Lewis said he was in his statements and interviews: in the middle (never in a corner or at one end). He associated himself as standing with office women of the second floor also on the steps, and they were clustered predominantly toward the east end, or center such as Sarah Stanton, not west in the corner where Prayer Man was. In later years Roy Lewis said he could not remember specific persons next to him other than women from the second floor though at one point he said he thought he remembered Frazier on one side of him. 

And fourth, following the shots, Lewis says he followed "the women" in running toward the Grassy Knoll. From Lewis's statements and description I believe it likely he was not on the steps at all by the time of the Darnell photo, because by that point large numbers of people are running toward the Grassy Knoll as seen in the Crouch film, Lewis maybe among them in that Crouch film though I am not aware Lewis has yet been identified in the Crouch film.

Lewis is not visible in either Altgens6 or Wiegman even though he was on that top level somewhere along with Frazier and Sarah Stanton (Large-Framed Figure to the left of Frazier). Altgens6 is missing Frazier and Large-Framed Figure (Sarah Stanton) in the black in the back, and Lewis would be equally invisible in that same black in the back too. In Wiegman, Lewis either would be slightly too far east to be in line of sight of Wiegman's camera, or alternatively perhaps hidden standing behind and mostly blocked to the camera by Large-Framed Figure (Sarah Stanton). Lewis at about the same height as Oswald (according to Lewis) at 5'9" would be able to see over Large-Framed Figure/Sarah Stanton's height of 5'5 or 5'6" even if he were directly behind her.

Lewis in his FBI statement of CE 1381:

"On November 22, 1963 at approximately 12:25 PM I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository Building to watch President John F. Kennedy come by the building in a motorcade."

Lewis in Sneed, No More Silence (1998):

"I was one of the last ones out of the building before the motorcade arrived ... when I came out, I was standing with some ladies from up in the offices right in the middle of the steps in front of the building that led to the sidewalk beyond the glass door."

From a video interview of Lewis in 2016, at age 70, by Larry Rivera (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZOBn8wcIJU ). At 33:16f:

"I was standing on top of the steps where you go in, I was on the outside."

On the outside?

"Yeah I was on the outside." 

About in between first or second step?

"No, I was on the first step up there, the first step.

OK the first step--

"--before you get ready to step off--"

That's right--

"Yeah I was on the first step."

At 36:25 Lewis incorrectly identifies himself in a photo as Carl Edward Jones visible in Weigman against the west wall. (That could be cited as an argument that Lewis was compatible with having been at the west like Prayer Man?) 

And Bart Kamp's new book, Prayer Man: More than a Fuzzy Picture, publishes transcriptions of interviews of Ed Ledoux of Roy Lewis in 2018 never before publicly available (p. 49f). Here are some excerpts from that:

"I don't remember who was standing in front of me but I think Wes Frazier was standing on the side of me and I believe Billy Lovelace ... What was his name Lovelace?

Yeah, Billy Lovelady

"Yeah, Lovelady. I think he was standing on one side of me and Wes was on one side. One of them was standing beside or behind me. I can't remember which one."

(. . .)

So after the last one [shot], what happened? Did anybody say anything? Did you hear people talk? Did somebody say that sounds like shots?

"No, let me tell you what happened. We all ran towards the grassy knoll.

You and all the people on the steps?

"That's right. First of all, the women in front, from upstairs came up and started running that way too.

(. . .)

"[L]ike I said, I was one of the last ones out of the building ... I think I mean I knew I was the last one out but ...

You were outside ... now think about it, you were outside. Did you hear the shots? Did you step out when you heard something?

"Yeah, I stepped out, yeah right as I heard the first shot. I stepped out of the building. I was standing on the top step.

(. . .) 

"I stepped out the front door and I was standing out on the front steps up there.

Sure, I remember you said you were the last one out.

"Right. I was.

Do you remember who was in front of you?

"...No, because I was, eh... I don't remember. Because I wasn't paying much attention.

