VIDEO: Firing the Mannlicher-Carcano Rifle

[Gil Jesus]

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Even if Norman really did and was able to hear the bolt action of a rifle and shells hitting the floor from his position, which is debatable, this is misleading. Norman clearly states in his Dec. 4th Secret Service affidavit that he did not hear three evenly spaced shots. He heard one shot then “several seconds later” heard “two more shots”, which makes him a bang…bang bang witness like the majority of ear witnesses in DP. Norman also gave the same timing sequence in an earlier statement to the FBI. 

Here's that SS affidavit:

[Gil Jesus]

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Even if Norman really did and was able to hear the bolt action of a rifle and shells hitting the floor from his position, which is debatable, this is misleading. Norman clearly states in his Dec. 4th Secret Service affidavit that he did not hear three evenly spaced shots. He heard one shot then “several seconds later” heard “two more shots”, which makes him a bang…bang bang witness like the majority of ear witnesses in DP. Norman also gave the same timing sequence in an earlier statement to the FBI. 

already posted

Edited August 29, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Adam Johnson]

How to hold a spent shell casing without destroying possible prints:  pretty sure Fritz knew how to do this folks...🤪😜🤪🤠

[Gerry Down]

Its very rare to get fingerprints off shells anyway. Fritz knew that. At that moment in time, Fritz was probably more interested in analyzing the shells to see what kind of weapon they were dealing with and also to see if the shells were the same or possibly different which would indicate more than one shooter. 

[Bill Brown]

7 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Even if Norman really did and was able to hear the bolt action of a rifle and shells hitting the floor from his position, which is debatable, this is misleading. Norman clearly states in his Dec. 4th Secret Service affidavit that he did not hear three evenly spaced shots. He heard one shot then “several seconds later” heard “two more shots”, which makes him a bang…bang bang witness like the majority of ear witnesses in DP. Norman also gave the same timing sequence in an earlier statement to the FBI. 

 

Completely unrelated to my point that Norman heard the action of the bolt AFTER hearing the third shot.

 

[Gil Jesus]

On 8/28/2023 at 5:01 PM, Bill Brown said:

Harold Norman heard:

 

Boom.  Click click.

Boom.  Click click.

Boom.  Click click.

Citation ?

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

On 8/29/2023 at 7:01 AM, Bill Brown said:

Harold Norman heard:

 

Boom.  Click click.

Boom.  Click click.

Boom.  Click click.

I analysed the booms & clicks on the other forum.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2723.msg143751.html#msg143751

[Tom Gram]

6 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Completely unrelated to my point that Norman heard the action of the bolt AFTER hearing the third shot.

 

Still Bill, for someone who immediately jumps on the slightest inaccuracies in others’ comments, especially comments about witness statements, I’d expect you to take better care to not misrepresent what Norman actually said. 

Even your supposed “point” is misleading. Where in Norman’s original statements did he say anything about hearing the bolt cycle after the third shot? Hell Norman didn’t even say that in his WC testimony: 

I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us." Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle it sounded as though it was to me.

Norman is clearly talking about what he heard in general, and why he thought the shots came from above, just like in his affidavit. He never once specifies that he heard the bolt cycle ”AFTER” the third shot. He never even says how many times he heard the noise that he thought “sounded like” a bolt ejecting. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Gerry Down]

Norman seems to be inconsistent as to whether there was a click-click after the last shot. In the London trial he puts one after the third shot but not in the below video:

 

But my guess would be that Oswald did cycle the last shot into the chamber automatically after the third shot but then never fired it as he saw there was no need as the presidents head had just exploded on the third shot. Also I don't believe there is any testimony of Fritz working the bolt before he ejected the last round, but not certain on that point. It would seem unusual to have Fritz working a round into the chamber on the sixth floor, but not absolutely conclusive.

[Gil Jesus]

15 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

How to hold a spent shell casing without destroying possible prints:  pretty sure Fritz knew how to do this folks...🤪😜🤪🤠

You're speculating.

Tom Alyea said Fritz picked them up and held them in his hand.

"Fritz then walked to the casings, picked them up and held them in his hand over the top of the boxes for me to get a close-up shot of the evidence. I filmed about eight seconds of a close-up shot of the shell casings in Captain Fritz's hand."

 

Doesn't sound like your illustration to me.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Pete Mellor]

22 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

which makes him a bang…bang bang witness like the majority of ear witnesses in DP.

Somewhat off topic to your thread Gil, but I've always wondered how that sequence fits in with JFK's & J.C.'s known wounds & what is seen in Zapruder's film. 🤨

[Joe Bauer]

39 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

Somewhat off topic to your thread Gil, but I've always wondered how that sequence fits in with JFK's & J.C.'s known wounds & what is seen in Zapruder's film. 🤨

Having viewed the Z-Film more times than healthy over decades, I can say with certainty that Harold Norman's stated rifle shot/cartridge ejection and reloading timing sequence of an evenly spaced apart....

