Gaza and JFK

[Paul Rigby]

Eric Goldman's Jewish Cinémathèque: "Tantura"

Dec 6, 2022

Director Alon Schwarz discusses “Tantura,” his documentary as it investigates controversial events at the Palestinian village of Tantura in 1948, where survivors claimed to witness a massacre of civilians by Israeli troops.

https://youtu.be/KALneGG2n_I?si=5_XSDF98luUXSNNF

You can pay to watch the full documentary here:

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/tantura2

Executions and Mass Graves in Tantura

May 30, 2023

Commissioned by Adalah Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, this investigation reveals new evidence about massacres conducted in the Palestinian village of Tantura by Israeli forces after its occupation on 22-23 May 1948 and subsequent depopulation. Launched on the 75th anniversary of the Nakba, it brings together testimonies and photographic evidence to locate several mass graves in which the victims were buried—including one previously unidentified.

https://youtu.be/rteB5T4hwVY?si=5ND6pdaoDDIOLdC3

To read more:

https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/executions-and-mass-graves-in-tantura-23-may-1948

 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Paul;

Let us not be baited by Mike and Jonathan into a debate over the whole history of the dispute.

I would rather keep it on topic.

Just to play it safe and keep it in this forum.

[Paul Rigby]

38 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Paul;

Let us not be baited by Mike and Jonathan into a debate over the whole history of the dispute.

I would rather keep it on topic.

Just to play it safe and keep it in this forum.

“The seriousness of Kennedy’s Egyptian policy is well evident in the dramatic increase of economic aid which flowed into the U.A.R. during the period when JFK occupied the Oval Office. From the end of the Second World War to the final days of the Eisenhower administration, American assistance to Egypt amounted to slightly more than $250 million. During Kennedy’s tenure in the White House, that amount exceeded $500 million – a dramatic increase by any standard of measurement,”

Andre G. Kuczewski, Kennedy and the Middle East [rev of Modechai Gazit’s President Kennedy’s Policy Toward the Arab States and Israel], Journal of Palestine Studies, V15 N1, (Autumn 1985), 130-131

[Benjamin Cole]

The keffiyeh crowd has delivered a demented, poisoned narrative on Israel. 

The short story is Muslims will not tolerate non-Muslims, in almost every nation run by Muslims. This is not even debatable. But two million Muslims live in Israel, and growing numbers of Christians. 

If you want to learn about ethnic cleansing, try reading what happened to non-Muslims from Tunisia to Indonesia, including the slaughter by Muslims of 3 million non-Muslim ethnic Chinese and communists (called unbelievers) in Indonesia (1965-1966). That was midway through decades-long pogroms throughout Islamia.  

The US left-wing, in valorizing Hamas, is sinking into depravity. 

There is a certain idiot in the EF-JFKA, I forget who, who says he believes that 9/11 was an Israeli plot. Right. All those Muslims on the airplanes were working for Israel. No demented analysis there, but the usual coprophagia from anti-Semites.  

In truth, what happened on Oct. 7 was not an aberration, but the extension of long-time tradition in the Arab world. If you doubt that, consider Hamas has vowed to do it again.  

The Jews, and other non-Muslims, have lived in Israel for 2,500 years. The Muslims, due to rank religious hatred, do not want them there, or anywhere in Islam. 

I doubt JFK could have made headway in the Mideast in the face a such implacable hatred. His own advisers were telling him the Arabs "had missed a lot of trains" in roadways to peace. That was polite talk. 

BTW, Putin has emerged as a backer of Hamas. How surprising. 

 

[Greg Doudna]

My hope for the future, here is where the Martin Luther King activity is happening: the movement in Israel called Standing Together. I like to think JFK and RFK would have supported more room and space for voices like this if they had lived.     

“None of us will be equal and safe unless the other is equal and safe,” said Abed. “Both peoples are hurting. We need to stop the bloodshed, and that starts from the realization that we all have equal rights to our homeland. We deserve freedom, and no one is going anywhere.”

Standing Together (founded eight years ago after another Israeli war on Gaza) and other Israeli peace and justice organizations staunchly oppose Netanyahu, his extreme-right governing coalition, and its religious nationalist mass base (including the settler bloc) and their effort to exploit the crisis to advance an undemocratic, anti-Arab, and ethnic cleansing agenda across what they consider “Greater Israel.”

