Re Paul Landis? 11/22/63 FBI Memo Confirms?

[David Von Pein]

Here are more photos of the "Front-Seat Limo Fragments" (CE567 and CE569).....

https://www.maryferrell.org/photos.html?set=NARA-FRAGMENTS

Also, let me add this observation.....

The theory that CE567 and CE569 are fake/planted bullet fragments almost certainly MUST be a theory that a lot of conspiracy theorists endorse, whether they know it or not. Because if those two bullet fragments are legitimate pieces of evidence in this case, it positively means that OSWALD'S RIFLE was being fired at President Kennedy in Dealey Plaza.

And those two bullet fragments, in conjunction with Oswald's own actions and all of the other many things of a physical nature, go a long way toward incriminating the owner of the rifle that was conclusively linked to those two front-seat bullet fragments. And that owner's name was Lee Harvey Oswald.

When arguing with conspiracy theorists over the years, I've noticed that those two limo bullet fragments don't very often come up in conversation. And I think there's a very good reason why CTers like to distance themselves from those two very important (and Oswald-incriminating) pieces of bullet evidence.

The CTers can't possibly even begin to prove that those fragments weren't really found in the front seat of JFK's car. And the CTers can't begin to support their nutty idea that ALL of the physical evidence against Oswald in the JFK and Tippit murders is fake, planted, or phony.

So the conspiracists normally just ignore the two limo fragments from LHO's gun. I guess maybe they think those fragments will just go away if they don't talk about them very much.

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Here are more photos of the "Front-Seat Limo Fragments" (CE567 and CE569).....

https://www.maryferrell.org/photos.html?set=NARA-FRAGMENTS

Also, let me add this observation.....

The theory that CE567 and CE569 are fake/planted bullet fragments almost certainly MUST be a theory that a lot of conspiracy theorists endorse, whether they know it or not. Because if those two bullet fragments are legitimate pieces of evidence in this case, it positively means that OSWALD'S RIFLE was being fired at President Kennedy in Dealey Plaza.

And those two bullet fragments, in conjunction with Oswald's own actions and all of the other many things of a physical nature, go a long way toward incriminating the owner of the rifle that was conclusively linked to those two front-seat bullet fragments. And that owner's name was Lee Harvey Oswald.

When arguing with conspiracy theorists over the years, I've noticed that those two limo bullet fragments don't very often come up in conversation. And I think there's a very good reason why CTers like to distance themselves from those two very important (and Oswald-incriminating) pieces of bullet evidence.

The CTers can't possibly even begin to prove that those fragments weren't really found in the front seat of JFK's car. And the CTers can't begin to support their nutty idea that ALL of the physical evidence against Oswald in the JFK and Tippit murders is fake, planted, or phony.

So the conspiracists normally just ignore the two limo fragments from LHO's gun. I guess maybe they think those fragments will just go away if they don't talk about them very much.

 

DVP--

I am happy to talk about the fragments. I accept two or more fragments were found in the limo, and likely not planted.

The fragments in question appear to be copper-jacketed.

But...has that any bearing on the Paul Landis' finding of a whole copper-jacketed slug in the limo, or the same-day 11/22 memo from the FBI stating that a Secret Service agent found a "bullet' in the limo? 

The fragments might be considered additional evidence someone was firing at JFK using copper-jacketed bullets, of exactly the type Paul Landis said he found that day. 

The fragments are so small, it seems likely they would be referred to as "fragments" and not a "bullet." The word "bullet" singular, btw. 

I would not call two small fragments a "bullet." 

Of course, an 11/22 FBI memo stating that a Secret Service agent found a "bullet' in the limo does not present evidence beyond reasonable doubt, buttressing the Landis report. 

The 11/22 FBI memo appears to be what the FBI earnestly believed at the time, but before there was any pressure to make evidence fit a an official narrative. 

I would say the FBI memo adds to the preponderance of evidence a whole slug was found in the limo, which eventually became CE 399. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Andrew Iler]

What is the RIF # for that memo Ben? I could not find it on a quick search of the records on NARA’s website. 

[Benjamin Cole]

39 minutes ago, Andrew Iler said:

What is the RIF # for that memo Ben? I could not find it on a quick search of the records on NARA’s website. 

I don't know.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62266#relPageId=143&search=Rifle

The above should take you to the memo itself. 

