Dueling Delusions: LN vs CT

[Pat Speer]

I have been watching JFK-land for decades, and it's clear to me that the inability for researchers/buffs to come to a consensus has more to do with psychology than the facts of the assassination. 

Those clasping onto the notion it was Oswald and Oswald alone tend to put public servants on a pedestal. They refuse to believe the DPD, FBI, and WC would lie for political reasons. It just doesn't compute. This disconnect is demonstrated, moreover, by a certain LN's recent claim he couldn't think like a CT because he did't want to be a Johnny Cochran. Well, this was ironic as heck considering that Joseph Ball, the man hand-picked by Earl Warren to build the case against Oswald, was THE Johnny Cochran of his day, that is, a defense attorney known for sneaky stunts designed to fool a jury. 

Now contrast this willful naïveté re the morality of public servants with the bizarre belief among all too many CTs that these same servants are incredibly sneaky, and smart, and willing and able to fake evidence--even evidence the public was never supposed to see. This is equally delusional, IMO.

IMO, public servants (the DPD, the FBI, the staff and members of the Warren Commission) are like other people...marginally competent, blinded by bias, and mostly lazy. 

Any analysis of the facts holding that these people were super-moral or super-sneaky and clever is flawed, IMO.

Feel free to disagree. 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Jean Ceulemans]

I´d say some public servants, and some other people.  Good and bad can be encountered every where, as well in private companies as anywhere else.   I´ve worked for the government for years and met a lot of hard working people that believed in what they were doing, and they achieved great results (but no bonus, just a couple of medals).  But I can say the same about the private companies  I´ve worked for, There's good-honest-hard-working-people, and you have those that will cheat like there is no tomorrow. And the majority is somewhere in between indeed.   

Edited November 11, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Miles Massicotte]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

IMO, public servants (the DPD, the FBI, the staff and members of the Warren Commission) are like other people...marginally competent, blinded by bias, and mostly lazy. 

I agree, and would add one important thing: public servants, like everyone else, do what serves their best interest. If being honest and responsible means keeping their job, doing a good job, that is what they will do. If they feel that lying and deceiving are necessary, to please a superior for example, or to save their own ass, then that is what they will do. It is quite simple: most people are selfish and act selfishly. Altruism is a wonderful thing, but it is not natural and it is certainly not common. But neither is wanton, unabashed evil. So I agree that LN'ers tend to see too much of the former in people and CT'ers too much of the latter,  whether they realize it or not.

I am also reminded of a quote by that philosopher of philosophers, George Carlin, who said "you don't need a formal conspiracy when interests converge". In other words, you can have a group of people acting with perfectly normal, nasty human motivations who are participants in a conspiracy simply by belong to a group of people with like-minded goals. I think that is how many things in life get accomplished that are greater than the sum of the parts, of the people who contribute to making them happen, as it were. And I think a lot of the JFK assassination went like that.

That said, I do believe that some explicit conspiratorial planning was involved for some elements of the assassination plot, because it is impossible to explain certain things otherwise. 

[Benjamin Cole]

I posted this elsewhere, but worth a post here too: 

I hate to say it, but many JFKA CT'ers (and LN'ers) want to believe certain narratives and thus are susceptible to expedient "facts," "documents" or witnesses.

A CT'er might have excruciatingly exact and high standards for proof regarding the involvement of LHO in the JFKA, then the bar sinks into deep into the soft dirt for the indictment of favored suspects. Vice-versa with LN'ers. 

Tosh Plumlee and Richard Case Nagell are dubious witnesses. Other "documents" do not hold up to even cursory examination. 

As much as I admire the work of Douglass, he nearly rhapsodizes and becomes evangelical about certain eyewitnesses, including one who said a large military transport landed in a dry river wash near downtown Dallas and was carrying an LHO double. If one woman saw Jack Ruby outside the TSBD during the TSBD, Douglass glorifies that witness statement. 

Relative amateurs entering the JFKA arena might be impressed by certain "facts," or might have political agendas or pecuniary interests that color their presentations. 

All to say, I doubt Rob Reiner and Soledad will come up with much, but I hope for the best. 

When it comes to the JFKA, I prefer researchers who are so jaded they have given up on politics and ideologies, and just want to know  what happened. 

But a real documentary on the JFKA takes long and sustained work, working hand in hand with a DiEugenio, Newman, Tink Thompson, Morley,  Larry Hancock, and being very circumspect about evidence and conclusions. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Paul Cummings]

Lazy. I think of Deep Purple and not the Warren Commission when it comes to "lazy."

Edited November 11, 2023 by Paul Cummings

[Michaleen Kilroy]

On 11/9/2023 at 5:44 PM, Pat Speer said:

Now contrast this willful naïveté re the morality of public servants with the bizarre belief among all too many CTs that these same servants are incredibly sneaky, and smart, and willing and able to fake evidence--even evidence the public was never supposed to see. This is equally delusional, IMO.

True with those involved in the cover-up. But those at the heart of the conspiracy knew they had everything to lose if they messed up. And they had to be incredibly sneaky and smart, or else.

To quote Dylan:

It happened so quickly, so quick, by surprise
Right there in front of everyone's eyes
Greatest magic trick ever under the sun
Perfectly executed, skillfully done

 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Michaleen Kilroy

[Alan Ford]

5 hours ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

True with those involved in the cover-up. But those at the heart of the conspiracy knew they had everything to lose if they messed up. And they had to be incredibly sneaky and smart, or else.