(. . .)

Do you remember when you got outside, how long it was before the limo came?

"No...oh. Only a minute or two or seconds, it wasn't long.

(. . .)

Do you remember who was out on the steps? Do you remember seeing Shelley, Buell Frazier or any of the ladies out there?

Well, some of the ladies; I don't remember their names.

(. . .)

When you were out on the steps you did not speak with anybody?

"No.

(. . .)

What did you exactly see when the limo went past. Did you get a view of the President? Were you able to see him?

"Yeah, I got a view of his back and the side of his head. And then after the shots I remember seeing his head snap and I thought Jackie was trying to get out of the limo, but they were saying that she was trying to get part of his head that had come off, I don't know.

Right, that's what they said that she was trying to get a piece or chunk of his head of[f] the trunk.

"All I saw was him, the last thing I saw do was brush his hair to the side. That's when the shots rang.

(. . .)

How long was it before you left the steps and ran down that way?

"A few seconds.

(. . .)

When was the first time you saw Roy Truly, was that when you came back to the buildlng?

"Right.

(. . .)'

Very interesting as you were the last one out that door.

"Right.

And standing at the back. Where, you know, you can see everything.

"Right.

And you knew who came in... so did anybody.. So, let me ask you this, did anyone run back in? While you were standing there outside?

"No.

No one ran back up the steps and ran back inside?

"No.

That's so--

"Not that I can remember.

Right. Right. and you stayed there for a little bit and then you went down the street and then went back inside?

"Right."

 

[Greg Doudna]

21 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Greg,

You're severely overstating (i.e., misstating) Lee Harvey Oswald's alleged "alibi". Oswald never once said he was outside on the front steps of the Book Depository Building at the time when President Kennedy was being shot.

When Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was "out with Bill Shelley in front", Oswald was clearly indicating to Fritz that he had only gone "out" of the building AFTER he had already had his encounter with Police Officer Marrion Baker in the second-floor lunchroom, which was an encounter that occurred, of course, after the assassination had already taken place.

(See James W. Bookhout's 11/22/63 FBI report—HERE—for verification of the chronology of Captain Fritz' sketchy "out with Bill Shelley in front" note.)

The key words in Bookhout's report, chronology-wise, are these words:

"He thereafter went outside..."

And the more-recent discovery of James Hosty's "went outside to watch P. Parade" notes—discussed in detail HERE—have also been mischaracterized by conspiracists (IMO), because the basic chronology of those Hosty notes is identical to Bookhout's report, with Oswald (per the Hosty notes) only going outside after he had gone to the second floor to get a Coke....and we know the "Coke" excursion coincided with Oswald's encounter with Marrion Baker, which was AFTER the assassination, not DURING the assassination.

FWIW....

With regard to the identity of "Prayer Man", I'll re-post the following comments made two years ago by someone whose presence on the Depository front steps on November 22nd is not disputed by even the most hardened of conspiracy theorists:

"To answer the question about Prayer Man: I have been looking at this all day, and I can tell you this: I 100% have no idea who that person is. I can also tell you 100% that is not Lee Harvey Oswald. First, Lee was not out there. I know that to be true. Second, for anyone who thinks Prayer Man is Lee, the individual has a much larger frame than Lee."  --  Buell Wesley Frazier; March 28, 2021

Also See:
http://DVP's JFK Archives/"Prayer Man" Discussion
 

David, although I for one like much of your work and am glad for your voice in these discussions, I think you have this one wrong, about when Oswald claimed he went outside.  

