Paul Landis Revelation About Assassination Bullet

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

There was never any credible evidence that the back wound perforated the body.

The FBI agents there were very strong on this issue.

As Wecht said in Stone's film, that was an idea that evolved over time from necessity.  

But there is a back wound in the pictures.

So the other side is stuck with the facts that there is a wound there, but utterly no evidence that the projectile perforated the body. 

So where did it go?

The bullet Landis is talking about cannot be CE 399. How could it possibly eject from Connally's thigh into the back seat. 

And it cannot be the one found allegedly on Connally's stretcher.

So this is the problem Landis presents for the other side.  I liked what Daily Beast tried to do: the bullet bounced off of Kennedy's stretcher into Connally's.  

LOL, 🙃

The Daily Beast has become an out-and-out CIA-shadow government mouthpiece. 

Sadly, it presents itself as leftish, hip, Donk-side, and must capture some minds on that side. 

 

 

[Jason Nixon]

The necessity for perception management is truly breathtaking. History is not yet written. 

The ministry of truth is crumbling all around the world. It won't be long before the cracks finally reach Langley.

Then Americans can put away their pot pills.

[Michael Griffith]

Landis has come forward with his disclosure about finding a bullet lodged in the back seat because he knows he is nearing the end of his life and wants this information to be revealed before he dies. It is close to being tantamount to a death-bed confession.

Given the situation that existed in the hours and days after the assassination, it is perfectly understandable why Landis decided not to reveal his finding of the bullet.

Look at Kenny O'Donnell's very belated disclosure to Tip O'Neill that he was certain some shots had come from the grassy knoll. That's not what O'Donnell said in his WC testimony. He told O'Neill that he did tell the FBI about hearing shots from the knoll, but that they told him he "must have been imagining things," and so O'Donnell chose to testify "the way they wanted me to." Yet, years later, he finally revealed the truth to his good friend Tip O'Neill, and Dave Powers, who rode in the follow-up car with O'Donnell, confirmed O'Donnell's account.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Greg Doudna]

I think the shallow upper back wound that did not penetrate may be correct, and also there may be something to the Paul Landis bullet or fragment given the 1983 article found by David von Pein.

But I am having difficulty seeing how an intact bullet could reverse itself out of JFK’s back and place itself in a crevice at the top of the rear seat, in the space of four minutes. 

If the shallow back wound is accurate, that has to have been a bullet that exploded into powder upon hitting the bottom side of a rib going in with nothing intact left to be found in the body. And the throat wound must then be a through-and-through from the front with an upward trajectory from the storm drain post-Z312 and exiting near the rear EOP of the back of the head, the reverse direction but same path argued by Pat Speer, the reported original theory of both bullet path and direction of Cyril de Wecht. 

Then the Landis bullet piece might be from some ricochet or something inside the limo from one of the head shots? (Or a Connally through and through shot?)

It’s just a puzzle. 

Gut feeling though is the deathbed confession interpretation more than the book enrichment for heirs interpretation. 

Second gut feeling: it is not C399. Hypothesis: the mystery of what happened to the fragment was easily though wrongly thought connected to the mystery of explanation of how C399 came to be? In that light, maybe Landis does not remember at this point what he did with the bullet piece that day? And has filled in an absence of memory with his story of walking it in since he reasons he “must have” done so?

I have seen 90-plus year old John Curington change details in his telling of stories from published versions decades earlier, in ways that look to me that he believed the changed version detail. My father’s true World War II Pacific Theatre combat war experiences in the tellings over the years, same phenomenon. Has something like that happened with Paul Landis’s memory?

Edited September 12, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Michael Griffith]

29 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

I think the shallow upper back wound that did not penetrate may be correct, and also there may be something to the Paul Landis bullet or fragment given the 1983 article found by David von Pein.

But I am having difficulty seeing how an intact bullet could reverse itself out of JFK’s back and place itself in a crevice at the top of the rear seat, in the space of four minutes. 

