Billy Lovelady is NOT leaning over (much) in Altgens 6.

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Applying Andrej's model to both figures:

 

LOL, wow! The head on Andrej's Lovelady model is also turned to the left! Same amount as with the woman!

Thanks Chris! You bring good stuff to the party, lol.

But what about Lovelady's body in Andrej's model? Is it also turned to the left? And if so, by how much (compared to the head). We can get an idea by studying this:

 

 

The body isn't turned much to the left if at all, compared to the head. (Remember, we're talking relative to the line-of-sight of the camera.)

If we look at this one again:

 

 

It seems pretty clear that Andrej has his Lovelady's body tilted rather than turned (rotated). Look how much lower the left shoulder is compared to the right.

In summary, both Chris and Andrej create what we see in Altgens 6 Lovelady, but in different ways for the body:

Head Illusion

Chris:       Achieved by turning head to the left.
Andrej:     Same

Body Illusion

Chris:       Achieved by turning body to the left.
Andrej:     Achieved by tilting body clockwise.

 

The question is, whose simulation describes correctly how the real Lovelady was standing in the real Altgens 6, Chris's or Andrej's?

I'll need to put some thought into that.

 

[Richard Price]

Just a comment on Andrej's depiction:  The Lovelady figure has the coloration for the shirt extending over the raised and outstretched arm and body of Carl Jones and even cuts under his (CJ's) chin.  In my studies of this picture, I have found quality copies which show CJ's arm extends all the way up to the folded collar on "Lovelady's" left side and CJ's chin is almost touching his arm.  This coloration causes undue distortion and confusion of the figure's posture/position.  Andrej has done much to assist in understanding this photo, but this coloration of the shirt needs to be addressed.

[Chris Davidson]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

LOL, wow! The head on Andrej's Lovelady model is also turned to the left! Same amount as with the woman!

Thanks Chris! You bring good stuff to the party, lol.

But what about Lovelady's body in Andrej's model? Is it also turned to the left? And if so, by how much (compared to the head). We can get an idea by studying this:

 

 

The body isn't turned much to the left if at all, compared to the head. (Remember, we're talking relative to the line-of-sight of the camera.)

If we look at this one again:

 

 

It seems pretty clear that Andrej has his Lovelady's body tilted rather than turned (rotated). Look how much lower the left shoulder is compared to the right.

In summary, both Chris and Andrej create what we see in Altgens 6 Lovelady, but in different ways for the body:

Head Illusion

Chris:       Achieved by turning head to the left.
Andrej:     Same

Body Illusion

Chris:       Achieved by turning body to the left.
Andrej:     Achieved by tilting body clockwise.

 

The question is, whose simulation describes correctly how the real Lovelady was standing in the real Altgens 6, Chris's or Andrej's?

I'll need to put some thought into that.

 

Remember,

It's Hughes, Towner, Bell, Altgens then Wiegman.

[Chris Davidson]

Comparisons within the same photo.

Should Lovelady be head and shoulders above the rest?

 

 

[Chris Davidson]

Bookending body angles within the same photo:

[Chris Davidson]

On 10/17/2023 at 4:42 PM, Chris Davidson said:

Previously identified:

Two different people with the same colored red clothing in two different films, seconds apart.

One is supposed to be Lovelady, who might the other be?

Is that red or reddish/brown or whatever shade of effing red you want it to be?

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Chris Davidson said:

On 10/17/2023 at 5:42 PM, Chris Davidson said:

 

 

 

Chris,

Where is that red-shirted person standing? On the TSBD steps?

It seems not. If that is a red arm belonging to a red torso, with his elbow out so as to show white between his arm and torso, then it seems to me that this person cannot be on the steps at the Lovelady's location, because there was no white in the background there. In addition, for him to appear this large, it seems he must be on the south side of Elm Street.

 

 

 

[Alan Ford]

51 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 

Chris,

Where is that red-shirted person standing? On the TSBD steps?

It seems not. If that is a red arm belonging to a red torso, with his elbow out so as to show white between his arm and torso, then it seems to me that this person cannot be on the steps at the Lovelady's location, because there was no white in the background there. In addition, for him to appear this large, it seems he must be on the south side of Elm Street.

Much too high to be out on the street, Mr. Larsen.

The white to the right of the red area belongs to Mrs. Madie Reese.

[Sandy Larsen]

36 minutes ago, Alan Ford said:

Much too high to be out on the street, Mr. Larsen.

The white to the right of the red area belongs to Mrs. Madie Reese.

 

So you believe that the other red thing, a little to the (our) right and a little lower, is something else?

[Sandy Larsen]

 

This image of Chris Davidson's includes an e-mail from Sean Murphy to Chris. In it Sean says the following:

"I am stone cold certain, though, after Altgens went out on the wirephoto it was touched up to put this fact [that it was Lovelady and not Oswald] beyond doubt in people's minds. This involved changing a raised right hand [of Carl's Jones] into Lovelady's lowered left arm." (Bold added.)

So he agrees with what I've been saying. FWIW.

 

 

[Alan Ford]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

So you believe that the other red thing, a little to the (our) right and a little lower, is something else?

My apologies, Mr. Larsen, I misread what you wrote.

The white area you originally (and actually!) referred to is---------or appears to be---------Mr. Lovelady's tshirt:

For some time now, I've been troubled by its square/rectangular shape. Where's the V-shape we'd expect here?

Edited October 28, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Alan Ford]

Friends, here's how the Altgens photograph appeared when shown live on TV by Mr. Walter Cronkite the evening of 11/22 (you can see his finger top left):

Edited October 28, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Alan Ford said:

My apologies, Mr. Larsen, I misread what you wrote.

The white area you originally (and actually!) referred to is---------or appears to be---------Mr. Lovelady's tshirt:

For some time now, I've been troubled by its square/rectangular shape. Where's the V-shape we'd expect here?

 

Alan,

I agree, the white is Lovelady's tee shirt.

I no longer believe that we see two red objects in Chris's photo... i.e. Lovelady's torso and arm. I believe that a tree limb is making it look like two objects. Instead I believe that we see just his torso. That way the white tee shirt is properly centered on his red shirt. Apparently the right side (from our perspective) of his red shirt is pulled open wider, making the white tee shirt opening look more square.

 

[Chris Davidson]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 

This image of Chris Davidson's includes an e-mail from Sean Murphy to Chris. In it Sean says the following:

"I am stone cold certain, though, after Altgens went out on the wirephoto it was touched up to put this fact [that it was Lovelady and not Oswald] beyond doubt in people's minds. This involved changing a raised right hand [of Carl's Jones] into Lovelady's lowered left arm." (Bold added.)

So he agrees with what I've been saying. FWIW.

 

 

I believe Bell/Hughes along with Altgens shows that as the left arm of a human being:

[Sandy Larsen]

12 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

I believe Bell/Hughes along with Altgens shows that as the left arm of a human being:

 

I believe that Lovelady was standing square with the steps, which put his body at a large angle relative to camera direction. I believe that his head is close to the same angle.

This is why we can't see his left ear in Altgens 6 (though we do see someones' hair in its place), and why his left arm and shoulder are greatly reduced in width.

Which is the reason Lovelady's shoulder appears to be gone. The view of his arm is blocked by Carl Jones's arm and hand.