VIDEO: Firing the Mannlicher-Carcano Rifle

[Joe Bauer]

54 minutes ago, Evan Marshall said:

Shooting one rifle doesn't prove as much as we'd like. I own several Russian Mosin Nagants and no two of them eject brass in the same location. And two M-1 Garands are no better nor my Ar-15's.

So, what is your take on the shot sequence, Harold Norman's testimony, and the whole shooting event EM?

[Evan Marshall]

The problem with ear and eyewitnesses is they all too often are unfamiliar with the sound of gunfire. Even most cops are poor witnesses. I simply find that they often under count because they don't recognize the first sound as gunfire.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Harold Norman (11-26-63 FBI report, CD5 p26) (On seeing Oswald earlier in the day) “He further stated he cannot recall whether he saw Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository during Friday, November 22, 1963." (On the shooting) "He stated that about the time the car in which the president was riding turned on to Elm Street, he heard a shot. He said he thought the shot had been fired from the floor directly above him. He further stated at that time he stuck his head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above him. He stated two additional shots were fired after he had pulled his head back in from the window.”

(12-4-63 affidavit to the Secret Service, 17H208) (On seeing Oswald earlier that day) "On November 22, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00AM when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time." (On the shooting) “Just after the President passed by I heard a shot and several seconds later, I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street run toward the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman.”

(12-7-63 Secret Service Report based on interviews conducted between 12-2 and 12-5, CD87 p783) "Just after the President passed their position, Norman heard a shot fired and several seconds later, he heard two more shots spaced closely together. Norman claims that he knew immediately that the shots had come from directly above his position, since he heard the bolt action of the rifle and he also heard the expended shells fall to the floor. Norman also claims that some dust fell from the ceiling of the fifth floor which convinced him that there was some type of activity taking place directly above him."

(3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H666) “I was with James Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams watching the motorcade bearing President John F. Kennedy pass the Texas School Book Depository Building when I heard three shots fired from, I believe, the floor directly above me.”

(3-24-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 3H186-198) (On seeing Oswald earlier that day) (I saw him) "around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that...Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street...(On) The first (floor)...I was looking out the window. He happened to come by to fill orders." (When asked if he said anything to Oswald and if Oswald had said anything to him) "No, he didn't...No" (On the shooting) “About the time that he got past the window where I was, well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. Maybe he was looking at the public…I can’t remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard a shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said “I believe someone is shooting at the President,” and I think I made a statement “it is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us. Well, I couldn’t see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle.” (When asked if he saw any dirt or dust falling) "I didn't see any falling but I saw some in Bonnie Ray Williams hair...I believe Jarman told him that it was in his hair first. Then I, you know, told him it was and I believe Jarman told him not to brush it out his hair but I think he did anyway." (When asked what happened after that) "Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway."

(Interview with CBS aired 9-27-64) “Then the motorcade got to Elm and it turned and it started towards the triple underpass. The President, he was waving at people as he went by and occasionally he would brush his hair back." (Later in the same broadcast) “When I heard the second shot that’s when I saw the people start falling on the ground." (Later in the same broadcast) "But before the third shot was fired I told the guys that, you know, I believed the shot came from the building above us. And eventually, I guess, they agreed with me, because one of the guys said “I believe you’re right.” And I said “I know I’m right” because I could hear something sound as though the shells were hitting the floor and I could hear the ejection of the rifle, clicks like that, you know.” (Later in the same broadcast) “Well, I was looking out the window and the first shot was fired. Well, y'know, I didn't think much of it, because it, shook the building a little bit. Really, it was just that powerful. Then after the second shot was fired, well, I saw the people. They were all falling on the ground. And I told one of the fellows. I say, “That shot came from this building.” And then by that time I heard the third shot. And one of the guys told me, he said, “I believe you’re right.” And I say “I know it did." And then I could, you know, also hear the hulls, empty hulls, the cartridges, hitting the floor, and I could hear the ejection of the rifle, whatever it was. And the first thing we thought is we better get down from here because I know I didn’t want to be involved in anything like that because I didn't have anything like that on my mind…”