The broader peace movement includes Combatants for Peace, Breaking the Silence, Peace Now, A Land for All, the parliamentary faction Hadash led by the Communist Party of Israel, and scores of other grassroots peace-oriented groups, kibbutzim, and human rights groups. Vivian Silver, a renowned peace activist slain at the Kibbutz Be’eri on Oct. 7, was a member of Women Wage Peace and B'Tselem, a human rights group.

These groups reflect one of the contending political currents in Israel. They work at the civil society level to build Jewish-Palestinian unity and forge a new majority consensus for a just peace. They advocate an end to indiscriminate killing of civilians, the siege of Gaza and occupation of the West Bank, settler expansionism and violence, winning recognition of equality and national rights of Palestinians, and security for all.

Expressions of Jewish–Palestinian solidarity, despite apartheid-like segregation and polarization, occurred during and in the aftermath of the Oct. 7 atrocities carried out by Hamas. Most Palestinians in Israel, which represent 20% of the population, were horrified. Mansour Abbas, who heads the United Arab List, denounced the attacks, and Bedouin Arabs in the Negev Desert, among those killed by Hamas, attempted to rescue Israeli Jews at significant risk to themselves.

This peace and democratic movement strongly believes the 100-year war against Palestinians is a failure, leaving both peoples less secure. Israel cannot destroy Hamas militarily nor ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Nor can Israeli Jews be driven out through armed struggle and terrorism.

“A military solution is a very dangerous fantasy,” says Avner Wishnitzer of Combatants for Peace. Only a political solution can create a path to peace, equality, and security for all.

“When people have to fight for their humanity or pick a side that cancels the humanity of the other, you need a different solution,” says Abed. “We need a new story and it’s difficult to shift. We need to stop the bloodshed and that starts from the realization that we all deserve equal rights to exist in our homeland and freedom and no one is going anywhere.” (https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/no-ones-going-anywhere-peace-forces-see-intertwined-israeli-and-palestinian-futures/)

[Benjamin Cole]

5 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

My hope for the future, here is where the Martin Luther King activity is happening: the movement in Israel called Standing Together. I like to think JFK and RFK would have supported more room and space for voices like this if they had lived.     

“None of us will be equal and safe unless the other is equal and safe,” said Abed. “Both peoples are hurting. We need to stop the bloodshed, and that starts from the realization that we all have equal rights to our homeland. We deserve freedom, and no one is going anywhere.”

Standing Together (founded eight years ago after another Israeli war on Gaza) and other Israeli peace and justice organizations staunchly oppose Netanyahu, his extreme-right governing coalition, and its religious nationalist mass base (including the settler bloc) and their effort to exploit the crisis to advance an undemocratic, anti-Arab, and ethnic cleansing agenda across what they consider “Greater Israel.”

The broader peace movement includes Combatants for Peace, Breaking the Silence, Peace Now, A Land for All, the parliamentary faction Hadash led by the Communist Party of Israel, and scores of other grassroots peace-oriented groups, kibbutzim, and human rights groups. Vivian Silver, a renowned peace activist slain at the Kibbutz Be’eri on Oct. 7, was a member of Women Wage Peace and B'Tselem, a human rights group.

These groups reflect one of the contending political currents in Israel. They work at the civil society level to build Jewish-Palestinian unity and forge a new majority consensus for a just peace. They advocate an end to indiscriminate killing of civilians, the siege of Gaza and occupation of the West Bank, settler expansionism and violence, winning recognition of equality and national rights of Palestinians, and security for all.

Expressions of Jewish–Palestinian solidarity, despite apartheid-like segregation and polarization, occurred during and in the aftermath of the Oct. 7 atrocities carried out by Hamas. Most Palestinians in Israel, which represent 20% of the population, were horrified. Mansour Abbas, who heads the United Arab List, denounced the attacks, and Bedouin Arabs in the Negev Desert, among those killed by Hamas, attempted to rescue Israeli Jews at significant risk to themselves.

This peace and democratic movement strongly believes the 100-year war against Palestinians is a failure, leaving both peoples less secure. Israel cannot destroy Hamas militarily nor ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Nor can Israeli Jews be driven out through armed struggle and terrorism.

“A military solution is a very dangerous fantasy,” says Avner Wishnitzer of Combatants for Peace. Only a political solution can create a path to peace, equality, and security for all.

