Paul Landis Revelation About Assassination Bullet

[Charles Blackmon]

10 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

if it really was some shock-driven act of evidence tampering stupidity and he was worried about getting in trouble he could have asked the HSCA to grant him immunity or something. 

Before you judge this man's actions you really need to try and put yourself in his shoes post- Nov 22, 1963. If he knew he did something wrong (evidence tampering) then that would be a perilous situation for him. One option was to stay quiet. There are probably dozens of JFKA witnesses who decided to "stay quiet" for fear of repercussions.

[Charles Blackmon]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

 

I think that K and K or some other website should create a tally board, with a list of 20 or so issues, along with the current feelings of the most prominent researchers on these issues. This would be of help to the media in cases like this one.

Excellent idea!!!

[K K Lane]

Reposting this summary from my "timeline thread":

Five key areas of evolving views:

• Shot count.   Landis said two shots in November 1963 which he repeated at least through 1983.   At some point he started saying three shots which is his current view.
• Found fragment.   Landis said nothing about a found fragment in the limo in his 1963 reports.   By 1983 he mentions finding a fragment in the limo; he reiterates that in 2010, and in 2023 the fragment has become a whole bullet - slightly deformed.
• Disposition of bullet/fragment.   In 1983, Landis claimed he gave the bullet fragment to somebody.   In 2010, Landis claimed he put the bullet fragment on the limo seat.   In 2023 he claims he put the whole bullet on a stretcher.
• Shots from the grassy knoll.   Landis identified the head shot as coming from the grassy knoll starting in 1963.   He persisted in that belief for four decades or so but now claims that there was no grassy knoll shot.
• CT.   Landis seems to have opposed the idea of a conspiracy initially and up until very recent years.

[David Josephs]

Seems pretty simple, straightforward book marketing at its finest.

Doesn't matter what he's said all along - you think anyone but us even has a clue? - by questioning the SBT he almost guarantees a best-seller.

Worse yet, despite scientific impossibility, Landis' words will be taken seriously and confuse those looking into the case for years to come. {sigh}.  The man blew off his primary responsibilities, got plowed until 5am and NOW wants to come clean with a best selling book and more confusion about the facts of the case.  Red card!

 

@Vince Palamara Hope you don't mind but found this in my stuff... not sure if all this remains the same today for you yet this was a great recap... thanks!

 

The Secret Service and CE 399
by Vincent Michael Palamara 

       The following is a compendium of all the anomolies
pertaining to what I like to refer to as the "legitimacy" of
CE399, including the Secret Service's handling of it:

[in no particular order]

1) CE2011-O.P. Wright, Darrel Tomlinson, Chief James J. Rowley,
and SA Richard Johnsen could NOT identify CE399 as the bullet
they all allegedly  handled on 11/22/63 ("over-the-counter"
references: "JFK-Conspiracy of Silence", p. 133; "Crossfire", p.
365; "Reasonable Doubt", p. 70);

2) 24H412-Although two FBI agents (Todd and Frazier) initialed the
bullet they received from the Secret Service, Johnsen and Rowley
did NOT, breaking the legal chain of custody;

3) CD7-Although the bullet was "officially" found on a stretcher 
in a corridor of  Parkland Hospital, the FBI(Sibert and O'Neil)
reported that it was found in the emergency room!;

4) a)Sibert and O'Neil  interview of  SAIC Jerry Behn,
11/27/63-the same FBI agents bypassed Johnsen and spoke instead
to Behn(not even IN Dallas) about "the location of a bullet which
had been found on a stretcher at Parkland";

4) b) RIF#180-10104-10481:HSCA interview of SAIC Behn-
Incredibly, Behn "stated that he was in the chain of custody of
CE 399-Behn received the bullet from Johnsen, then turned it over
to the FBI" [DJ: Johnsen gives it to ROWLEY who gives it to TODD who gives it to FRAZIER, no BEHN];

5) Price Exhibits, Warren Commission Volume XXI - O.P. Wright, 
the man who allegedly gave the bullet to Johnsen at Parkland, 
does not even  MENTION this very important find at all in his
report(?!);

6) Darrel Tomlinson, O.P. Wright, Nathan Pool-all described a
DIFFERENT bullet than CE399(pointed, hunting-type)["Six Seconds
in Dallas"; "High Treason", p. 102; HSCA document-interview with
Nathan Pool, 1/10/77; etc.]. According to research done by Josiah
Thompson, the bullet was found on a stretcher used by a young boy
named Ronny Fuller!;

