The exoneration of Lyndon Johnson?

[Pat Speer]

FWIW, the final "chapter" on my website is an examination of LBJ's behavior after the shooting. I am fairly certain I get into more detail than anyone else. In any event, it becomes clear when you study what was said in the months and years after the shooting that LBJ behaved badly both before and after the flight from Dallas. He essentially lied his ass off to hide 1) that he decided to fly back on Kennedy's plane for no good reason beyond ego, 2) that he took over the Kennedys' bedroom as well, and 3) that he, not Bobby, decided he should be sworn in in Texas. His lies about these and other matters fueled a feud with Bobby that didn't really end till Bobby was murdered, just after it became clear Bobby was likely to replace him on the throne. Coincidence? Well, that's the question, ain't it? 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Roger Odisio]

19 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

RO--

You have written a thoughtful essay. 

Recently, I have been thinking about "beyond reasonable doubt" and "the preponderance of evidence." 

Did Landis find a slug in the limo? I now say there was a "preponderance of evidence" that he did (I hope lawyers will excuse me. I think that is a term from the civil court system). 

Was LBJ part of the JFKA plot, or at least clued in?

You have provided a lot of motives. I could go further, and say, "unless LBJ becomes President, he becomes defrocked by the LIFE magazine expose and other investigations into his financial affairs." It was do or die, for LBJ. 

Let us not forget that people in LBJ's orbit were murdered before, such as Henry Marshall. That case sure appears to have LBJ's fingerprints on it. 

JFKA researcher Newman contends LBJ was getting real briefings on the Vietnam War, that JFK was not getting. LBJ was being prepped to take over. 

Still, what evidence have you provided that LBJ was in on the JFKA, or even had concrete advance knowledge?

We have no texts, recorded phone calls, memos, etc. No credible, or even possibly credible person, has come forward and said, "Yeah, I worked with LBJ on the JFKA." No one remembers conversations with LBJ, in which the pending JFKA was discussed. 

In Larry Hancock's SWHT, there were Cuban exiles dropping hints about the pending JFKA, but none said "we are working with LBJ."

Post-JFKA, the CIA scared LBJ with WWIII talk, due to the LHO-Kostikov connection. I think the CIA arranged for the meeting, that happened curiously on a Saturday, with the Russian embassy was closed.  Then they could smear LHO, or freeze a real investigation. 

Nearly the entire US government wanted the "LHO was a leftie, loner, loser" narrative. On Nov. 23, the State Dept was issuing releases there was no foreign involvement in the JFKA. Yes, on Nov. 23. 

We have the same problem with Allen Dulles, in determining guilt. And any other high-ranking figure you care to mention. 

If I was on a jury, and I had to vote to send LBJ to the gas chamber for the murder of JFK, I could not.

I have reasonable doubts he was involved. 

 

 

 

BC: Was LBJ part of the JFKA plot, or at least clued in?

 

You have provided a lot of motives. I could go further, and say, "unless LBJ becomes President, he becomes defrocked by the LIFE magazine expose and other investigations into his financial affairs." It was do or die, for LBJ. 

 

RO:  I didn't base anything on motives, of which there were many. This one was one for sure.  That's a different  way to pursue the matter.

 

BC:  Still, what evidence have you provided that LBJ was in on the JFKA, or even had concrete advance knowledge?

 

We have no texts, recorded phone calls, memos, etc. No credible, or even possibly credible person, has come forward and said, "Yeah, I worked with LBJ on the JFKA." No one remembers conversations with LBJ, in which the pending JFKA was discussed. 

 

In Larry Hancock's SWHT, there were Cuban exiles dropping hints about the pending JFKA, but none said "we are working with LBJ."

 

RO:   None of my note is based on this kind of evidence.  You're not going to find any of that today, and if you did I would suspect it was faked.  That's why you have to piece together things you do know and make deductions. One of the things you do know (I hope) is that Johnson ran the cover up and the plan for the murder and coverup was of one piece that had to be worked out before the murder. That's a good start.

 

Lyndon Johnson became president the moment JFK was pronounced dead at 1:00 PM.  The swearing in ceremony was just window dressing.  It could have been done back in Washington. The fact that Johnson held Air Force One up for more than an hour (?) waiting for the judge is a small clue that he wasn't worried that the murder was, say, the beginning of an attack by the Soviet Union.  It is a small indication that he knew who murdered Kennedy and he was in no danger.

 

He was in charge, however, of the investigation that must play a major role in the cover up. 