“When people have to fight for their humanity or pick a side that cancels the humanity of the other, you need a different solution,” says Abed. “We need a new story and it’s difficult to shift. We need to stop the bloodshed and that starts from the realization that we all deserve equal rights to exist in our homeland and freedom and no one is going anywhere.” (https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/no-ones-going-anywhere-peace-forces-see-intertwined-israeli-and-palestinian-futures/)

GD-

Thanks for posting. 

It is true, there is a wide range of political debate inside Israel, a sign of a robust democracy. No one is afraid to speak their mind in Israel, and if you put three Israelis in a room, you will get four opinions. 

I too hope for a peaceful resolution of Mideast troubles, and in Ukraine, and anywhere in the world, for that matter. The 600,000+ dead in Syria in recent years is a horror, as was the Oct. 7 massacre. 

Likely 200,000+ are dead in Ukraine (Ukraine and Russian soldiers), thanks to Putin's warmongering. 

I wish it would all stop. 

[Paul Brancato]

Standing Together - an antidote to Tribalism. We see the latter everywhere in every form, and it continues to be destructive. 
Ben - Pakistan is a Muslim state which, though almost entirely Muslim, guarantees freedom of religion in their constitution. Have you looked at all the Muslim countries to fact check your statement? It’s interesting that British rule is often the antecedent to religious or racial divisions. When each group in a country like India is given representation in a parliamentary government it reinforces tribal attitudes. Britain made Pakistan a separate country for Muslims, thinking it would solve a problem that barely existed prior to their colonial occupation. In their history India had had both Muslim and Hindu rulers. Now we have nukes on either side of the border. 
As much as I appreciate your analysis, and your condemnation of Hamas, and Putin, it just doesn’t go far enough in my opinion. As JFK said, one has to put oneself in the shoes of the ‘enemy’ of peace is the desired outcome. The last 100 years of middle east history cannot be reduced to the intolerance of Muslims. 

[W. Niederhut]

9 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

On the subject of Netanyahu's ethnic cleansing of Gaza, JFK's American University Peace speech, and RFK, Jr., Edward Curtin has published two recent articles.

People may recall that Curtin published a favorable, accurate review of JFK Revisited.  He was also an RFK, Jr. supporter, prior to RFK, Jr.'s defense of Netanyahu's recent Gaza war crimes-- where the civilian death toll has now surpassed 21,000, including more than 8,000 murdered children.

I posted the first Curtin article on the Political Discussion board last night, because I thought it deserved its own thread.

An Epistle to Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., by Edward Curtin - The Unz Review

 

The deafening silence of the RFK, Jr. fan boys on this forum today about Edward Curtin's candid, accurate essay on JFK's Peace Speech, RFK, Jr., and Netanyahu's Gaza genocide is simply astonishing.

What's wrong with you guys?  Serious question.

You're the same group of ostriches who have persistently refused to discuss the critically important 21st century history of the 9/11 op and the Neocon Project for a New American Century, and --in Paul Rigby's case-- to condemn Putin's war crimes in Ukraine, while assiduously avoiding any review or discussion of former KGB Lt. Col. Vladimir Putin's history of transforming the nascent Russian Federation democracy into a 21st century totalitarian police state.

No comment about Curtin's essay?  I happen to know that James DiEugenio has had a positive opinion of Curtin's previous work.  What happened?

Meanwhile, Ben Cole is referencing the CIA's use of Suharto and Muslims against communism in Indonesia as an argument for generalized Neocon-style Islamophobia.  Beware the Green Menace.

I'm guessing that Ben is clueless about the CIA's similar use of Muslims (including their trainees, Osama Bin Laden and "Al Qaeda") against communism in the Soviet -Afghan War, and against the Yugoslav communist rump state in the Bosnian and Kosovo Wars.  (Yes, Osama Bin Laden, et.al.,  were working with the KLA in Kosovo, and with the Izetbegovic regime in Bosnia, and even using Bosnian passports in the 1990s.)

Has Ben Cole, the MAGA neo-Islamophobe, studied the Likud Party charter-- which has explicitly vowed to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state in Palestine? 

Is Ben aware of Netanyahu's public boasts about successfully sabotaging a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestine crisis, and supporting Hamas for the past 12 years as a method of sabotaging a two-state solution?

Is Ben aware that Netanyahu has recently informed his Likud Party associates that he is their best option for preventing a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian crisis?