If the shallow back wound is accurate, that has to have been a bullet that exploded into powder upon hitting the bottom side of a rib going in with nothing intact left to be found in the body. And the throat wound must then be a through-and-through from the front with an upward trajectory from the storm drain at about Z330 and exiting near the rear EOP of the back of the head, the reverse direction but same path argued by Pat Speer, the reported original theory of both bullet path and direction of Cyril de Wecht. 

Then the Landis bullet piece might be from some ricochet or something inside the limo from one of the head shots? (Or a Connally through and through shot?)

It’s just a puzzle. 

Gut feeling though is the deathbed confession interpretation more than the book enrichment for heirs interpretation. 

Second gut feeling: it is not C399. Hypothesis: the mystery of what happened to the fragment was easily thought wrongly connected to the mystery of explanation of how C399 came to be? In that light, maybe Landis does not remember at this point what he did with the bullet piece that day? And has filled in an absence of memory with his story of walking it in since he reasons he “must have” done so?

I have seen 90-plus year old John Curington change details in his telling of stories from published versions decades earlier, in ways that look to me that he believed the changed version detail. My father’s true World War II Pacific Theatre combat war experiences in the tellings over the years, same phenomenon. Has something like that happened with Paul Landis’s memory?

Finding a bullet lodged in the back seat is a very specific event that does not seem to lend itself to being imagined. Also, the fact that Landis privately shared this with Clint Hill, and that Hill advised him--in an email--against revealing it because it would cause too much controversy, indicates that Landis is telling the truth. 

I don't think this bullet was the bullet that hit JFK's back. I think it was just missed shot, perhaps even the bullet that came through the windshield.

However, the shallow back wound is firmly established by the ARRB materials and other disclosures. As I have documented in this forum, the record is clear and compelling that on the night of the autopsy, the autopsy doctors were absolutely, positively certain that the back wound had no exit point. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Greg Doudna]

Just brainstorming here, but … I don’t know whether that crevice area at the top of the back seat was positioned, but if it was in a center position, then just possibly could the Landis bullet be from the hypothesized through-and-through shot from the front through JFKs throat and exit near the EOP, post-Z312 from the storm drain, since that would be approximately where in the rear seat JFK was leaned over or located at the time of that hypothesized shot?

But if the crevice was to one end or the other of the rear seat, scratch that, wouldn’t work. 

[David Von Pein]

11 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Given the situation that existed in the hours and days after the assassination, it is perfectly understandable why Landis decided not to reveal his finding of the bullet.

No it isn't. It's not "perfectly understandable" to me at all. In fact, it's totally mystifying to me as to why on Earth he didn't TELL SOMEONE about the bullet IMMEDIATELY after putting it on JFK's stretcher (if, in fact, that's what he did).

And the reason for why his total silence is not believable (or "understandable") is because at the time Landis did what he said he did with that bullet, he had absolutely no knowledge or information about any of the details concerning the assassination. He had no idea who Oswald was at that time and he had no idea if a conspiracy might be involved. He knew nothing at that point. And yet he tells NOBODY about finding (and moving!) an important piece of evidence like a bullet?!

Such dead silence by a member of the U.S. Secret Service (or anyone in law enforcement) in such a situation is completely beyond belief, not to mention totally irresponsible on Landis' part.

And, in my opinion, even if it had been days or weeks or months later that he had somehow come across a piece of new evidence connected with JFK's death, it still would not be at all "perfectly understandable" that he would just keep completely silent about coming into contact with such a piece of potentially vital evidence in the case of a murdered President.

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

No it isn't. It's not "perfectly understandable" to me at all. In fact, it's totally mystifying to me as to why on Earth he didn't TELL SOMEONE about the bullet IMMEDIATELY after putting it on JFK's stretcher (if, in fact, that's what he did).

