Re Paul Landis? 11/22/63 FBI Memo Confirms?

[Ron Bulman]

Well, this is all downright mind blowing.  CE399 has gone from the impossible magic pristine fairy tale bullet creating seven wounds to an undercharged Carcano bullet that maybe fell out of JFK's back onto his gurney while chest compressions were being performed?  We should forget the pointy nosed bullet found on a gurney, on the same floor, by the elevator, of a kid needing stitches for stepping on a broken coke bottle in his driveway.  The one ID'd  by the person who found it and the hospital security officer he gave it to, that then could not ID CE399 as the bullet they saw?  Tell me when I'm wrong people, this is from memory.  

But no.  The bullet fell out in the car, wedged into the back seat, found by Landis.  Who freaked out over what to do with it and managed to dump it on JFK's gurney.

Ben, not that I don't trust your word but in the interest of documentation, given your interest in that on other subjects in the last several months, I guess these were e-mail's you can reproduce?

"I asked about this (pointy-head vs. dome-shaped), and Jeff Morley and Jim Robenalt say that Landis recalls the limo-slug looking like CE 399--a dome-shaped-head slug." 

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Well, this is all downright mind blowing.  CE399 has gone from the impossible magic pristine fairy tale bullet creating seven wounds to an undercharged Carcano bullet that maybe fell out of JFK's back onto his gurney while chest compressions were being performed?  We should forget the pointy nosed bullet found on a gurney, on the same floor, by the elevator, of a kid needing stitches for stepping on a broken coke bottle in his driveway.  The one ID'd  by the person who found it and the hospital security officer he gave it to, that then could not ID CE399 as the bullet they saw?  Tell me when I'm wrong people, this is from memory.  

But no.  The bullet fell out in the car, wedged into the back seat, found by Landis.  Who freaked out over what to do with it and managed to dump it on JFK's gurney.

Ben, not that I don't trust your word but in the interest of documentation, given your interest in that on other subjects in the last several months, I guess these were e-mail's you can reproduce?

"I asked about this (pointy-head vs. dome-shaped), and Jeff Morley and Jim Robenalt say that Landis recalls the limo-slug looking like CE 399--a dome-shaped-head slug." 

RB--

I think that issue was fleshed out right here in EF-JFKA, but I can't remember when or under what title.

Also, there is video from Jeff Morley, in which he talks to Robenalt and Larry Schnapf. 

That Landis says he found a slug that looks like CE 399 is not disputed. That is what Landis says. 

Whether you want to believe Landis...that is up to you. 

[Marcus Fuller]

Quick question as I'll be damned if I can find the official details. But wasn't there traces of copper on JFK's back wound but not on his throat wound? 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Marcus Fuller said:

Quick question as I'll be damned if I can find the official details. But wasn't there traces of copper on JFK's back wound but not on his throat wound? 

I believe there was a spectrography test that showed there was copper on the back of JFK's jacket, (which suggested a bullet entered there), but no such test was performed on the wounds themselves.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Marcus Fuller said:

Quick question as I'll be damned if I can find the official details. But wasn't there traces of copper on JFK's back wound but not on his throat wound? 

Yes, the FBI found copper traces on the bullet hole in JFK's jacket.

If the tests were accurate, that indicates JFK was struck with a copper-jacketed bullet, of the type Landis said he found. 

We then reach a juncture:

1. You can assume the bullet passed through JFK. 

2. The bullet did not, but must have popped out. 

That is because the bullet was not in JFK's body. There were x-rays and extensive searches done at Bethesda. 

The amateur autopsists at Bethesda did try to probe the wound, and found it very shallow. One Inch or two. 

However, it may be certain muscles closed up over the bullet path, and the autopsists were not skilled at manipulating the probe. 

As of now, I lean to argument that the bullet popped out, and was found by Landis. 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Alan Ford]

32 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 As of now, I lean to argument that the bullet popped out, and was found by Landis. 

Yep, looking that way alright

[Benjamin Cole]

49 minutes ago, Alan Ford said:

Yep, looking that way alright

Thanks for your comment. 

I don't know how to further pursue this.

Landis was a surprise, and my happening upon the FBI memo also. 

The truth is elusive, and witnesses dead, and some evidence faulty. 

And the JFK Records still under President Biden's snuff job. 

You have any suggestions of what to do next? 

[Ron Bulman]

23 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Well, this is all downright mind blowing.  CE399 has gone from the impossible magic pristine fairy tale bullet creating seven wounds to an undercharged Carcano bullet that maybe fell out of JFK's back onto his gurney while chest compressions were being performed?  We should forget the pointy nosed bullet found on a gurney, on the same floor, by the elevator, of a kid needing stitches for stepping on a broken coke bottle in his driveway.  The one ID'd  by the person who found it and the hospital security officer he gave it to, that then could not ID CE399 as the bullet they saw?  Tell me when I'm wrong people, this is from memory.  