Meanwhile, Netanyahu has now used cluster bombs to massacre more than 21,000 Palestinian civilians-- including more than 8,000 children-- in one of the world's most densely populated regions, while demolishing schools, hospitals, and more than 56,000 residential buildings.

Where are our progressive, Democratic, JFK-like peaceniks nowadays?

The only published writers willing to talk honestly about this Gaza crisis are a handful of progressives -- e.g., Jeff Sachs, Norman Soloman, Ralph Nader, Bernie Sanders, Juan Cole, and Edward Curtin.  

On this forum, the list is even shorter-- Douglas Caddy, Kirk Gallaway and I.

Edited December 29, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Paul Brancato]

Thanks William. Is this a thread about RFK Jr? No. but since you brought it up his stance is closer to Ben’s than to mine. I listened to a long interview where he addressed this, and found it painful and disappointing. But which presidential hopeful are we comparing him to? 
One more thing - the two state solution may be preferable to what exists today, but don’t you think One state would be better? Two states living side by side in peace and harmony? Easy to see why there is so much opposition to the idea. One state was once a principled position, now it’s anathema, because we are devolving into tribal hatred. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Paul Brancato

[W. Niederhut]

1 minute ago, Paul Brancato said:

Thanks William. Is this a thread about RFK Jr? No. but since you brought it up his stance is closer to Ben’s than to mine. I listened to a long interview where he addressed this, and found it painful and disappointing. But which presidential hopeful are we comparing him to? 

Paul,

     RFK, Jr. is only a small part of what I have mentioned here.  There are much larger issues having to do with our forum's reluctance to discuss the historic relationships between the CIA and Islam, (e.g., Suharto, Bin Laden's "Al Qaeda" mujaheddin in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Kosovo, Libya, and Syria) and, of course, Israel.

     This forum, at times, scratches the surface of 21st century Deep State history, then promptly avoids talking about it.

     As an example, in James DiEugenio's recent Substack essay on JFK and Gaza, the only 21st century references were to CIA Operation Timber Sycamore (in Syria) and the U.S./NATO war to overthrow and murder Ghaddafi.

     

[Benjamin Cole]

11 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Thanks William. Is this a thread about RFK Jr? No. but since you brought it up his stance is closer to Ben’s than to mine. I listened to a long interview where he addressed this, and found it painful and disappointing. But which presidential hopeful are we comparing him to? 
One more thing - the two state solution may be preferable to what exists today, but don’t you think One state would be better? Two states living side by side in peace and harmony? Easy to see why there is so much opposition to the idea. One state was once a principled position, now it’s anathema, because we are devolving into tribal hatred. 

RFK2 appears to be a realist on Israel. 

Regarding Pakistan: 

"The Jewish population of Pakistan has rapidly decreased since the state's founding and separation from neighbouring India in August 1947, and as of 2019 estimates, stands at less than 200 people amidst Pakistan's total population of over 200 million, the majority of whom are Muslims."--Wikipedia. 

The same story. 

BTW, there are reports of good treatment of religious minorities in Hindu India. So this is not to say all Pakistanis, or Indians, mistreat religious minorities. 

I see little chance for peace in the Mideast, as long as non-Muslims live there. They will not be tolerated, and will be actively warred upon. Hamas has vowed to repeat Oct. 7.  Given what happened, it is reasonable to take Hamas at its word. 

But the Israelis, who include Jews and Christians and other religious minorities, say they are not leaving. 

Get ready for a few more decades of strife. 

Paul--Even though we have never met, I know you are not part of this hatred. 

 

 

[Miles Massicotte]

16 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

RFK2 appears to be a realist on Israel.

Ben I tend to personally agree with you politically on a lot of matters, but what praytell is RFK Jr. realistic about in regards to this?

RFK Jr. said just 10 days ago "The Palestinian people are arguably the most pampered people by international aid organisations."

Northern Gaza has no functional hospitals left.

What about this is realistic?

[Robert Burrows]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The keffiyeh crowd has delivered a demented, poisoned narrative on Israel. 

The short story is Muslims will not tolerate non-Muslims, in almost every nation run by Muslims. This is not even debatable. But two million Muslims live in Israel, and growing numbers of Christians. 