 

Four events the first day tell us a lot. 1. Immediately snatching of the body back to DC in order to control the autopsy.  Control of the information about the wounds was central to the cover up and an early decision had to be made.  Who do you suppose directed that?  I assume you accept the idea that there was an organized cover up and that Johnson was running it.  The decision had to be made by Johnson or on the ground by someone who had the trust of Johnson.

  

2. Quickly arresting Oswald at the theater. Has there ever been an explanation for this happening so quickly after the murder?  Other than the plan was to apprehend and kill him as soon as possible to prevent him from defending himself.  The preplanned cover up was already underway.

 

3. The call from the White House situation room telling those coming back to DC that the murderer had already been arrested and he did it alone.  Absolute proof that the preplanned cover up was off and running. The Situation Room was run at the time by McGeorge Bundy, the guy who had already redrafted NSM 263 as 273 that Johnson would sign the day after JFK was buried.

 

4. Asking Oswald, in his first interrogation, where he was at the time of the murder.  Sure, this is SOP.  But in this case the killers immediately set out to destroy Oswald's alibi. Later that day they tried to intimidate Buell Frazier into providing info on Oswald.  That evening they went to see Lovelady with a copy of Altgens 6 because they were afraid the prominent figure on the steps might be Oswald, per his alibi.  

 

BC: Post-JFKA, the CIA scared LBJ with WWIII talk, due to the LHO-Kostikov connection. I think the CIA arranged for the meeting, that happened curiously on a Saturday, with the Russian embassy was closed.  Then they could smear LHO, or freeze a real investigation. 

 

RO:  No, the CIA didn't scare Johnson with WW3 talk.  Johnson himself used such talk to bully Warren into accepting the chairmanship of the WC.  And to prevent any talk by the Cubans or anyone else of invading Cuba, which would cause a confrontation with the Soviets. Johnson probably knew something about Oswald's defection.

 

BC:  If I was on a jury, and I had to vote to send LBJ to the gas chamber for the murder of JFK,I could not.

 

I have reasonable doubts he was involved. 

 

RO:  Based on what?  You haven't responded to the points I made other than to reference evidence you have to know never existed, or if it somehow once did, was long ago discarded..

[James DiEugenio]

Roger, I don't even agree that LBJ ran the cover up.

Outside of the WC itself, I think that legally and forensically the prime guy in that area was Hoover.  And I think its provable.

It was Katzenbach at the first meeting.  But it was Hoover who ran the actual investigation since the WC had no investigators of their own.

Joe, it was A Texan Looks at Lyndon which began the motif about LBJ  being a serial killer, including his sister.

Billy Sol Estes is the guy who began the whole thing about Henry Marshall. Estes never got over Johnson not protecting him from Bobby Kennedy.

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

The fact that Johnson held Air Force One up for more than an hour (?) waiting for the judge is a small clue that he wasn't worried that the murder was, say, the beginning of an attack by the Soviet Union. 

I agree.

[Douglas Caddy]

 

Joan Mellen's book, Faustian Bargains: Lyndon Johnson and Mac Wallace in the Robber Baron Culture of Texas, is 360 pages in length.

 

To me, the most instructive part of her book appears on page 14:

 

"Max Wallace is a case in point, his history with Lyndon Johnon a window into Johnson's methods. Wallce's story is so intriguing because unlike other of Johnson's acolytes, it is difficult to prove what he did for Lyndon Johnson and what Lyndon Johnson in turn did for him. More than any other of Johnson's proteges and acolytes, Wallace's connection to him remains cloaked in secrecy."

[Douglas Caddy]

 

Did Jackie O blame LBJ? - POLITICO

The answer is yes.

[Roger Odisio]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Roger, I don't even agree that LBJ ran the cover up.

Outside of the WC itself, I think that legally and forensically the prime guy in that area was Hoover.  And I think its provable.

It was Katzenbach at the first meeting.  But it was Hoover who ran the actual investigation since the WC had no investigators of their own.

Joe, it was A Texan Looks at Lyndon which began the motif about LBJ  being a serial killer, including his sister.

Billy Sol Estes is the guy who began the whole thing about Henry Marshall. Estes never got over Johnson not protecting him from Bobby Kennedy.

Do you also then disagree with the idea that a coverup plan was in place before the murder?  If instead you agree it was in place, can you imagine it was Hoover who worked with the murderers to create one, not Johnson? 

 

For one thing, Hoover could do little to protect the killers after the murder. Which is a key reason the others wanted Johnson to be involved, starting with some assurance they would be protected, and including the idea that as president he would do some policy things Kennedy had refused to do. These things were above Hoover's pay grade.  As president Johnson could do that and did.