Isn't that true of those involved in the cover-up too? Once the 'Communist conspiracy' angle was declared off limits (and that happened very quickly indeed), anything other than a finding of Mr. Oswald's sole guilt was a priori verboten. Whichever institution one worked for, helping to protect and vindicate that absurd story required a great deal of sneakiness and smarts. Whether you personally liked it or not.

[Alan Ford]

In my experience..............

The Warren Gullible tends to be one of two things: an NPC simpleton (sometimes highly educated), or a knowing propagandist preying on the gullibility of NPC simpletons.

The CT comes in many stripes. Such as............

CT A, when confronted with a new idea : 'Damn, I never thought of that. How interesting..................' (Just wants to find out what the hell happened 11/22/63.)

CT B, ditto : 'Damn, I never thought of that. I'm gonna get this sunnuvva...............' (Ego > Truth-seeking impulse.)

CT C : No critical filter when it comes to CT claims (a rather comical mirror-image of the Warren Gullible simpleton). Reacts very poorly to evidence-based rebuttal.

[Jean Ceulemans]

On 11/10/2023 at 2:44 AM, Pat Speer said:

Any analysis of the facts holding that these people were super-moral or super-sneaky and clever is flawed, IMO.

https://fam.state.gov/fam/03fam/03fam4540.html

If they were super-humans, a list of offenses wouldn't be needed, simple.  I assumed this was common knowledge, apparently it isn't.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[David Von Pein]

9 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

If they were super-humans, a list of offenses wouldn't be needed, simple. 

Huh? Who in this discussion ever mentioned anybody being "super human"???

I don't even know what you mean by that. Sounds like something out of a sci-fi movie.

Please elaborate.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Jean Ceulemans]

Pat called them super-moral I believe. But you are correct, they don't exist! 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Michael Griffith]

On 11/9/2023 at 8:44 PM, Pat Speer said:

I have been watching JFK-land for decades, and it's clear to me that the inability for researchers/buffs to come to a consensus has more to do with psychology than the facts of the assassination. 

Those clasping onto the notion it was Oswald and Oswald alone tend to put public servants on a pedestal. They refuse to believe the DPD, FBI, and WC would lie for political reasons. It just doesn't compute. This disconnect is demonstrated, moreover, by a certain LN's recent claim he couldn't think like a CT because he did't want to be a Johnny Cochran. Well, this was ironic as heck considering that Joseph Ball, the man hand-picked by Earl Warren to build the case against Oswald, was THE Johnny Cochran of his day, that is, a defense attorney known for sneaky stunts designed to fool a jury. 

Now contrast this willful naïveté re the morality of public servants with the bizarre belief among all too many CTs that these same servants are incredibly sneaky, and smart, and willing and able to fake evidence--even evidence the public was never supposed to see. This is equally delusional, IMO.

IMO, public servants (the DPD, the FBI, the staff and members of the Warren Commission) are like other people...marginally competent, blinded by bias, and mostly lazy. 

Any analysis of the facts holding that these people were super-moral or super-sneaky and clever is flawed, IMO.

Feel free to disagree. 

But even you say that some of the evidence was faked, i.e., the paper bag, the prints on the paper bag, the latent palmprint, and the fibers found on the rifle--you say that all these items were faked.

However, you offer bafflingly vacuous, invalid reasons for not accepting the hard scientific evidence of the OD measurements done on the autopsy skull x-rays, especially the odd claim that OD measurements are only valid for determining bone density.

No conspiracy theorist of whom I am aware argues that the "public servants" were "incredibly sneaky and smart" when it came to faking evidence. On the contrary, many of us have pointed out (1) that in several cases the faking of evidence was not done with great skill, and (2) that in other cases those doing the faking did not realize that their forgery/alteration would prove to be problematic for the lone-gunman theory.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Jean Ceulemans]

14 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

No conspiracy theorist of whom I am aware argues that the "public servants" were "incredibly sneaky and smart" when it came to faking evidence. 

IMO, neither does Pat in this topic.  So points (1) and (2) are of no use here,  unless I'm - again - reading things the wrong way

[Michael Griffith]

22 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

IMO, neither does Pat in this topic.  So points (1) and (2) are of no use here,  unless I'm - again - reading things the wrong way

That is exactly Pat's position. He and I have discussed the issue of fake evidence at great length. He dismisses the incredibly important and historic OD evidence, believes that all the autopsy photos are pristine, etc., etc.

[Joe Bauer]

One main thing in my now 72 year long life I have learned that is so important to keep in mind on a daily basis is knowing and believing that the huge majority of people really want to do the right thing in a multi-religion tenant teaching way.

And they really do live this way as best they can.

It is so easy to become overly cynical to a degree you start thinking the worst of others way too often and to a point of your own mental health detriment.

And sadly, we are now inundated daily with the worst news of the bad doings of others so much more than ever before imo.

The balance of controlling exposure to such is a crisis level challenge. Especially now-a-days and for our younger generations.

The JFKA and RFK and MLK assassinations are inherently incredibly cynical events.

It's always been a challenge for me to keep a balance in studying them and keeping my faith in our own society's good morality intentions and courage to want to know the truth surrounding those abominable crimes.

There has always been a thousand points of fact in the JFKA event history that are debatably beyond mere speculation that cause one to in the least, rationally consider and even strongly suspect what Grassy Knoll smoke observing salt of the Earth Dallas railroad man Richard C. Dodd proclaimed ...

Well, when a man can get shot handcuffed to a couple of policemens and get away with it, why, I figure somethin' else is a goin' on besides what should be."

The Witnesses: Richard C. Dodd

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Joe Bauer