But no.  The bullet fell out in the car, wedged into the back seat, found by Landis.  Who freaked out over what to do with it and managed to dump it on JFK's gurney.

Ben, not that I don't trust your word but in the interest of documentation, given your interest in that on other subjects in the last several months, I guess these were e-mail's you can reproduce?

"I asked about this (pointy-head vs. dome-shaped), and Jeff Morley and Jim Robenalt say that Landis recalls the limo-slug looking like CE 399--a dome-shaped-head slug." 

Correction.  I left out the assertion by someone that maybe Jack Ruby left the bullet on the kid's stretcher.  As he was there per Scripps reporter Seth Kantor, who knew him as a former Dallas Morning News reporter.

[Mart Hall]

On 12/7/2023 at 12:17 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

True. But take sentences and information in context.

And some of the above statements are true. It was unconfirmed LBJ had a heart attack, and there were arrests made after the JFKA, of various men on the street or even in the Dal-Tex building. 

I am not denying that inaccurate information is in some FBI memos, even pre-JFKA. 

I am saying we have a same day (11/22) FBI memo, before an official narrative was settled upon, that refers to a Secret Service agent finding a "bullet" (not fragments) in the Presidential limo, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA. 

Then we have the Landis book, and earlier statements by Clint Hill. 

Also, the nurse at Parkland, and then the mysterious appearance of CE399, which exactly matches all of these statements--a whole slug, not a fragment.

The shallow back wound on JFK. 

If I had to bet, I would bet on the Landis version, rather than the magic bullet theory. 

 

 

I agree with you. 

The Landis version makes much more sense than the MBT. I would also bet that as the day progressed pressure was applied to shut Landis and any other SS agent involved up, which would be consistent with how other witnesses were treated that day.  

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Mart Hall
Typo

[Alan Ford]

On 12/7/2023 at 12:17 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

and there were arrests made after the JFKA, of various men on the street or even in the Dal-Tex building. 

[Alan Ford]

On 12/8/2023 at 2:40 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

Thanks for your comment. 

I don't know how to further pursue this.

Landis was a surprise, and my happening upon the FBI memo also. 

The truth is elusive, and witnesses dead, and some evidence faulty. 

And the JFK Records still under President Biden's snuff job. 

You have any suggestions of what to do next? 

Even if Mr. Landis were to take and pass a polygraph test, it would not convince those who wish not to be convinced. Warren Gullibles are obviously a lost cause, but there are (too) many CTs whose ability to look a gift horse in the mouth is prodigious............

I like your 'preponderance of evidence' approach. As Mr. Hall has pointed out, this is a far more compelling scenario than the MBT. That it emanates not from a 'CT' but from one of the actual SS guys (who has brought great professional opprobrium down on himself by telling his story) is greatly in its favor, as is the fact that Mr. Clint Hill privately warned Mr. Landis off this in (IIRC) 2013 on the basis that it would have "Many ramifications"-----------very different to 'It can't be true'.

As you know, I would also hammer home the fact that Zapruder lends startling support for what at first blush sounded like a ridiculous claimed location of the bullet when found--------------

Keep up the excellent work, sir!

[Benjamin Cole]

31 minutes ago, Alan Ford said:

Well, that is a curious memo. 

Hard to tell what is really going on, but does the arrest refer to someone in the TSBD, or the Dal-Tex building? 

 

[Alan Ford]

17 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Well, that is a curious memo. 

Hard to tell what is really going on, but does the arrest refer to someone in the TSBD, or the Dal-Tex building? 

 

Some folks have dismissed this as a garbled reference to the Florer arrest, but the context and the reference to Sgt. Hill make it clear that it happened in the TSBD

[Andrew Iler]

Doug Horne in his marathon FFF video mentions the Belmont memos at several points. He also has a pretty interesting take on the concept of a shallow back wound and undercharged round, as well as the bullet found on the stretcher. 
 

The key parts start at 3:48:44 and run to around 4:20:20  

Horne also mentions a different Belmont memo to Tolson earlier in the video. 

[Mart Hall]

23 minutes ago, Andrew Iler said:

Doug Horne in his marathon FFF video mentions the Belmont memos at several points. He also has a pretty interesting take on the concept of a shallow back wound and undercharged round, as well as the bullet found on the stretcher. 
 

The key parts start at 3:48:44 and run to around 4:20:20  

Horne also mentions a different Belmont memo to Tolson earlier in the video. 

Thanks for posting this, it will take me sometime to go through it and I’m keen to pick up on the Belmont memo you refer to.

I want to say a big thank you for your article on K&K which succinctly explains the JFK Act and the implications of the executive memorandum that effectively bypasses law. I had gone through the act over the years but your article gave me a lot of confidence that I had understood it correctly! Many thanks.

I look forward to seeing more posts from you Andrew.