And the reason for why his total silence is not believable (or "understandable") is because at the time Landis did what he said he did with that bullet, he had absolutely no knowledge or information about any of the details concerning the assassination. He had no idea who Oswald was at that time and he had no idea if a conspiracy might be involved. He knew nothing at that point. And yet he tells NOBODY about finding (and moving!) an important piece of evidence like a bullet?!

Such dead silence by a member of the U.S. Secret Service (or anyone in law enforcement) in such a situation is completely beyond belief, not to mention totally irresponsible on Landis' part.

And, in my opinion, even if it had been days or weeks or months later that he had somehow come across a piece of new evidence connected with JFK's death, it still would not be at all "perfectly understandable" that he would just keep completely silent about coming into contact with such a piece of potentially vital evidence in the case of a murdered President.

 

"Such dead silence by a member of the U.S. Secret Service (or anyone in law enforcement) in such a situation is completely beyond belief, not to mention totally irresponsible on Landis' part."--DVP

Not sure about that.

Consider this: Chief Curry and Sheriff Decker were in the lead car in front of the limo. In the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, both ordered their forces to the GK-Overpass area, believing the shots had come from there. 

Curry would later tell the WC he did not know where the shots had come from, and did not tell the WC he initially heard the shots as coming from the GK area. 

In the immediate days after the JFKA, neither Curry or Decker would say, "Well, we heard the shots as coming from the Grassy Knoll area, and sent our forces up there. That area should be explored thoroughly. We might be mistaken, but we heard what we heard." 

Curry and Decker did not even work for the federal government, but were still loath to offer their testimony. 

Landis may have realized he erred in his actions on the slug he found, and decided to go mum, and let officials do what they were going to do.  He left the Secret Service shortly thereafter.  

I would like to know more about what Landis actually did with the slug he said he found. How did he put it by a stretcher? 

[Vince Palamara]

On 9/11/2023 at 11:35 AM, David Josephs said:

Seems pretty simple, straightforward book marketing at its finest.

Doesn't matter what he's said all along - you think anyone but us even has a clue? - by questioning the SBT he almost guarantees a best-seller.

Worse yet, despite scientific impossibility, Landis' words will be taken seriously and confuse those looking into the case for years to come. {sigh}.  The man blew off his primary responsibilities, got plowed until 5am and NOW wants to come clean with a best selling book and more confusion about the facts of the case.  Red card!

 

@Vince Palamara Hope you don't mind but found this in my stuff... not sure if all this remains the same today for you yet this was a great recap... thanks!

 

The Secret Service and CE 399
by Vincent Michael Palamara 

       The following is a compendium of all the anomolies
pertaining to what I like to refer to as the "legitimacy" of
CE399, including the Secret Service's handling of it:

[in no particular order]

1) CE2011-O.P. Wright, Darrel Tomlinson, Chief James J. Rowley,
and SA Richard Johnsen could NOT identify CE399 as the bullet
they all allegedly  handled on 11/22/63 ("over-the-counter"
references: "JFK-Conspiracy of Silence", p. 133; "Crossfire", p.
365; "Reasonable Doubt", p. 70);

2) 24H412-Although two FBI agents (Todd and Frazier) initialed the
bullet they received from the Secret Service, Johnsen and Rowley
did NOT, breaking the legal chain of custody;

3) CD7-Although the bullet was "officially" found on a stretcher 
in a corridor of  Parkland Hospital, the FBI(Sibert and O'Neil)
reported that it was found in the emergency room!;

4) a)Sibert and O'Neil  interview of  SAIC Jerry Behn,
11/27/63-the same FBI agents bypassed Johnsen and spoke instead
to Behn(not even IN Dallas) about "the location of a bullet which
had been found on a stretcher at Parkland";

4) b) RIF#180-10104-10481:HSCA interview of SAIC Behn-
Incredibly, Behn "stated that he was in the chain of custody of
CE 399-Behn received the bullet from Johnsen, then turned it over
to the FBI" [DJ: Johnsen gives it to ROWLEY who gives it to TODD who gives it to FRAZIER, no BEHN];