7) LBJ Library document-Memorandum to File-According to Chief
James J. Rowley, CE399  "was found amongst the clothes on one of
the stretchers." If that wasn't enough,  Governor Connally 
stated in his autobiography called "In History's Shadow"," But 
the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me 
off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object 
fell onto the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. 
The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was 
the BULLET FROM MY BODY, the one that passed through my back, 
chest, and wrist, and worked itself loose from my thigh" 
(emphasis added-p.18; "The Investigator" Feb-May 1994). 
Corroborating Connally's memory, from the 11/21/93 Dallas Morning
News interview with Henry Wade:" I also went out to see 
Connally, but he was in the operating room(note the time frame).
Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the 
gurney that Connally was on...I told her to give it to the police,
which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet"
("The Investigator" Feb-May 1994). Finally, Gary Shaw (in the 
11/22/93 "Dateline: Dallas" issue) came across this passage from 
the Warren Commission testimony of Parkland nurse Jeanette 
Standridge:
 
     Specter: "Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's
clothing?"
     Standridge:"Not unusual"
     Specter:" Did you notice a bullet, specifically?"
     Standridge:"No"
     Specter:" Did you hear the sound of anything fall?"
     Standridge:"I didn't"
  
 Is THIS "CE399"? What's going on here?

😎 Bill Greer-Although it is an "official" fact that Agent 
Richard Johnsen gained possession of CE399 (a.k.a. "the magic 
bullet," linked to Oswald's gun) via O.P. Wright (who obtained 
it thru Darrel Tomlinson AND Nathan Pool, who obtained it in the
PRESENCE of Secret Service agent[s]) at Parkland Hospital, what 
has never been widely reported is the fact that Agent Greer 
maintained VERY close proximity to Johnsen and the bullet in
question (18H799-800):

      a) BOTH agents guarded the emergency room(Trauma Room
1)-Greer inside, Johnsen outside(2H126; 18H798);

      b) IF the FBI's report is accurate(see # 3[CD7] above),
Greer was the ONLY agent stationed inside the emergency room with
JFK;
      c)Johnsen rode with Greer in a car on the way to Air Force
One (along with fellow agents David Grant, Samuel Sulliman,
Ernest Olsson, and Paul Landis)-and we're supposed to believe
that ALL these agents remained  silent about the bullet!(18H799;
18H723);

      d)Greer rode with Johnsen near the casket in the REAR of
Air Force One(from the point of time starting with the swearing
in of LBJ, when the MAJORITY of agents/people were up
front[18H799; 2H126))...

      When we consider that  both Greer AND Kellerman remained
silent about this bullet until it was announced by Chief Rowley
that night during the autopsy (via a phone call TO Kellerman!),
we have to wonder about the implications of this "silence"-- in 
a recently uncovered HSCA document, Roy Kellerman stated that 
SA Johnsen told him about the  bullet  while they were still at
PARKLAND(HSCA document, interviews with Kellerman, outside
contact report, 8/24-8/25/77)!!!! This early knowledge is
troubling because of the following:
     
     Once the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital was underway,
Greer "said that a bullet had been found on a stretcher-or rather
as it fell from a stretcher- in Parkland Hospital...could this be
the bullet that went INTO THE NECK and, in the jostling of the
President on the stretcher, FELL OUT?" As author Jim Bishop
reported (thru his interview with Greer [and Kellerman])," GREER's
THESIS had a supporter. Roy Kellerman ... said he remembered a
Parkland doctor astride the chest of the dead President, applying
artificial respiration. Kellerman...thought the bullet in the
BACK...might have been squeezed out by manual pressure..."("The
Day Kennedy was Shot", page 498,530; see also Tomlinson-2H412;
Greer-2H127; Kellerman-2H93)!

      Why would they even need Rowley's call to "alert" them to
the bullet found at Parkland and given to the FBI (two agents --
Sibert and O'Neil -- were in attendance with Greer and
Kellerman at the autopsy)? Why would Rowley "order" Kellerman to
tell the autopsy doctors about something he already knew about?
It gets better (or worse, depending on which way you see it)...    