(Late 1966 interview with Lawrence Schiller recounted in The Scavengers and the Critics of the Warren Report, published 1967) "When the President came around, he was waving, seemed to be happy. About that time I heard a shot, and one of the guys said "Somebody's shooting at the President." And I said : "Well, he sure is, because I know that's a shot." And another shot was fired. Then another shot. I saw the President slump over and the Secret Service men and the policemen, they seemed to not recognize where the shots came from. There was a passenger train over by the railroad track and everybody was running that way. That's where they thought the shots came from at first. But I knew it was someone, the shots came from above us. I didn't know who it was or where but I know they were above us because I could even hear the cartridges hitting the floor and I knew the shots came from above...They were right over me. I was sitting almost directly under the window that the shots came from and I could hear them very plainly...One of the guys, some of the debris had dropped one one of the fellows' head, in his hair, and he mentioned it to the other fellow and we looked and there it was, in his hair."

(Interview with CBS broadcast 6-25-67, additional portions broadcast in 1992) (On seeing Oswald earlier that day) "On that particular morning there were three or four of us standing by the window, and Oswald came over and said, "what's everybody looking at, what's everybody excited about?" And so I - we told him we was waiting on the President. So he just snudged up and walked away." (On the shooting) "And then I think about that time, Jarman says "Somebody's shooting at the President." And I told Jarman, I said "I know it is" because I could hear it being above me and I could hear the shots and everything. And I could even now hear the empty cartridge hit the floor I mean after the shots had been fired. And so, after the shots were fired, well all the officers and everyone else seemed to think it came from down the track down by the underpass cause that's where everyone ran over thatta way. But just like I've said, I've been hunting enough to know the sound of a rifle from a backfire or a firecracker, especially this close to me." (When asked how many shots he heard) “Three. I’d say just about like this BOOM…click click…BOOM…click clickBOOM. Something similar to that.”

(10-20-77 HSCA interview) (On seeing Oswald earlier in the day) "Well a few more friends of mine, we were over by the window, main entrance coming into the building, and we were looking out and he came over and made the statement to us and asked what was everybody excited about because the president was coming to town." (On Oswald's behavior after making out that the president's visit was nothing to get excited about) "he left, and I never did pay him much, no attention." (When asked a bit later if he saw Oswald come in to work) "No...There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the president coming to town. Then when he turn around to leave, you know how a kid would do when he's playing cowboys and Indians?...He did like this: 'pow.'" (When asked if he meant that Oswald behaved as if he were a "cowboy firing two guns') "Yes." (On the shooting) "just as the motorcade came around...3 shots was fired...Boom, clack-clack, boom, clack-clack, boom. One at a time. I see the President fall back and do high hand." (When asked if that was in response to the first shot) "No, I didn't think it was the first shot. I can't recall. (When asked if he saw the president react to the first shot) "No, I didn't because I really didn't know who was shooting--who somebody was shooting at. I mean, I heard the shots, but not thinking that, you know, that that was what was happening--that the president had been hit." (When asked from where he thought the shots were being fired) "From right up above me, up on the fifth floor. And I knew the shots had to be on the 6th floor, you know, on top of the roof." (When asked if heard any cartridges fall) "I heard three." (When asked if Jarman had pointed out any debris in his hair) "Yes...I didn't feel it. It was just something that must have been lightly--debris. It wasn't nothing, you know, that I really could feel...I feel like it was coming from either somebody moving around or something that had to cause the debris to fall down in my hair like that." (When asked again from where he thought the shots were being fired) "Well, I myself, I knew all the time that they came from above, why you could just hear it, I mean, you know, you know somebody's up there..." (On the comments of Jarman and Williams, after they ran to the west side) "Well, at one time somebody made a statement that someone was shooting at the president or they thought someone was shooting at the president. And I think I made the statement 'Yes, I know somebody is shooting at him.'" (When asked if he saw the president hit) "Well, I feel like that he had been hit. I mean I feel like this because I only--he went back in some type of way, he did his hand or something, I don't know if he was falling or reaching for it or what, but I felt like that he had been hit there."