5) Price Exhibits, Warren Commission Volume XXI - O.P. Wright, 
the man who allegedly gave the bullet to Johnsen at Parkland, 
does not even  MENTION this very important find at all in his
report(?!);

6) Darrel Tomlinson, O.P. Wright, Nathan Pool-all described a
DIFFERENT bullet than CE399(pointed, hunting-type)["Six Seconds
in Dallas"; "High Treason", p. 102; HSCA document-interview with
Nathan Pool, 1/10/77; etc.]. According to research done by Josiah
Thompson, the bullet was found on a stretcher used by a young boy
named Ronny Fuller!;

7) LBJ Library document-Memorandum to File-According to Chief
James J. Rowley, CE399  "was found amongst the clothes on one of
the stretchers." If that wasn't enough,  Governor Connally 
stated in his autobiography called "In History's Shadow"," But 
the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me 
off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object 
fell onto the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. 
The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was 
the BULLET FROM MY BODY, the one that passed through my back, 
chest, and wrist, and worked itself loose from my thigh" 
(emphasis added-p.18; "The Investigator" Feb-May 1994). 
Corroborating Connally's memory, from the 11/21/93 Dallas Morning
News interview with Henry Wade:" I also went out to see 
Connally, but he was in the operating room(note the time frame).
Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the 
gurney that Connally was on...I told her to give it to the police,
which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet"
("The Investigator" Feb-May 1994). Finally, Gary Shaw (in the 
11/22/93 "Dateline: Dallas" issue) came across this passage from 
the Warren Commission testimony of Parkland nurse Jeanette 
Standridge:
 
     Specter: "Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's
clothing?"
     Standridge:"Not unusual"
     Specter:" Did you notice a bullet, specifically?"
     Standridge:"No"
     Specter:" Did you hear the sound of anything fall?"
     Standridge:"I didn't"
  
 Is THIS "CE399"? What's going on here?

😎 Bill Greer-Although it is an "official" fact that Agent 
Richard Johnsen gained possession of CE399 (a.k.a. "the magic 
bullet," linked to Oswald's gun) via O.P. Wright (who obtained 
it thru Darrel Tomlinson AND Nathan Pool, who obtained it in the
PRESENCE of Secret Service agent[s]) at Parkland Hospital, what 
has never been widely reported is the fact that Agent Greer 
maintained VERY close proximity to Johnsen and the bullet in
question (18H799-800):

      a) BOTH agents guarded the emergency room(Trauma Room
1)-Greer inside, Johnsen outside(2H126; 18H798);

      b) IF the FBI's report is accurate(see # 3[CD7] above),
Greer was the ONLY agent stationed inside the emergency room with
JFK;
      c)Johnsen rode with Greer in a car on the way to Air Force
One (along with fellow agents David Grant, Samuel Sulliman,
Ernest Olsson, and Paul Landis)-and we're supposed to believe
that ALL these agents remained  silent about the bullet!(18H799;
18H723);

      d)Greer rode with Johnsen near the casket in the REAR of
Air Force One(from the point of time starting with the swearing
in of LBJ, when the MAJORITY of agents/people were up
front[18H799; 2H126))...

      When we consider that  both Greer AND Kellerman remained
silent about this bullet until it was announced by Chief Rowley
that night during the autopsy (via a phone call TO Kellerman!),
we have to wonder about the implications of this "silence"-- in 
a recently uncovered HSCA document, Roy Kellerman stated that 
SA Johnsen told him about the  bullet  while they were still at
PARKLAND(HSCA document, interviews with Kellerman, outside
contact report, 8/24-8/25/77)!!!! This early knowledge is
troubling because of the following:
     
     Once the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital was underway,
Greer "said that a bullet had been found on a stretcher-or rather
as it fell from a stretcher- in Parkland Hospital...could this be
the bullet that went INTO THE NECK and, in the jostling of the
President on the stretcher, FELL OUT?" As author Jim Bishop
reported (thru his interview with Greer [and Kellerman])," GREER's
THESIS had a supporter. Roy Kellerman ... said he remembered a
Parkland doctor astride the chest of the dead President, applying
artificial respiration. Kellerman...thought the bullet in the
BACK...might have been squeezed out by manual pressure..."("The
Day Kennedy was Shot", page 498,530; see also Tomlinson-2H412;
Greer-2H127; Kellerman-2H93)!