The Bookhout report shows confusion and conflation. In fact Oswald claimed he went to the second floor to get a coke with his lunch, which preceded the assassination. Then, after the assassination, he went again to the second floor, not for the purpose of getting a coke but to exit by way of the rear stairwell to the first floor and out the back. He was spotted by officer Baker as he was about to come out of the pneumatic door to the NW 2nd floor stairwell, and Baker followed him in and there was the encounter at gunpoint. Oswald did not have a coke in his hand at the moment of that encounter, but after Baker left, Oswald then did buy a coke (second coke that day), and also took off his light-maroon shirt mistakenly seen by Baker as a "light brown" jacket (explicable if Baker was one of the ca. 10% of white men with genetically-inherited red-brown color blindness), to walk by Mrs. Reid in white T-shirt with a coke, as he went back down the SE stairwell to the first floor again before making his exit out the rear. (Exit out the rear based on Buell Frazier's later testimony of such which I find credible; and no contrary evidence of any witness seeing him leave out the front.)

The point being there were two, not one, incidents of Oswald at that second-floor lunchroom and cokes. Bookhout's report conflates the two.

The way you have it, you cite and apparently believe Bookhout as if that is evidence that Oswald literally (and absurdly) claimed he went to the second floor after the assassination to get a coke for his lunch, then claimed he came down (after the assassination) and ate his lunch after the assassination, then left. 

Do you seriously believe Oswald, whose lunch break started at 12:00, would claim in interrogation that he ate his lunch after the assassination which occurred at 12:30? Do you seriously believe Oswald claimed that?

If you seriously believe that, why then do neither Fritz nor Hosty's notes or reports reflect any other than Oswald saying he ate his lunch before the assassination?

Isn't it obvious that Hosty's notes, reflected in the typed Hosty-Bookhout report of the same interrogation, has correctly what Oswald claimed? 

Hosty handwritten notes: "O stated ... at noon went to lunch. He went to 2nd floor to get coca cola to eat with lunch and returned to 1st floor to eat lunch. Then went outside to watch P. Parade."

Hosty/Bookhout FBI report: "Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building."

Clearly, Oswald said his lunch was before the assassination, not after the assassination. (Contrary to the Bookhout report's misunderstanding, which you are citing as if it must be believed because Bookhout wrote it that way.)

Oswald's (first) coke, obviously was for his lunch, meaning he went up and bought a coke for his lunch before the assassination. That does not contradict that he had the Baker encounter after the assassination, which although Oswald may have bought a second coke after the gunpoint encounter with Baker as something of an alibi was not his actual purpose for going to the second floor after the assassination. 

That Oswald bought a coke for his lunch is what Hosty's notes, and the Hosty/Bookhout report, says Oswald said. It is logical, and it is what Oswald said, as to the timing and association with his lunch, and his claim of eating lunch was before the assassination, not after.

"Then" he said, following his lunch (before the assassination) he either said he "went outside to watch P. Parade" (Hosty notes), or "[was] on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building" (Hosty/Bookhout written report).

Bookhout screwed up his reporting of what Oswald said and meant, whereas Hosty got it basically right, is what happened there.

And here is a possible reconstruction, building on my above re Roy Lewis, who thought he was the last to go through the front doors to stand on the front steps, before the presidential limousine passed by.

Suppose Oswald did go outside on those steps but after Roy Lewis, coming in quietly behind Roy Lewis who did not notice (facing toward Elm Street). Suppose Oswald entered those steps to become Prayer Man in the shadow at one end there moments after the shots had been fired. That would account for why Roy Lewis did not notice him, and also why few others on the steps would be expected to have noticed him. It would account for Oswald expressing to Hosty an intention to see the presidential parade, while at the same time it could account for Oswald telling reporters he had been "inside the building" at the time of the shots.  

[David Von Pein]

5 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Do you seriously believe Oswald, whose lunch break started at 12:00, would claim in interrogation that he ate his lunch after the assassination which occurred at 12:30? Do you seriously believe Oswald claimed that?

Yes, I do. And that's because this chronology....