9) During an interview conducted on 9/29/92, the author learned
that Agent Richard Johnsen DID NOT REMEMBER having possession of
CE399!?!? ("The Third Alternative-Survivor's Guilt:the Secret
Service and the JFK Murder", p. 43-see also pages 30,31,52,53,
and 65;"The Investigator" Dec '93/Jan '94-article by author).
Furthermore, Johnsen mentions in his first report that the
bullet, quote, "may" have originated from Governor Connally's
stretcher -- obviously, one of the components of the "single 
bullet theory" is having the bullet on Connally's stretcher; if 
the bullet was found on JFK's stretcher (or Ronny Fuller's, or
elsewhere), the theory is in big trouble. Interestingly, Johnsen
retired in 1979, having never been questioned by the FBI, the
Warren Commission, or the HSCA, and when I tried, I received very
cantankerous responses(it was the day after contacting Johnsen
that I received  the infamous call from the Executive Secretary
of the Former Agents of the Secret Service, "Percy" Hamilton 
Brown, telling me very angrily to "cease and desist from
contacting any more of my associates...I gave you no authority to
do so." As former agent Bob Lilly told me, "Who died and made him
boss?!" Sam Kinney told me, "Hey, it's a free country!"). As for
Johnsen's "second" report, a sort of mini-report enclosed with
his first report having to do with the acquisition of CE399, it
is UNSIGNED. (18H799-800;this report actually exists seperately,
as new documents uncovered from the LBJ Library reveal, although
the same report as reproduced in the Warren Commission Volumes
gives the impression it is part of the same[first] report, due to
its juxtoposition on TOP of the first report). There may be more
to Johnsen's present "amnesia" over this evidence than meets the
eye...

10) CBS' Eddie Barker [whose son is a Secret Service
agent!] interview of O.P. Wright ("Postmortem", p. 46)-"...I got
hold of a Secret Service man and THEY[sic?] didn't seem to be
interested in coming and looking at the bullet in the position it
was in then. So I went back to the area where Mr. Tomlinson was
and picked up the bullet and put it in my pocket, and I carried
it some 30 or 40 minutes. And I gave it to a Secret Service man
that was guarding the main door into the emergency room..."Who
was the first agent Wright spoke to? And was his use of the word
"they" a mistake? NO...

      HSCA attorney Belford V. Lawson*, in charge of the Secret
Service area of the "investigation," is the author of a recently
uncovered memo in regard to an interview with Nathan Pool
conducted on 1/10/77 and headlined "POOL's CO-DISCOVERY OF THE
'TOMLINSON' BULLET." In the memo, Pool mentions the fact that TWO
Secret Service agents were by the elevator, one of which "
remained there throughout most or all of  Pool's stay". Before we
can catch our breath, a THIRD Secret Service agent enters the
picture; although all these men were in the immediate vicinity of
the discovery of the bullet, one particular  agent "was within 10
feet when Pool recognized the bullet". According to Pool, the
bullet was pointed, and he added that it "didn't look like it had
hit anything and didn't look like it had been in anything".

     Lawson felt that further development of Pool's testimony may
reveal the following:

QUOTE: "A SECRET SERVICE AGENT WAS FOR A SIGNIFICANT PERIOD OF
TIME CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE ELEVATOR TO PLANT A BULLET; MAY LEAD TO
AN IDENTIFICATION OF THAT AGENT..."

And you thought only "assassination buffs" came up with
compelling  assertions...

*a former adviser to JFK on civil rights; a D.C. political
figure; any relation to WINSTON G. LAWSON, in charge of the
advance security in Dallas?
 

[Michael Griffith]

It is very easy to understand why Landis did not reveal that he found a bullet embedded in the limo's back seat: Obviously, that bullet was fired from the front, not from behind. It could not have been fired from the alleged sniper's nest, or from any other point behind the limo, and then made a magical U-turn to embed itself in the back seat. It came from a point in front of the limo. 

As we all know, literally within two hours of the shooting, if not sooner, the TV and radio airwaves were flooded with references to a single shooter who fired from behind the limo. Virtually all news reports spoke of a single shooter and a single suspect, Oswald. 

Landis would have caused an enormous firestorm if he had revealed that he had found a bullet lodged in the back seat of the limo. Landis undoubtedly realized this and chose to stay silent about it. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Let's tease this apart. 