(11-09-83 AP article found in the Indiana Gazette) "'I didn't see the gun barrel but I did see the debris that fell in one of my friend's hair. I could hear a gun going off above us, and the debris fell each time there was a shot," said Norman. The debris was dust and tiny pieces of concrete broken loose by the concussion of the rifle, he said. "I sure do see that scene — sometimes pretty regularly. Sometimes I'll be driving down the street and thinking about it," he said. "I can close my eyes and see President Kennedy again. One minute he's smiling and waving and then he's slumped back and wounded.'' Norman said he never believed a conspiracy was involved in the assassination, but he also never fully believed his coworker —Oswald—was the trigger man. 'I won't say he did it,' Norman said. 'I just won't.'"

(7-23-86 testimony in a televised mock trial, On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald) "Well, I heard a shot when the motorcade came by. The first shot, it made the President slump. Then I heard two more shots." (When asked if he heard a total of three shots) "Yes, sir." (When asked how he could tell the shots came from above) "Yes, sir...Because I could hear the empty hulls--that's what I call them--hit the floor and I could hear the bolt action of the rifle being pushed back and forward." (When asked how many hulls he heard hit the floor) "Three." (When asked by the defense to describe the rhythm of the sounds) "As I recall, the rhythm of the sounds of the shots was Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click." (When asked by the defense if he thought there was an armed man directly above him) "I can't say that I thought that." (When asked if he thought there was somebody up there) "I thought there was somebody up there, sir."

(1-19-92 interview with Gerald Posner, reported in Case Closed, 1993) "When the first shot came, I heard boom, then click-click, boom, click-click, boom. I could hear the sound of the click. I could hear the sound of the shells hitting the floor. I could hear everything. Three shots. No doubt in my mind."

(6-13-93 Interview with PBS Frontline) (On seeing Oswald earlier in the day) "We were looking out towards Elm Street, so he walked up and asked us, said, "What is everybody looking for? What's everybody waiting on?" So we told him we was waiting on the President to come by. He put his hands in his pocket and laughed and walked away, so I don't know where he went, or if he went upstairs or downstairs or where." (On the sound of the shots) “We was sitting on the fifth floor, directly under the sixth floor windows. The shots came from above and there was a gun and the shots were sounding, "Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click." So there was three shots fired right up over us when we were sitting on the fifth floor.” (Intriguingly, the transcription of the first part of this Frontline interview, when published in Gus Russo's 1998 book Live by the Sword, had a few extra lines.) In Russo's transcription, between Norman's saying Oswald "laughed and walked away" and his saying "I don't know where he went" he says "I thought maybe he's just being happy that morning or something. He was glad the President was coming through. He acted as though he didn't know, but I kind of think he did know." (Russo's transcription of the second part of the interview, in which Norman describes the shots, was also considerably different than the interview shown on TV, and far more expansive.) "At the time of the shooting, James Jarman and myself were on the fifth floor. Somehow he (Bonnie Ray Williams) lost us. But he did come down to find us just before the motorcade came through. So he joined us and we pulled up some cartons, standing in the window waiting on the motorcade. And as the motorcade came by, we started looking and we had a good view. And all of a sudden, we hear something. 'Boom, ack, ack, boom, ack, ack, boom.' I told Jarman, 'I believe somebody's shooting at the President.' And he said, 'Yeah, that certainly sounds like it.' And then by this time we looked over and there was some debris or dirt or something fell on top of Jarman's head. And that was three of the shells I heard on the floor. And when the police officer asked about it, we told them about it and they went up there and that is what they found up there on the sixth floor. Three empty cartridge shells up there."