1. Coke/Lunchroom Encounter with Officer Baker.

2. Then down to 1st floor to have lunch.

3. Then outside with Bill Shelley.

....is confirmed (or at least it is present and exists) in THREE different places within the reports or notes written by the various officials:

1. Captain Fritz' notes --- HERE.

2. James Bookhout's solo 11/22/63 FBI report --- HERE.

3. James Hosty's recently-discovered notes --- HERE.

In Hosty's notes, however, he doesn't say anything about "Shelley". He, instead, says Oswald went outside to watch the "P. Parade". But, IMO, Hosty is, in effect, conflating "Shelley" and "P. Parade". But in any event, Hosty, just like Fritz and Bookhout, has Oswald going outside only after the "Coke" and the "Lunch on 1st floor".

And Hosty, in his notes, doesn't mention the encounter Oswald had with Baker either. But there's no indication in the existing records and reports that Oswald ever said anything about going to the second floor TWO times to get a Coke on Nov. 22. So, IMO, Hosty's "went to 2nd floor to get Coca-Cola" is essentially the same thing as also referring to the encounter between LHO and Baker.

And as "absurd" as it might be to think that anyone would want to go and eat his lunch after having such an encounter with a police officer (at gunpoint) and after discovering that the President had just been shot right outside the front door of your workplace, we also have to realize that such a chronology was being provided by the person to whom all of the evidence in the assassination leads---Lee H. Oswald.

In other words, Oswald's absurd and crazy chronology was all just one big fat lie being told by the actual assassin of President Kennedy (except for the Lunchroom Encounter with Officer Baker, of course, which actually did occur and wasn't just one of Oswald's made-up tall tales).

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Greg Doudna]

27 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Yes, I do. And that's because this chronology....

1. Coke/Lunchroom Encounter with Officer Baker.

2. Down to 1st floor to have lunch.

3. Then outside with Bill Shelley.

....is confirmed (or at least it is present and exists) in THREE different places within the reports or notes written by the various officials:

1. Captain Fritz' notes --- HERE.

2. James Bookhout's solo 11/22/63 FBI report --- HERE.

3. James Hosty's recently-discovered notes --- HERE. (Although in Hosty's notes, he doesn't say anything about "Shelley". He, instead, says Oswald went outside to watch the "P. Parade". But, IMO, Hosty is, in effect, conflating "Shelley" and "P. Parade".)

And as "absurd" as it might be to think that anyone would want to go and eat his lunch after having such an encounter with a police officer (at gunpoint) and after discovering that the President had just been shot right outside the front door of your workplace, we also have to realize that such a chronology was being provided by the person to whom all of the evidence in the assassination leads---Lee H. Oswald.

In other words, Oswald's absurd and crazy chronology was all just one big fat lie being told by the actual assassin of President Kennedy.

David, Oswald did not claim to start eating lunch after the assassination. That is ridiculous and counterindicated by Fritz's and Hosty's interrogation reports. It is as if you latch on to that confused report of Bookhout like a fundamentalist citing inerrant scripture, no matter that all other reports and common sense tell you that Oswald told of his lunch occurring during his lunchtime.  

You then cite Hosty's notes in support when they say the very opposite of what you claim. Hosty's notes of what Oswald was saying read: "at noon went to lunch". 

How does "at noon went to lunch" support your notion that Oswald did not claim to eat lunch at noon but claimed to have gone to lunch after 12:30 after the assassination? That's like asserting "Y" and citing a footnote which says "not-Y". 

Here is Hosty again:

"at noon went to lunch. He went to 2nd floor to get coca cola to eat with lunch and returned to 1st floor to eat lunch."

Those are three uses of "lunch" associated with "at noon" as the time of that lunch".

Then you cite Fritz's handwritten handwritten notes which I agree are ambiguous, but you are choosing or preferring an insensible reading of ambiguous words instead of a sensible reading. But this need not be forever ambiguous. Fritz's typed reporting shows Fritz did not interpret his notes the way you are. Fritz understood a sensible meaning not an insensible meaning, of the words. Here are both for comparison:

Fritz handwritten notes:

"claims 2nd floor Coke when/ off came in/ to 1st floor had lunch/ out with Bill Shelley in front/ left wk opinion nothing be/ done that day etc."