"Boom-click, click"

"Boom-click, click"

"Boom-click, click"

Does not fit the actual time spacing between the JFK back shot and the JFK head shot.

Look at the Z-film in real time.

Slap your hand down on a table top or clap your hands together the second JFK is hit in the back. Do so again when you see JFK hit in the head.

And/or repeat out loud Harold Norman's "Boom-click,click" "Boom-click,click" words with the "same exact timing" sequence that he gave in his Gerry Spence/Vincent Bugliosi "Trial Of Lee Harvey Oswald" mock trial appearance below:

7:16

NOW PLAYING

 

 

ON TRIAL LEE HARVEY OSWALD PART 5 WITNESS HAROLD NORMAN

+6 More

0:30

NOW PLAYING

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Gil Jesus]

18 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Having viewed the Z-Film more times than healthy over decades, I can say with certainty that Harold Norman's stated rifle shot/cartridge ejection and reloading timing sequence of an evenly spaced apart....

"Boom-click, click"

"Boom-click, click"

"Boom-click, click"

Does not fit the actual time spacing between the JFK back shot and the JFK head shot.

Look at the Z-film in real time.

Slap your hand down on a table top or clap your hands together the second JFK is hit in the back. Do so again when you see JFK hit in the head.

And/or repeat out loud Harold Norman's "Boom-click,click" "Boom-click,click" words with the "same exact timing" sequence that he gave in his Gerry Spence/Vincent Bugliosi "Trial Of Lee Harvey Oswald" mock trial appearance below:

7:16

NOW PLAYING

 

 

ON TRIAL LEE HARVEY OSWALD PART 5 WITNESS HAROLD NORMAN

+6 More

0:30

NOW PLAYING

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Norman never described the "boom-click-click" sequence in his testimony. He told the FBI that, " I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots." He also told the FBI that, "I knew that the shots had come from directly above me" because he could, "hear the expended cartidges fall to the floor". He further stated that he could, "hear the bolt action of the rifle." ( CE 493 / 17 H 208 )

But actions speak louder than words.

The interesting thing about this 'boom-click-click" nonsense is that in spite of their being close enough to the gunman to hear the shells hitting the floor and the operation of the bolt and knowing, "that the shots came from above", all three witnesses ( Jarman, Norman and Williams ) ran to the west end of the building to look out the windows facing the grassy knoll.

I'm not buying their stories.

A black man in the racist South in the 1960s and the President of the United States has just been assassinated from ( according to police ) your building. You're one floor below where they claim the shots were fired from and closer to it than any other known person.

You know that the color of your skin makes you a prime suspect. What are you going to say ? What are you going to do ? You know you're innocent. You're going to tell them whatever they want to hear.

Because you know that innocent black men have been found hanging from trees for much less.

Add to this Amos Euins' original description to police that the man he saw with the rifle was a black man.

And if you have to make things up, you're going to make things up. Other things you're not going to remember, like Norman testifying that he had lunch in the Domino Room with someone but couldn't remember who that someone was. ( 3 H 189 )

Watching Norman's testimony in this mock trial and I can see that he's a witness who has been thoroughly prepared for testimony by the prosecution.

Anything these witnesses had to say has to be taken with an enormous grain of salt, given the pressure they were under.

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Gil Jesus]

On 8/30/2023 at 10:26 AM, Pete Mellor said:

Somewhat off topic to your thread Gil, but I've always wondered how that sequence fits in with JFK's & J.C.'s known wounds & what is seen in Zapruder's film. 🤨

They don't fit, Pete.

First he tells Bugliosi that he heard one shot, then two more shots.

He then describes for Spence a rhythm of the shots that are evenly spaced and take a total of 4 seconds.

To answer your question, I've taken Norman's sequence and added it to the Zapruder film ( with frame numbers ), lining up the last "Boom" with Z-frame 313 just to show you how far off he was.

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/boom_click_click_zapruder.mp4

His first shot about frame 256, the second around 284 and the third at 313.

Average time between shots according to Norman: 28-29 Z-frames or 1.6 seconds.

There's no way the C 2766 rifle could be recycled that fast.

Therefore, either he didn't hear three shots evenly spaced or the rifle he heard was not the C 2766 rifle.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Evan Marshall]

Shooting one rifle doesn't prove as much as we'd like. I own several Russian Mosin Nagants and no two of them eject brass in the same location. And two M-1 Garands are no better nor my Ar-15's.