 

Once he became president, Johnson, not Hoover, was in charge of any post murder investigation.  Johnson, not Hoover, devised the WC and put Dulles on it, as a major element in the cover up.

 

But the coverup involved a lot more than the WC on which you concentrate.  Yes, Hoover's FBI did much of the initial police work, and the WC hired no real investigators.  But then the WC hired a bunch of lawyers to collect the information finally used to frame Oswald.  The magic bullet being the lynchpin, the key piece used for the frame.

 

There was a flurry of actions after the murder that began the coverup. Did you see my reply to Ben mentioning 4 key ones?  Each action was obviously preplanned. I can't imagine Hoover being involved in directing them.  Can you? 

 

The coverup was directed from the White House starting that weekend (and maybe from the The Farm in Virginia where Dulles was). Johnson was on the phone continuously. We've heard tapes of some of those conversations from the WH, but not all of them.  

 

Johnson and Hoover became pretty much joined at the hip after Johnson bought a house across the street from Hoover when he came to Washington.  Johnson recognized the power in Washington that Hoover was. But Hoover's power had some limits.

 

Johnson's friendship with Hoover was valuable; he used Hoover to reach much greater heights.

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

BC: Was LBJ part of the JFKA plot, or at least clued in?

 

You have provided a lot of motives. I could go further, and say, "unless LBJ becomes President, he becomes defrocked by the LIFE magazine expose and other investigations into his financial affairs." It was do or die, for LBJ. 

 

RO:  I didn't base anything on motives, of which there were many. This one was one for sure.  That's a different  way to pursue the matter.

 

BC:  Still, what evidence have you provided that LBJ was in on the JFKA, or even had concrete advance knowledge?

 

We have no texts, recorded phone calls, memos, etc. No credible, or even possibly credible person, has come forward and said, "Yeah, I worked with LBJ on the JFKA." No one remembers conversations with LBJ, in which the pending JFKA was discussed. 

 

In Larry Hancock's SWHT, there were Cuban exiles dropping hints about the pending JFKA, but none said "we are working with LBJ."

 

RO:   None of my note is based on this kind of evidence.  You're not going to find any of that today, and if you did I would suspect it was faked.  That's why you have to piece together things you do know and make deductions. One of the things you do know (I hope) is that Johnson ran the cover up and the plan for the murder and coverup was of one piece that had to be worked out before the murder. That's a good start.

 

Lyndon Johnson became president the moment JFK was pronounced dead at 1:00 PM.  The swearing in ceremony was just window dressing.  It could have been done back in Washington. The fact that Johnson held Air Force One up for more than an hour (?) waiting for the judge is a small clue that he wasn't worried that the murder was, say, the beginning of an attack by the Soviet Union.  It is a small indication that he knew who murdered Kennedy and he was in no danger.

 

He was in charge, however, of the investigation that must play a major role in the cover up. 

 

Four events the first day tell us a lot. 1. Immediately snatching of the body back to DC in order to control the autopsy.  Control of the information about the wounds was central to the cover up and an early decision had to be made.  Who do you suppose directed that?  I assume you accept the idea that there was an organized cover up and that Johnson was running it.  The decision had to be made by Johnson or on the ground by someone who had the trust of Johnson.

  

2. Quickly arresting Oswald at the theater. Has there ever been an explanation for this happening so quickly after the murder?  Other than the plan was to apprehend and kill him as soon as possible to prevent him from defending himself.  The preplanned cover up was already underway.

 

3. The call from the White House situation room telling those coming back to DC that the murderer had already been arrested and he did it alone.  Absolute proof that the preplanned cover up was off and running. The Situation Room was run at the time by McGeorge Bundy, the guy who had already redrafted NSM 263 as 273 that Johnson would sign the day after JFK was buried.

 

4. Asking Oswald, in his first interrogation, where he was at the time of the murder.  Sure, this is SOP.  But in this case the killers immediately set out to destroy Oswald's alibi. Later that day they tried to intimidate Buell Frazier into providing info on Oswald.  That evening they went to see Lovelady with a copy of Altgens 6 because they were afraid the prominent figure on the steps might be Oswald, per his alibi.  

 

BC: Post-JFKA, the CIA scared LBJ with WWIII talk, due to the LHO-Kostikov connection. I think the CIA arranged for the meeting, that happened curiously on a Saturday, with the Russian embassy was closed.  Then they could smear LHO, or freeze a real investigation. 