Fritz typed report:

"I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President was shot, and he said that he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor.

"Mr. Truly had told me that one of the police officers had stopped this man immediately after the shooting somewhere near the back stairway, so I asked Oswald where he was when the police officer stopped him. He said he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in."

(Note according to this report Oswald answered truthfully where the Baker incident occurred without being told. Note Oswald did not claim this coca cola was bought to have with his lunch.)

"I asked him why he left the building, and he said there was so much excitement he didn't think there would be any more work done that day...

"I asked him if he had told Buell Wesley Frazier why he had gone home a different night ... He denied... He said... When asked ... he said ... In talking with him further about his location at the time the President was killed, he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him..."

Note Oswald claimed--according to Fritz's typed report of what Oswald claimed--that he ate lunch with African-American employees, all of whom went to lunch at 12:00 before the assassination. Are you claiming Oswald claimed they all ate lunch together after the assassination?

All I can say is, you are stuck on only a single coke after the assassination followed by a lunch after that, and that premise (of only a single coke) leads you to believe that Oswald gave a totally bizarre time claim.

But all the other written reports other than Bookhout's do not support the outlandish meaning as what Oswald was saying or meaning, and common sense does not either. The sensible reading is there were two coke purchases in Oswald's story that day: one for his lunch during his normal lunch time (as Oswald routinely did on other days, according to second-floor women who would make change for him, etc., and as Oswald said in interrogation), and a second after the assassination when accosted by officer Baker (as Oswald also said when asked).   

On when Oswald was claiming he went out front "with Shelley"/"to see P. Parade", in the Fritz and Hosty handwritten notes, both of those appear only in handwritten notes, not in the typed reports. But the two expressions appear to be alternative language for the same thing, and "to see P. Parade" will not work for after the second-floor encounter with Baker. That cannot be disputed. The only way to explain that in keeping with your reconstruction is Pat Speer's idea that it was some kind of mistake on Hosty's part in that handwritten note (the argument for that being that Hosty never wrote that up in his typed reports or told of it later in testimony or in his book).  

But if Oswald did say he went out "to see P. Parade" (as Hosty's handwriting within ca. 24 hours of the fact suggests Oswald might have), and that followed his coke with his lunch ... well, q.e.d. there is when Oswald was situating his lunch and a coke with that lunch, before that, before the presidential parade, during the normal time for lunch.

Incidentally, in the typed reports of Fritz and FBI Hosty and Bookhout is anything even said about Oswald going out front of the building--at all? I don't think so. Even though that is in both Fritz's and Hosty's handwritten notes that no one was ever supposed to see.  

The sole mention in a typed report is Secret Service agent Kelley who says Oswald told him on Nov 24 he was out in front and a Secret Service agent asked him to direct him to a phone inside. According to Kelley's report, Oswald saw the man go to the phone inside. None of the others present in that final interrogation of Oswald's life reported or evidently heard that, but Oswald appears to have spoken semi-privately and directly to Kelley that morning, minutes before he was killed by Ruby. 

Two comments on that: first, Oswald was not making that up. Pierce Allman, a reporter, was that man Oswald directed to the phone, about 3 minutes after the assassination by Allman's estimate, which is just about exactly the time when Oswald would have come down the SE stairway to inside the front of the TSBD after the Baker encounter. (On the 3 minute estimate of Allman, https://jfkfacts.org/one-mans-encounter-with-oswald/. )

And second, I suspect Kelley had that slightly wrong that Oswald said he was actually outside the building, as opposed to inside near the front of the building, and here is why: it is because Oswald also said (according to Kelley) that he not only had directed the man to a phone, but actually saw the man go to the phone and use it. That only works if Oswald is inside the building. It does not work for an Oswald outside the building. And Pierce Allman said his encounter with Oswald occurred inside the doors as Allman rushed in, with nothing said of Oswald being outside the building.