There is this on the memo: "FBI 62-109060 JFK HQ File, Section 16"

I hope this helps....

 

 

 

 

[Mart Hall]

12 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The early Shanklin and Belmont memos contain a lot of second-hand stuff that are essentially bad gossip. 

Have to agree.

I recently read an early memo from Belmont to Tolson that contained parts of the same information as the memo Ben has produced, which would make sense if the information was being passed up the line, but iirc it also said:

It was unconfirmed/alleged that LBJ had suffered a heart attack. 

DP had arrested a man for the murder of the president and he was en route to the DPD.

A policeman had been shot with a rifle at 10th and a suspect had been cornered.

Referred to shots and checking the 5th floor and the stairs at the TSBD. 

That a Winchester rifle had been discovered at the TSBD. 

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Mart Hall said:

Have to agree.

I recently read an early memo from Belmont to Tolson that contained parts of the same information as the memo Ben has produced, which would make sense if the information was being passed up the line, but iirc it also said:

It was unconfirmed/alleged that LBJ had suffered a heart attack. 

DP had arrested a man for the murder of the president and he was en route to the DPD.

A policeman had been shot with a rifle at 10th and a suspect had been cornered.

Referred to shots and checking the 5th floor and the stairs at the TSBD. 

That a Winchester rifle had been discovered at the TSBD. 

True. But take sentences and information in context.

And some of the above statements are true. It was unconfirmed LBJ had a heart attack, and there were arrests made after the JFKA, of various men on the street or even in the Dal-Tex building. 

I am not denying that inaccurate information is in some FBI memos, even pre-JFKA. 

I am saying we have a same day (11/22) FBI memo, before an official narrative was settled upon, that refers to a Secret Service agent finding a "bullet" (not fragments) in the Presidential limo, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA. 

Then we have the Landis book, and earlier statements by Clint Hill. 

Also, the nurse at Parkland, and then the mysterious appearance of CE399, which exactly matches all of these statements--a whole slug, not a fragment.

The shallow back wound on JFK. 

If I had to bet, I would bet on the Landis version, rather than the magic bullet theory. 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

Add on to anybody:

Was there not also a Secret Service agent in the vicinity when Tomlinson found the slug in Parkland?

I think Vince P has written about this.

 

[Tony Krome]

4 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Add on

[Larry Hancock]

Well it certainly would be interesting if fragments and a virtually intact bullet were found in the rear seat,  that bullet was put on a stretcher and taken into custody by the SS (removing it from local police custody which had legal responsibility for the investigation) and somehow that bullet then - like other material in reputedly in SS custody at different points -  went missing while in Chief Rowley's custody and a Carcano bullet bullet emerged....(might even explain the FBI's furious search to turn up Carcano ammo that weekend).    Its wildly speculative (but consistent with the description given of the bullet by those that saw it at the hospital) but it does make me wonder if Landis recalls the shape of the bullet he picked up - it certainly would be interesting if he had noted if it were "pointed" which might have been quite evident if it were generally undamaged.

 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

36 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Well it certainly would be interesting if fragments and a virtually intact bullet were found in the rear seat,  that bullet was put on a stretcher and taken into custody by the SS (removing it from local police custody which had legal responsibility for the investigation) and somehow that bullet then - like other material in reputedly in SS custody at different points -  went missing while in Chief Rowley's custody and a Carcano bullet bullet emerged....(might even explain the FBI's furious search to turn up Carcano ammo that weekend).    Its wildly speculative (but consistent with the description given of the bullet by those that saw it at the hospital) but it does make me wonder if Landis recalls the shape of the bullet he picked up - it certainly would be interesting if he had noted if it were "pointed" which might have been quite evident if it were generally undamaged.

 

 

 

LH--

I asked about this (pointy-head vs. dome-shaped), and Jeff Morley and Jim Robenalt say that Landis recalls the limo-slug looking like CE 399--a dome-shaped-head slug. 

Of course, this conflicts with Tomlinson, and O.P. Wright of Parkland, who remember a pointy-head slug being found in the hallway in Parkland. 

My best guess is that the slug Tomlinson found is not connected to the JFKA (as Tink Thompson originally suspected). And in fact, the pointy-head slug was found several floors away from the operating room. 

My deduction is, at some point, the Secret Service or FBI---since the pointy-head slug did not fit the official narrative---simply disposed of that slug. 