 

RO:  No, the CIA didn't scare Johnson with WW3 talk.  Johnson himself used such talk to bully Warren into accepting the chairmanship of the WC.  And to prevent any talk by the Cubans or anyone else of invading Cuba, which would cause a confrontation with the Soviets. Johnson probably knew something about Oswald's defection.

 

BC:  If I was on a jury, and I had to vote to send LBJ to the gas chamber for the murder of JFK,I could not.

 

I have reasonable doubts he was involved. 

 

RO:  Based on what?  You haven't responded to the points I made other than to reference evidence you have to know never existed, or if it somehow once did, was long ago discarded..

RO--

I have responded to some of the points you have made. 

I agree that LBJ was part of the cover-up, in the way he chose the WC. But even before the WC was formed, the conclusion had been reached.  

But, we can't go about things backwards. 

LBJ, or anyone else, is not guilty until proven innocent. There is a dangerous trend in modern rank partisan politics, and the McCarty era, and during any witch-hunting or partisan season, to declare certain people guilty.

But LBJ, or Allen Dulles, or LHO, or anyone else, must be considered innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. There is a fast slide to hell otherwise. 

LBJ held the swearing-in ceremony on AF1.  Perhaps LBJ wanted to show the public he was not seizing power, but waiting for proper authorities to recognize and swear him in. Seizing the presidency summarily after an assassination does have an unsavory ring about it. 

I cannot see into LBJ's mind.

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Ken Davies]

Means, motive, opportunity.  Who gained more than LBJ and the war mongers?

[Ron Bulman]

15 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

RB, could you please list the most scathing things this rancher said about LBJ?

Did he say anything about LBJ that would suggest he thought LBJ was capable of ordering murders?

Well Joe, he starts out with this in the introduction.  "his ambitious desires, his vanity and monumental egotism, his vindicative nature and his evil genius."

Then in the chapter on Friends and Favors, "overnight this inordinately vain, egotistical ambitious extrovert became . . ."  He was probably the first to detail the Mac Wallace murder trial here as well.  Then there is the $800,000,000 Moroccan Air Base scandal.  Then he goes into Billie Sol Estes in great detail, the cotton allotments and more.  After this comes the suicide of US Agriculture official Henry Marshall.  He shot himself in the chest five times with his own .22 rifle.  Next is Krutilek, a CPA for Estes questioned by the FBI, found decomposing in his car in a remote area with a hose hooked to his tail pipe leading to the car interior.  Carbon monoxide suicide.  The county pathologist said no (no further explanation given.  Carbon monoxide supposedly also got Estes associate Henry Orr, changing his tailpipe in his garage.  With the engine running I guess.  That's a little over half way through it.  The next to last chapter is titled Power to Incite and Coerce.

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Well Joe, he starts out with this in the introduction.  "his ambitious desires, his vanity and monumental egotism, his vindicative nature and his evil genius."

Then in the chapter on Friends and Favors, "overnight this inordinately vain, egotistical ambitious extrovert became . . ."  He was probably the first to detail the Mac Wallace murder trial here as well.  Then there is the $800,000,000 Moroccan Air Base scandal.  Then he goes into Billie Sol Estes in great detail, the cotton allotments and more.  After this comes the suicide of US Agriculture official Henry Marshall.  He shot himself in the chest five times with his own .22 rifle.  Next is Krutilek, a CPA for Estes questioned by the FBI, found decomposing in his car in a remote area with a hose hooked to his tail pipe leading to the car interior.  Carbon monoxide suicide.  The county pathologist said no (no further explanation given.  Carbon monoxide supposedly also got Estes associate Henry Orr, changing his tailpipe in his garage.  With the engine running I guess.  That's a little over half way through it.  The next to last chapter is titled Power to Incite and Coerce.

So, the answer is yes?

[Joe Bauer]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 Then there is the $800,000,000 Moroccan Air Base scandal.

Have never read of this story. What happened there?

My brother was an air policeman stationed at an Air Force Base in Morocco around 1960 and forward.

The same base?

By the way...not to veer off the LBJ subject at all but this Morocco base is where my brother and his fellow AP's on guard duty one sight saw several circular red objects hovering over the base. With one dropping down and slowly flying over ground parked bombers. Then...shooting off into the sky at such a fast rate you had to be staring at it directly to notice it doing so versus thinking it just blinked off.

My brother told me that when his security detail called in their sighting to their superior officer that there was a long pause and then this command:

"We have nothing on radar. Therefore, you saw nothing. And don't write home about it."