There is no evidence Oswald was outside the front of the building after his encounter with Baker on the second floor. There is no evidence Oswald left the TSBD by the front entrance. I do not believe the Warren Report even claims Oswald left by the front, only that he left somehow. 

No photograph captures Oswald outside the building after Baker. No witness testified to seeing Oswald out front of the building after Baker.

I think the notion of Oswald outside the building after his Baker encounter at all, and leaving from the front, is mythical.

In contrast to no photo or witness having Oswald out front of the building after the Baker encounter or leaving from the front, Buell Frazier's account of witnessing Oswald walking away around from the rear I believe is credible and the best information on how Oswald left the TSBD that day. 

[François Carlier]

On 10/4/2023 at 11:01 AM, David Von Pein said:

Even though I don't believe for one second that "Prayer Man" is Lee Harvey Oswald, I still would very much like to see the original versions of the Darnell and Wiegman films, and I'd very much like to have those films enhanced and restored to the best possible quality.

I second that !

[Paul Jolliffe]

14 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Roy E. Lewis, "last one out front", standing at the top of the front entrance

I mentioned that I went through the individual statements and information of every woman TSBD employee and found every one was excluded as being Prayer Man. But in turning to the men TSBD employees, I came to focus attention on one male TSBD employee, Roy Lewis. He was 18 years old at the time, TSBD's youngest male employee. He said he was on the top level of the steps, and he has not otherwise been satisfactorily identified in any photo. He said he was the last TSBD employee out the front doors to watch the parade. He was the same height as Oswald, a bit huskier, said he spoke to no one on the steps, said he did not see Oswald there, and from photos of him from the next hour or so his shirt and sweater could have a similar drooping neckline look as Prayer Man. 

I put quite a bit of study into whether Roy Lewis could possibly be Prayer Man. My conclusion is Prayer Man was probably not Roy Lewis, for reasons explained below. The "probably" rather than certainty reflects that on present information none of the four reasons seem individually quite airtight. (Digital prints from the original of Darnell could resolve that.) 

A first reason is Roy Lewis's skin color as African American. Prayer Man's arms and head look light, like Prayer Man was white, and that is what is generally understood. But is a light skin color of Prayer Man in fact an exclusively correct interpretation of the photos (which would exclude Roy Lewis)? Or could that be optical illusion, or an artifact of processing and filtering necessary to bring out the images in poor photos? I am not sufficiently expert to know; expert opinion on this point welcome and of interest. 

A second reason is the hair of Roy Lewis, a close-cut Afro, does not show the distinctive receding at the temples (early stage male pattern baldness) that Prayer Man seems to have (in agreement with Oswald). But again, given the poor quality of the photos, is that decisive? But it looks that way. 

Third, because of where on that top level Roy Lewis said he was in his statements and interviews: in the middle (never in a corner or at one end). He associated himself as standing with office women of the second floor also on the steps, and they were clustered predominantly toward the east end, or center such as Sarah Stanton, not west in the corner where Prayer Man was. In later years Roy Lewis said he could not remember specific persons next to him other than women from the second floor though at one point he said he thought he remembered Frazier on one side of him. 

And fourth, following the shots, Lewis says he followed "the women" in running toward the Grassy Knoll. From Lewis's statements and description I believe it likely he was not on the steps at all by the time of the Darnell photo, because by that point large numbers of people are running toward the Grassy Knoll as seen in the Crouch film, Lewis maybe among them in that Crouch film though I am not aware Lewis has yet been identified in the Crouch film.

Lewis is not visible in either Altgens6 or Wiegman even though he was on that top level somewhere along with Frazier and Sarah Stanton (Large-Framed Figure to the left of Frazier). Altgens6 is missing Frazier and Large-Framed Figure (Sarah Stanton) in the black in the back, and Lewis would be equally invisible in that same black in the back too. In Wiegman, Lewis either would be slightly too far east to be in line of sight of Wiegman's camera, or alternatively perhaps hidden standing behind and mostly blocked to the camera by Large-Framed Figure (Sarah Stanton). Lewis at about the same height as Oswald (according to Lewis) at 5'9" would be able to see over Large-Framed Figure/Sarah Stanton's height of 5'5 or 5'6" even if he were directly behind her.