The Landis slug, which was a WCC 6.5 slug (Mannlicher Carcano slug), then became CE 399. So the correct slug was introduced as evidence.

The problem? The CE399 slug did not pass through Connally's body, and likely only made a shallow back wound in JFK, and then popped out. That is how Landis found it. (An undercharged round).

As pointed out by many, chain-of-evidence and evidence-tampering problems are present in the JFKA. 

My deduction is one or two Secret Service agents knew or saw Landis with CE399, and knew what happened, but kept quiet, although they off-the-record told the FBI what happened (hence the 11/22 memo). Also, the SS agents kept quiet as it looked like the Secret Service was deliberately planting evidence, to have put CE399 on the President's operating table, when in fact it was just Landis being Landis. 

Well, that's my story and I am sticking with it. For today. 

[James DiEugenio]

Two nurses recalled seeing a bullet on the ER room: Hall and Tuohy.

So the info in the memo does not have to come from Landis himself.

[Larry Hancock]

Thanks Ben, I was just thinking it might be "neater", interesting that he now feels that what he picked up did indeed look to be a match for CE399....and given his finding it on the back seat he certainly should have been suspicious of the official story all this time.  If its CE 399 the entire official shooting sequence is bogus and he should have realized that should he not?

[Nick Bartetzko]

On 12/5/2023 at 5:19 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

GD-

Sure, it may be. 

My view on the JFKA is since little is entirely beyond reasonable doubt (and even that is a matter of individual preference), one must look for the "preponderance of evidence." 

This 11/22 FBI memo does not say "fragments," it says "the bullet." 

Landis claims he found a whole bullet slug. 

Clint Hill told a neighbor a complete "bullet" was found in the limo. 

CE 399 is an entire, nearly pristine WCC 6.5 slug. Such a slug is extremely unlikely, if it had truly ripped out five inches of Gov. Connally's rib and then smashed his wrist. 

No, I cannot prove Landis found a whole slug, CE 399 in the limo. One might entertain reasonable doubts that he did. 

If I had to bet, it would be that a Secret Service agent indeed found a whole slug in the limo on 11/22. 

Police brotherhoods are very strong. No one ever "finks" on a fellow officer, rightly or wrongly. 

If a Secret Service agent made a mistake in the handling of CE 399, no one is going to squeal on him. 

 

That is an excellent find. You mention Clint Hill telling a neighbor, but might you be confusing that with SS Agent Sam Kinney who confided the same information to his neighbor? 

[Benjamin Cole]

29 minutes ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

That is an excellent find. You mention Clint Hill telling a neighbor, but might you be confusing that with SS Agent Sam Kinney who confided the same information to his neighbor? 

NB--

Thanks for the clarification. I defer to you or Vince P. My memory is Hill also hinted to something to that effect (a slug found in the limo) but then has wavered. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Thanks Ben, I was just thinking it might be "neater", interesting that he now feels that what he picked up did indeed look to be a match for CE399....and given his finding it on the back seat he certainly should have been suspicious of the official story all this time.  If its CE 399 the entire official shooting sequence is bogus and he should have realized that should he not?

LH-

I defer to Jim Robenalt in this regard. 

Robenalt, by no means a lifer CT'er, says he finds Landis is credible, and that post-JFKA, Landis just put the matter out of his mind, and indeedsoon Landis left the SS.  

There is no denying Landis obscured the truth to the HSCA about the JFKA, if his latest version is the truth. 

Well, Landis would not be the first person to screw something up, and then try to hide it. Esepcially if what he screwed up became part of the official record. 

IMHO: I find the Landis story fits with the shallow JFK back wound, and with what two nurses saw, and now with the FBI 11/22 memo. 

The Landis story also fits with earwitness testimony the first shot was of different pitch and volume from the succeeding audible shots, and possibly with the "dented" cartridge retrieved from the sniper's nest. The dent being a sign of re-use and hand-loading, and under-charging.  

As I always say, getting to beyond reasonable doubt is pretty difficult in the JFKA.

I believe beyond reasonable doubt that a lone gunman, armed with a single-shot bolt action rifle, could not shoot JFK ,and then JBC, and then JFK again, the last two shots "almost on top of each other." 

Is the latest Landis version true? I would give it a bare "preponderance of evidence" truth.