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Benjamin Cole]

Note to all:

I won't be the first to say, "It is pretty hard to prove a negative." 

I cannot prove LBJ had no involvement in the JFKA.

But we have seen whole books written, detailing that the Mafia did it, or (much less convincingly) that Nazi elements did it, or even Israelis, and of course, many others. I think there is book somewhere connecting the Bush family to the JFKA (George Bush Sr. was very tight with the CIA, to put it mildly). 

LBJ is a figure in some books, and not in others. 

LBJ did set up the WC. But after the CIA told him WWIII is on the table. And on the other hand no one ever says, "and LBJ took a close interest in the WC's machinations."

If LBJ had much interest in the WC, it has escaped me. No staffer has ever said, "We wanted to get into that area of investigation, but the White House put the kabosh on it." 

BTW, it seems LBJ had many of the negative character traits attributed to him. 

Interesting topic. I will say, JFKA plots that involve many pre-JFKA participants are inherently dubious. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

10 hours ago, Ken Davies said:

Means, motive, opportunity.  Who gained more than LBJ and the war mongers?

Yes, and speaking of means, who had the oversight and authority to order the prompt scrubbing of the limo, the confiscation of JFK's corpse from the Parkland coroner, and the faux "Secret Service" confiscation of cameras in Dealey Plaza?  J. Edgar Hoover?

To attribute the comprehensive cover up of the JFK murder plot solely to LBJ's next door neighbor, J. Edgar Hoover, seems like a stretch.

I think Fletcher Prouty commented on this issue-- i.e., that many aspects of the plot must have been managed at the highest administrative level in the Federal government.

[Joe Bauer]

12 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Yes, and speaking of means, who had the oversight and authority to order the prompt scrubbing of the limo, the confiscation of JFK's corpse from the Parkland coroner, and the faux "Secret Service" confiscation of cameras in Dealey Plaza?  J. Edgar Hoover?

To attribute the comprehensive cover up of the JFK murder plot solely to LBJ's next door neighbor, J. Edgar Hoover, seems like a stretch.

I think Fletcher Prouty commented on this issue-- i.e., that many aspects of the plot must have been managed at the highest administrative level in the Federal government.

Whoever created the original choice list for an investigative commission and presented this to LBJ is my pick for one of the top suspects in regards to who was really "in charge" in controlling the entire situation and subsequent cover-up.

Firstly keep any investigation authority away from the Congress and bully away any other contrary efforts to take control of such. Including pressuring away any serious and well financed one in Texas as well.

Make sure the "Oswald nut case who just got lucky" scenario is the main foundational focus baseline throughout the investigation and any trap door testimonies suggesting otherwise be controlled and veered away from.

The WC list presented to LBJ, and who then had J. Edgar Hoover rubber stamp it, was the very beginning of logically strong suspicion of a setup and coverup agenda from the get-go.

Any common sense American law system respecting person would cringe if they heard a Grand Jury looking into the murder of anyone, consisted of people "the murder victim" had fired and who hated them for it ( Dulles), of people who were lifetime close to that fired person ( McCloy), of people who knew in advance they were going to compromise the independent body mandate of their investigation commission ( Gerald Ford ) who kept the FBI informed way beyond that mandate.

FBI agent James Hosty once stated in a radio interview promoting his book "Assignment Oswald" ..."we had three of them."

Referring to members of the Warren Commission ( Ford and two others unnamed ) who kept his agency informed of their closed-door meeting findings, again, beyond and in violation of the "independent integrity " mandate imposed upon it.

It wasn't supposed to be "The FBI Commission." With JFK and RFK hating J. Edgar Hoover as it's head.

Also, members of Congress from JFK hating segregation states and who LBJ knew he could control if they started to get out of line. Earl Warren himself seemed bullied and perhaps was made to believe his mission really was about preventing WW 3?

Putting these JFK conflicted biased and other loyalty compromised men on that commission, especially the JFK hating Dulles, so obviously destroyed it's integrity from it's inception. And everyone knew it.

You'd think that J. Edgar Hoover himself might have paused a little when LBJ mentioned Alan Dulles name from his investigation commission member choice list.

Uh ... well ... Mr. President ... uh ... you really think appointing a man who JFK humiliatingly fired and who hates JFK for this slight is the right kind of person to choose for a truth finding commission regards the murder of JFK and that you are promoting as the most unbiased and highest integrity one?

How about balancing things out a bit. Maybe replacing Dulles with Adlai Stevenson?

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Joe Bauer