Lewis in his FBI statement of CE 1381:

"On November 22, 1963 at approximately 12:25 PM I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository Building to watch President John F. Kennedy come by the building in a motorcade."

Lewis in Sneed, No More Silence (1998):

"I was one of the last ones out of the building before the motorcade arrived ... when I came out, I was standing with some ladies from up in the offices right in the middle of the steps in front of the building that led to the sidewalk beyond the glass door."

From a video interview of Lewis in 2016, at age 70, by Larry Rivera (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZOBn8wcIJU ). At 33:16f:

"I was standing on top of the steps where you go in, I was on the outside."

On the outside?

"Yeah I was on the outside." 

About in between first or second step?

"No, I was on the first step up there, the first step.

OK the first step--

"--before you get ready to step off--"

That's right--

"Yeah I was on the first step."

At 36:25 Lewis incorrectly identifies himself in a photo as Carl Edward Jones visible in Weigman against the west wall. (That could be cited as an argument that Lewis was compatible with having been at the west like Prayer Man?) 

And Bart Kamp's new book, Prayer Man: More than a Fuzzy Picture, publishes transcriptions of interviews of Ed Ledoux of Roy Lewis in 2018 never before publicly available (p. 49f). Here are some excerpts from that:

"I don't remember who was standing in front of me but I think Wes Frazier was standing on the side of me and I believe Billy Lovelace ... What was his name Lovelace?

Yeah, Billy Lovelady

"Yeah, Lovelady. I think he was standing on one side of me and Wes was on one side. One of them was standing beside or behind me. I can't remember which one."

(. . .)

So after the last one [shot], what happened? Did anybody say anything? Did you hear people talk? Did somebody say that sounds like shots?

"No, let me tell you what happened. We all ran towards the grassy knoll.

You and all the people on the steps?

"That's right. First of all, the women in front, from upstairs came up and started running that way too.

(. . .)

"[L]ike I said, I was one of the last ones out of the building ... I think I mean I knew I was the last one out but ...

You were outside ... now think about it, you were outside. Did you hear the shots? Did you step out when you heard something?

"Yeah, I stepped out, yeah right as I heard the first shot. I stepped out of the building. I was standing on the top step.

(. . .) 

"I stepped out the front door and I was standing out on the front steps up there.

Sure, I remember you said you were the last one out.

"Right. I was.

Do you remember who was in front of you?

"...No, because I was, eh... I don't remember. Because I wasn't paying much attention.

(. . .)

Do you remember when you got outside, how long it was before the limo came?

"No...oh. Only a minute or two or seconds, it wasn't long.

(. . .)

Do you remember who was out on the steps? Do you remember seeing Shelley, Buell Frazier or any of the ladies out there?

Well, some of the ladies; I don't remember their names.

(. . .)

When you were out on the steps you did not speak with anybody?

"No.

(. . .)

What did you exactly see when the limo went past. Did you get a view of the President? Were you able to see him?

"Yeah, I got a view of his back and the side of his head. And then after the shots I remember seeing his head snap and I thought Jackie was trying to get out of the limo, but they were saying that she was trying to get part of his head that had come off, I don't know.

Right, that's what they said that she was trying to get a piece or chunk of his head of[f] the trunk.

"All I saw was him, the last thing I saw do was brush his hair to the side. That's when the shots rang.

(. . .)

How long was it before you left the steps and ran down that way?

"A few seconds.

(. . .)

When was the first time you saw Roy Truly, was that when you came back to the buildlng?

"Right.

(. . .)'

Very interesting as you were the last one out that door.

"Right.

And standing at the back. Where, you know, you can see everything.

"Right.

And you knew who came in... so did anybody.. So, let me ask you this, did anyone run back in? While you were standing there outside?