      Why would they even need Rowley's call to "alert" them to
the bullet found at Parkland and given to the FBI (two agents --
Sibert and O'Neil -- were in attendance with Greer and
Kellerman at the autopsy)? Why would Rowley "order" Kellerman to
tell the autopsy doctors about something he already knew about?
It gets better (or worse, depending on which way you see it)...    

9) During an interview conducted on 9/29/92, the author learned
that Agent Richard Johnsen DID NOT REMEMBER having possession of
CE399!?!? ("The Third Alternative-Survivor's Guilt:the Secret
Service and the JFK Murder", p. 43-see also pages 30,31,52,53,
and 65;"The Investigator" Dec '93/Jan '94-article by author).
Furthermore, Johnsen mentions in his first report that the
bullet, quote, "may" have originated from Governor Connally's
stretcher -- obviously, one of the components of the "single 
bullet theory" is having the bullet on Connally's stretcher; if 
the bullet was found on JFK's stretcher (or Ronny Fuller's, or
elsewhere), the theory is in big trouble. Interestingly, Johnsen
retired in 1979, having never been questioned by the FBI, the
Warren Commission, or the HSCA, and when I tried, I received very
cantankerous responses(it was the day after contacting Johnsen
that I received  the infamous call from the Executive Secretary
of the Former Agents of the Secret Service, "Percy" Hamilton 
Brown, telling me very angrily to "cease and desist from
contacting any more of my associates...I gave you no authority to
do so." As former agent Bob Lilly told me, "Who died and made him
boss?!" Sam Kinney told me, "Hey, it's a free country!"). As for
Johnsen's "second" report, a sort of mini-report enclosed with
his first report having to do with the acquisition of CE399, it
is UNSIGNED. (18H799-800;this report actually exists seperately,
as new documents uncovered from the LBJ Library reveal, although
the same report as reproduced in the Warren Commission Volumes
gives the impression it is part of the same[first] report, due to
its juxtoposition on TOP of the first report). There may be more
to Johnsen's present "amnesia" over this evidence than meets the
eye...

10) CBS' Eddie Barker [whose son is a Secret Service
agent!] interview of O.P. Wright ("Postmortem", p. 46)-"...I got
hold of a Secret Service man and THEY[sic?] didn't seem to be
interested in coming and looking at the bullet in the position it
was in then. So I went back to the area where Mr. Tomlinson was
and picked up the bullet and put it in my pocket, and I carried
it some 30 or 40 minutes. And I gave it to a Secret Service man
that was guarding the main door into the emergency room..."Who
was the first agent Wright spoke to? And was his use of the word
"they" a mistake? NO...

      HSCA attorney Belford V. Lawson*, in charge of the Secret
Service area of the "investigation," is the author of a recently
uncovered memo in regard to an interview with Nathan Pool
conducted on 1/10/77 and headlined "POOL's CO-DISCOVERY OF THE
'TOMLINSON' BULLET." In the memo, Pool mentions the fact that TWO
Secret Service agents were by the elevator, one of which "
remained there throughout most or all of  Pool's stay". Before we
can catch our breath, a THIRD Secret Service agent enters the
picture; although all these men were in the immediate vicinity of
the discovery of the bullet, one particular  agent "was within 10
feet when Pool recognized the bullet". According to Pool, the
bullet was pointed, and he added that it "didn't look like it had
hit anything and didn't look like it had been in anything".