1.  we only have news articles with selected excertps. Mr. Landis  will be speaking at the Wecht institute on November  15th where we will have opportunity to ask questions. Until then, any attacks of his story or pronouncements that the SBT are premature and simply knee-jerk reaction. As a former secret service agent, i think we need to treat him with respect until such time that we have the chance to examine his story.

2.  it is quite possible that Clint Hill did not see a bullet that may have been under or stuck between the bodies of JFK and Jackie. Hill never examined the backseat after the president was removed and he helped Jackie out of the car.

3. The NYT piece says that Hill cautioned Landis from writing his book because of "implications". Would be interesting if he was referring to personal implications or bigger picture implications. Not surprisingly, Hill went on NBC last night to discredit the story, 

Dr. James Young said in his oral history of the Naval Medical Bureau Office of History in 2001 that a mishapened bullet was found by corpsmen that were sent to the limo to retrieve skull fragments during the autopsy at the request of Boswell so they could try to reconstruct the president's head. Young said a an envelope with the bullet was sent to Boswell. this bullet has been lost to history.

4. A Mr. Louck claimed some years ago that his former neighbor, Sam Kinney (the backup car vehicle), told Louck that HE had found a bullet in the front carpet of the limo and HE was the one who placed it on the gurney. After I interviewed him several times (more like a"soft" cross-examination), I found his account not credible. But the idea that any secret service agent would tamper with evidence to a murder is just incredible. I would like to know if Mr, Landis was aware of this account.

5. Mr. Landis' November 30th statement is interesting because he said he scanned the windows and roofs while riding in the backup car. when they turned onto Houston street, he reports that he looked at a building that had to be the TSBD and said all windows were closed and no one was in the windows! He also says he believes the head shot was from the front. 

     

[K K Lane]

Discussion of Landis' claim on this forum have been predominantly analytical and respectful.   Posner's substack was essentially a hit-piece and Clint Hill's reaction is, of course, tendentious.

My questions for Landis include:

• Please distinguish the bullet you are now referring to compared to the bullet fragment that since 1983 you've claimed you found in the limo.   Are these "bullets" the same?   Is the new bullet in addition to the bullet fragments?   Does the whole bullet you now recall finding in the limo physically resemble CE399?
• Please explain your thinking in November 1963 for not reporting this found bullet in your written reports.   Was there explicity or implicit pressure to express or not express certain viewpoints?   What form did that pressure come in?   Are there additional unspoken revelations that you're aware of from your SS peers?
• When did you first tell another person about the whole bullet you now report having found in the limo?   What is the oldest written document or letter that references this 2023 found bullet?
• Please share your thoughts on the propriety of a SS agent not including a found bullet in your post-assassination report.   Was evidence chain of custody part of your SS training?   Do you have a sense of the historic importance of what you are now revealing?   

Personally, I'd like Vince to get "the interview"

[James DiEugenio]

A follower of K and K left me this quote from long ago which VInce P should recall.

It took me a while to find it again but I knew I had written the quote in the comments section.

 

Entitled "First Annual Midwest Symposium on JFK part 3 6/26 - 6/28/92 Chicago, Illinois " from Vince Palamara YouTube channel. 

 

"During the last days of the public hearings of the House Select Committee, Congressman, now Senator Dodd, gave the most important revelation. He stood up or sat up and asked Professor Blakely to answer him one question. And he said, Mr. Blakely, will you please explain to me about the bullet that was found in the President's limousine that cannot be ballistically matched to the Oswald weapon? Congressman Dodd never received an answer....to this day."

[Micah Mileto]

This is from Robert Groden's report to the HSCA:

 

The Washington Post of December 18, 1963, after checking the 
report with the FBI before publication, stated that a bullet was recov- 
ered from deep within the President’s shoulder. This was again con- 
firmed in the Post on May 29, 1966. 

The fact of the recovery of this bullet fully destroys the myth of the 
“single bullet,” and that evidence of an additional gunshot during the 
assassination was suppressed.

 

Does anybody have this Washington Post article from May 29, 1966?

[James DiEugenio]

Landis will be at Cyril Wecht's Conference in November.

Up Close and Personal.