"No.

No one ran back up the steps and ran back inside?

"No.

That's so--

"Not that I can remember.

Right. Right. and you stayed there for a little bit and then you went down the street and then went back inside?

"Right."

 

Greg,

If the following quote from Roy Lewis to Larry Sneed is accurate (""I was one of the last ones (ONES - plural!)  out of the building before the motorcade arrived"), then Lewis knew he was NOT the last one out of the building!

How would Lewis have known that?

Because he saw someone else come out of the building after him, someone nameless. A TSBD employee not accounted for in any chronology.

 

Could Larry Sneed have misquoted Lewis? 

Maybe, but consider this quote Lewis gave to Bart Kamp: ""[L]ike I said, I was one of the last ones out of the building ... I think I mean I knew I was the last one out but ..."

"I think I mean I knew I was the last one out but . . "

What the hell does that mean, Roy?

Either you were the last one out or you weren't!

"But ..." what Roy? You "think" you mean you "knew" you were the last one, but . . .  but what, Roy?

Good golly, Roy, just what could have caused you to bite off that sentence in mid-thought? It couldn't have been the realization that if you completed the obvious thought - that you knew you were NOT the last one out, just as you blurted out previously, and that you have been warned/intimidated/coerced into keeping your mouth shut - people might start asking questions about who came out after you, could it?

 

Greg, these two quotes from Lewis, given to two different interviewers years apart, strongly suggest that Lewis knew damn well he was NOT the last person to exit the TSBD just before the assassination. Further, the second quote, given to Kamp, all but confirms that Lewis tried to backtrack to obscure his knowledge of the late-exiting TSBD nameless employee.

The identity of that late-exiting TSBD employee was apparently still sensitive to Roy E. Lewis a full five decades after the assassination.

There is only one plausible reason for that:

Roy E. Lewis knows exactly who walked out of the glass doors and stood outside atop the steps for a few moments during the assassination. 

Is Roy E. Lewis still alive?

 

[Michael Crane]

Oswald did not have to be outside on the steps.

He could have been somewhere outside near the steps.

He could have rushed into the building after the shots.

Oswald could have been anywhere outside.

[David Von Pein]

12 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

It is as if you latch on to that confused report of Bookhout like a fundamentalist citing inerrant scripture, no matter that all other reports and common sense tell you that Oswald told of his lunch occurring during his lunchtime.  

The key point isn't really the specific "lunch" aspect of any of Oswald's lies. (And maybe Oswald himself was having a hard time keeping his "lunch" lies straight after he was arrested.)

But the most important point, IMO, is the chronology of the "Coke/Lunchroom Encounter" and "Out front with Shelley" aspects of Oswald's attempted alibi. And whether you choose to believe Bookhout, Fritz, and Hosty or not, the fact remains that those three men (Bookhout, Fritz, & Hosty) did write things down in their notes and/or reports that definitely give the impression that OSWALD HIMSELF said he followed this chronology at around 12:30 on Nov. 22:

1. Coke/Lunchroom Encounter with Officer Baker.

2. Then down to 1st floor to have lunch.

3. Then outside with Bill Shelley.

-----------------

Plus: Can anyone who believes that Oswald is the "Prayer Man" figure really and truly also believe that Oswald then decided he wanted to immediately go back into the TSBD Building and dash up to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a Coke within seconds of JFK being shot out on Elm Street in front of the building?

That scenario of Oswald being Prayer Man and then immediately having a burning desire to go get a Coca-Cola on the second floor is a very loony scenario, if you ask me. But for the conspiracy theorists who wholly endorse the "Oswald Is Prayer Man" theory, then they really have no choice but to believe such an absurd scenario. Because we know for a fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in that 2nd-floor lunchroom with Officer Baker just a few minutes after the assassination took place.*

* Notwithstanding the many CTers who now belong to the INHAA club.

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Michael Crane]

Maybe Oswald rushed in to use the phone.

Hell,I don't know.