If you want to learn about ethnic cleansing, try reading what happened to non-Muslims from Tunisia to Indonesia, including the slaughter by Muslims of 3 million non-Muslim ethnic Chinese and communists (called unbelievers) in Indonesia (1965-1966). That was midway through decades-long pogroms throughout Islamia.  

The US left-wing, in valorizing Hamas, is sinking into depravity. 

There is a certain idiot in the EF-JFKA, I forget who, who says he believes that 9/11 was an Israeli plot. Right. All those Muslims on the airplanes were working for Israel. No demented analysis there, but the usual coprophagia from anti-Semites.  

In truth, what happened on Oct. 7 was not an aberration, but the extension of long-time tradition in the Arab world. If you doubt that, consider Hamas has vowed to do it again.  

The Jews, and other non-Muslims, have lived in Israel for 2,500 years. The Muslims, due to rank religious hatred, do not want them there, or anywhere in Islam. 

I doubt JFK could have made headway in the Mideast in the face a such implacable hatred. His own advisers were telling him the Arabs "had missed a lot of trains" in roadways to peace. That was polite talk. 

BTW, Putin has emerged as a backer of Hamas. How surprising. 

 

This Islamophobic propaganda should be removed by the moderators immediately. 

[Benjamin Cole]

34 minutes ago, Miles Massicotte said:

Ben I tend to personally agree with you politically on a lot of matters, but what praytell is RFK Jr. realistic about in regards to this?

RFK Jr. said just 10 days ago "The Palestinian people are arguably the most pampered people by international aid organisations."

Northern Gaza has no functional hospitals left.

What about this is realistic?

MM-

You might want to hold Hamas accountable for has happened in Gaza. 

They perpetrated an unspeakable atrocity, recorded and broadcast the heinous crimes, and vowed larger repeats. 

Hamas built tunnels under civilian structures in Gaza as a tactic, not incidentally, in preparation for this war. This is no longer disputed. 

I do not see peace in Israel's future. As long as there is a non-Muslim state in the Mideast, there will be war.  

Keep in mind, the Sunnis and Shiites have been killing each other for 1,400 years. Yes, that long. 

They were at it again in Iraq, after the US invasion dislodged the relatively secular Saddam. Separate neighborhoods and districts had to be created for Sunni and Shiite, and mosques were blown up. Horrible slaughters. 

I hope for peace in Mideast. We all do. 

Many people say Westerners do not understand non-Western mindsets. We cannot comprehend unreasoning and implacable hatred. We think everyone wants to be like us, and we project our values upon others.

Think about the widespread celebrations after Oct. 7 across Muslim nations. 

As a Westerner, I find that unfathomable. 

The new American left is valorizing Hamas. Maybe some Westerners are becoming unWesternized. This can't be good. 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Robert Burrows said:

This Islamophobic propaganda should be removed by the moderators immediately. 

Robert,

     My hunch is that Ben Cole knows almost nothing about the Talmud or the history of Islam.  He's most likely repeating recent talking points by Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi, or other Murdoch media affiliates.

     Has Ben read Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire?

     Sir Steven Runciman's definitive History of the Crusades?

     Bat Ye'or's definitive histories of the dhimmitude of Jews and Christians in the Middle East and Balkans?

     It has been a subject of special interest to me for the past quarter century, mainly because of the centuries-long history of Islamic conflicts and co-existence with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

     Orthodox Christians and Jews have always been allowed to live in Islamic societies as dhimmis-- religious minorities who pay a special religious tax, called the jizya.  The Egyptian Copts are a well-known example.  

    Sadly, Islamophobic propaganda has been a growth industry in the U.S. since 9/11, and many Islamic societies have been mercilessly destroyed in our multi-trillion dollar post-9/11 Neocon "War on Terror"-- especially in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria.

     A refutation of Ben Cole's abysmally ignorant comments about the 9/11 evidence are a subject for an entirely different thread, and a different EF board.  Suffice it to say that there is a wide array of scientific and forensic data debunking the official Bush/Cheney/Zelikow narrative about what happened on 9/11.  Most people, including Ben Cole, know nothing about it.

    Hopefully, Ben will eventually study and begin to comprehend that 9/11 data.  But I won't hold my breath.  Based on his redundant comments on the subject, Ben still hasn't even discovered the evidence that Trump organized and incited a violent mob attack on the U.S. Congress on January 6th.

Edited December 29, 2023 by W. Niederhut