(Article by Bill Hendricks in the San Antonio Express News, as found in the 11-20-93 Moscow-Pullman Daily News) "Norman was a 25-year old employee at the Texas School Book Depository when Kennedy was shot to death Nov 22 1963. One of his co-workers was Lee Harvey Oswald, whom police later arrested as a suspect in the killing. Now, 30 years later, Norman is unemployed, although he sells copies of JFK Today, a tabloid-sized newspaper for $3 a copy to tourists at Dealey Plaza...'I knew him,' Norman said of Oswald--but not well. The two never talked, except to exchange a brief greeting. Norman recalled seeing Oswald shortly before the president's motorcade reached Dealey Plaza. That was on the fifth floor of the depository, Norman noted, adding that he and another worker, James Jarman, were leaning out of a window with a view of Dealey Plaza. 'He walked over to us and asked what we were doing,' Norman said of Oswald. 'We said we were waiting for the president's motorcade. He laughed and walked away.' A few minutes later, Norman said, he heard three shots fired from the sixth floor window directly above the one he was using to view the parade."

Edited April 14, 2012 by Pat Speer

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Norman says …… Boom-click-click……. Boom-click-click…… Boom-click-click.

Norman says …… Boom-click-click……. Boom-click-click…… Boom.

Norman contradicts hizself – he said he heard 2 empty shells – he said he heard 3 empty shells.

I don’t know whether Norman's above click-click is (1) the bolt being pushed back and then forward, or whether the click-click is (2) the bolt being pushed back & forward & then the sound of the empty shell hitting the floor.

 

Anyhow, i had a look at a Carcano on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPPElqVNPbY

 

The bolt is forward & down. The Carcano is empty – no bullet – no clip.

 

Loading a clip (5 bullets).

click (bolt lift) – clack (bolt back) --  now ready to load clip down into Carcano.

clip-clip-clip-clip -- there were a few soft clips & 1 loud clip in the middle when loading the clip.

 

Loading the first bullet. The bolt is initially up & back.

clock (bolt forward) – clock (bolt down) – now ready to shoot.

 

Shooting & reloading.

Bang (the shot) …… click (bolt lift) – clack (bolt back)(eject) – clockk (bolt forward)(& then bolt down)(combined) – klunk (hull hitting ground).

Clockk – this was a combined bolt forward & bolt down – making one combined sound.

Klunk – this was more of a thud here when hitting ground, or it was a klink if hitting another shell on the ground -- or of course it would be a klunk if hitting a wooden floor (or a klunketyklunketyklunk).

The clockk & the klunk were at the same time, or the klunk was sometimes slightly after (difficult to tell).

 

So, what sounds could Oswald have made?

[ a ] In a simple case he is ready to pull the trigger, & fires 2 shots, in which case Norman might hear….

Bang …… click-clack-clockk-klunketyklunketyklunk.………. (Oswald then takes aim).

Bang …… click-clack-clockk- klunketyklunketyklunk.

Oswald then duznt pull the trigger to fire his last bullet.

 

[ b ] If for some reason Oswald was not ready to pull the trigger then Norman might have heard….

click-clack-clockk-klunketyklunketyklunk (very old empty shell ejected)(& bullet loaded) ……… (Oswald then takes aim).

Bang …… click-clack-clockk- klunketyklunketyklunk ………. (Oswald then takes aim).

Bang …… click-clack-clockk- klunketyklunketyklunk.

Oswald then duznt pull the trigger to fire his last bullet.

 

In [ a ] Norman hears 2 shells hit the floor.  In [ b ] Norman hears 3 shells hit the floor.

In both [ a ]&[ b ] Norman would have heard the Baaannggg of Hickey's auto burst say 6 seconds after Oswald's 2 Bangs.

[Gerry Down]

On 8/28/2023 at 10:00 PM, Mark Ulrik said:

Was this picture taken inside the TSBD? If so, this is possible evidence the rifle was not bumped hard when Oswald put it down. Otherwise the clip might have fallen out. Such a proposed bump is used to explain why the scope was out of alignment when the rifle was found. But if the clip was hanging out like in the picture, this would appear to indicate the rifle was at least not bumped hard enough to cause the clip to fall out. 

[Evan Marshall]

When I was a rookie Detroit cop, we had a run and found a body that was obviously a murder victim. We called for a supervisor and our Lieutenant showed up. He took one look and said, "Yeah, he's dead" and left. Perhaps we ought to wonder why Oswald who was trained on the M-1 Garand would bother with such a piece of junk when he could have bought a rifle without a paper trail or even stole one. Common sense should never be ignored or dismissed!