     Lawson felt that further development of Pool's testimony may
reveal the following:

QUOTE: "A SECRET SERVICE AGENT WAS FOR A SIGNIFICANT PERIOD OF
TIME CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE ELEVATOR TO PLANT A BULLET; MAY LEAD TO
AN IDENTIFICATION OF THAT AGENT..."

And you thought only "assassination buffs" came up with
compelling  assertions...

*a former adviser to JFK on civil rights; a D.C. political
figure; any relation to WINSTON G. LAWSON, in charge of the
advance security in Dallas?
 

My pleasure! 

 

[Vince Palamara]

On 9/11/2023 at 2:25 PM, James DiEugenio said:

A follower of K and K left me this quote from long ago which VInce P should recall.

It took me a while to find it again but I knew I had written the quote in the comments section.

 

Entitled "First Annual Midwest Symposium on JFK part 3 6/26 - 6/28/92 Chicago, Illinois " from Vince Palamara YouTube channel. 

 

"During the last days of the public hearings of the House Select Committee, Congressman, now Senator Dodd, gave the most important revelation. He stood up or sat up and asked Professor Blakely to answer him one question. And he said, Mr. Blakely, will you please explain to me about the bullet that was found in the President's limousine that cannot be ballistically matched to the Oswald weapon? Congressman Dodd never received an answer....to this day."

Yes, indeed! Excellent!

[Vince Palamara]

On 9/11/2023 at 2:10 PM, K K Lane said:

Discussion of Landis' claim on this forum have been predominantly analytical and respectful.   Posner's substack was essentially a hit-piece and Clint Hill's reaction is, of course, tendentious.

My questions for Landis include:

• Please distinguish the bullet you are now referring to compared to the bullet fragment that since 1983 you've claimed you found in the limo.   Are these "bullets" the same?   Is the new bullet in addition to the bullet fragments?   Does the whole bullet you now recall finding in the limo physically resemble CE399?
• Please explain your thinking in November 1963 for not reporting this found bullet in your written reports.   Was there explicity or implicit pressure to express or not express certain viewpoints?   What form did that pressure come in?   Are there additional unspoken revelations that you're aware of from your SS peers?
• When did you first tell another person about the whole bullet you now report having found in the limo?   What is the oldest written document or letter that references this 2023 found bullet?
• Please share your thoughts on the propriety of a SS agent not including a found bullet in your post-assassination report.   Was evidence chain of custody part of your SS training?   Do you have a sense of the historic importance of what you are now revealing?   

Personally, I'd like Vince to get "the interview"

I tried several times to interview Landis and he refused every time. He is much aware of me: 

 

[Vince Palamara]

13 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Landis has come forward with his disclosure about finding a bullet lodged in the back seat because he knows he is nearing the end of his life and wants this information to be revealed before he dies. It is close to being tantamount to a death-bed confession.

Given the situation that existed in the hours and days after the assassination, it is perfectly understandable why Landis decided not to reveal his finding of the bullet.

Look at Kenny O'Donnell's very belated disclosure to Tip O'Neill that he was certain some shots had come from the grassy knoll. That's not what O'Donnell said in his WC testimony. He told O'Neill that he did tell the FBI about hearing shots from the knoll, but that they told him he "must have been imagining things," and so O'Donnell chose to testify "the way they wanted me to." Yet, years later, he finally revealed the truth to his good friend Tip O'Neill, and Dave Powers, who rode in the follow-up car with O'Donnell, confirmed O'Donnell's account.

 

[Peter Fokes]

David VP,

Honourable day one witness Landis is fully aware of the throat wound, David. 

I praise him for coming forward with this new evidence. 

I thank him for his new

. bullet point. 
 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Ben Cole: 

The Daily Beast has become an out-and-out CIA-shadow government mouthpiece. 

Sadly, it presents itself as leftish, hip, Donk-side, and must capture some minds on that side. 

I really think there might be something to this.

[David Von Pein]

17 minutes ago, Peter Fokes said:

Honourable day one witness Landis is fully aware of the throat wound, David. 

So, what's your point?