 

[K K Lane]

Breaking Points gets into the weeds on thie Landis revelation.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUTXRRLSxIg

Key points:

• Saagar gives credit to Oliver Stone for turning the tide on JFKA.   Saagar specifically mentions JFK revisited (sorry, Jim, no hat tip to you in this segment)
• Jeff Morley's substack got a shout-out as well.
• I can't believe Saagar and Krystal were drilling down to a discussion of which gurney the bullet was found on.   And they actually covered Darrell Tomlinson's role!

[Leslie Sharp]

I'm dismayed that in their enthusiasm — and regardless of how significant a smoking bullet is to the investigation — David Talbot and Jefferson Morley seem to have failed (thus far) to publicly acknowledge the fundamental issues with Landis's personal story. 

I'm even more dismayed that NYT, The Guardian, The Independent, Vanity Fair have inexplicably leapt over basic precepts of investigative journalism to publish sensational headlines, "witness breaks his silence and raises new questions" which leads me to consider a fellow researcher's concerns (paraphrasing): is this a limited hangout?

 

• If SS agents weren't trained in the fundamentals of crime scene preservation, evidence gathering and reporting, weren't they at least vetted for common sense? 
• Why then would Landis remove evidence from a crime scene (limo) and relocate it to a stretcher instead of handing it off to his superior or at the very least local authorities?
• Why didn't he mark the bullet? 
• Why didn't he record his finding in a report?
• Did PTSD impede him from fulfilling his oath to support and defend democracy for decades?
• How could he avoid the WCR and Specter's "magic bullet" theory for decades? 
• Did he state as late as 2013 that he believed a lone gunman was responsible for Kennedy's assassination?
• Did the trauma overwhelm him for six decades?

In his own words published by alt-right The Gateway Pundit which headlines Robert Kennedy Jr's reaction, Landis goes unchallenged when he states:

"There was nobody there to secure the scene, and that was a big, big bother to me. All the agents that were there were focused on the president."

So, Landis was concerned that the scene hadn't been secured yet he himself lifted a bullet from the limo, took it inside the building, placed it on a stretcher, and never reported it or spoke of it publicly again until the 60th anniversary ... not the 45th, or 55th, or 57th, or 59th, but the 60th.

If leading spokespersons for "the community" fail to address the most basic questions, how long before conspiracy skeptics add this episode to the list?

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/09/jfk-assassination-witness-breaks-60-year-silence-blows/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=jfk-assassination-witness-breaks-60-year-silence-blows

Edited September 11, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Bill Brown]

On 9/9/2023 at 8:59 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

I posted a link to story, and you can use link to read story in Wayback Machine/Internet Archives.  I posted the story as well. 

Of course, whether you give credence to Landis' testimony depends on whether you are a CT'er or LN'er. 

1. Landis' explanation is that CE 399 is a projectile that made the shallow wound in JFK's back, and then fell out.

2. The WC version is that CE 399 is a projectile that passed through JFK's neck, did not tumble, then struck JBC cleanly, took out four inches of JBC's rib, exited JBC's chest tearing out of four-square-inch-hole (lots of bone exited), then smashed JBC's wrist, and then entered JBC's thigh, and then fell out onto a stretcher in Parkland. And after being struck by said projectile, JBC made a 180-degree turn in this seat to look for JFK. 

Maybe Landis' version stands up better....

 

Oh, and btw, CE 399 has marginal deformation after doing all that damage....

 

"1. Landis' explanation is that CE 399 is a projectile that made the shallow wound in JFK's back, and then fell out."

 

There is no chance that a bullet struck Kennedy in the back and penetrated only to such a shallow depth that it could later simply fall out of the entry wound.  Complete nonsense.  Whatever did occur, it wasn't this.

 

[K K Lane]

Posner is peddling his nonsense on NewsNation right now.   It's amazing how Posner can frame Landis' 1963 testimony as either absolute truth or nonsense depending on whether it fits Posner's narrative.

NewsNation looks like they were prepped to be pro-Posner.   Mockingbird v3?

FWIW Landis is scheduled to give an interview on NewsNation on Wednseday.   It would be nice if they could get some balanced background info by then.

[Mark Ulrik]

22 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

"1. Landis' explanation is that CE 399 is a projectile that made the shallow wound in JFK's back, and then fell out."

There is no chance that a bullet struck Kennedy in the back and penetrated only to such a shallow depth that it could later simply fall out of the entry wound.  Complete nonsense.  Whatever did occur, it wasn't this.

It's even worse than that. The bullet would also have had to work its way out through the shirt.