Gaza and JFK

[Benjamin Cole]

This topic should go into Political Discussions section. 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ben, read the above. It is what you quoted from the article that you claim exposes the American left's support of Hamas. I have removed the inflammatory words of the author of the article and replaced them with what the open letter probably says.

If you read that, you will see that the letter merely states the reason Hamas attacked Israel. Giving a reason for something is not the same thing as supporting it.

For reference, here is what the author wrote, with HIS OWN inflammatory words made bold:

 

 

The goal of the author is to raise the ire of people like you who already have a negative bias against liberals.

Well, congratulations to the author... he succeeded.

 

 

See, there he goes again, attempting to influence people like you into hating people like me.

Congratulations to him again! It worked!

(I know you don't hate me prsonally. But you do hate the new American left, and those ARE people like me.)

You have been had. Duped. Just like Trump duped you.

 

 

Well Ben, there extremists on both ends of the spectrum. You should be wary of hate merchants like the author of the article you linked to. It is people like him who are the problem in today's divided America... and in the Middle East as well.

 

This topic should go into the Political Discussion section. This is far removed from the JFKA, and is incredibly divisive as well. 

[W. Niederhut]

One of the most disingenuous tropes in the M$M since October 7th is the oft-repeated nonsense that critics of Netanyahu's Likud Party war crimes in Gaza support Hamas.

Fox News and Benjamin Cole are repeating this false trope lately, just as they used to repeat the false trope that Trump's J6 attack on Congress was a Deep State "Patriot Purge."

Ironically, the guy who has actively supported Hamas for more than a decade is Netanyahu!

Bibi has used Hamas for years to bolster his popularity and sabotage a two-state solution.

Now he's using Hamas as a pretext to ethnically cleanse Palestine of indigenous Palestinians, with U.S. funded cluster bombs.

Here's a reference (from our "Water Cooler" discussions) on that subject.

How Netanyahu's Hamas policy came back to haunt him — and Israel | CBC News

I should add that some of us have been engaged during the past two months in detailed discussions about the Gaza disaster on the "Water Cooler" board here, sharing many high quality articles and analyses-- mostly from marginalized media sources.

Interested forum members should join in our "Water Cooler" discussions.

In addition to analysts like Jeffrey Sachs, Norman Soloman, Ralph Nader, Bernie Sanders, Edward Curtin, et.al., we have been discussing the work of Jeremy Scahill and the investigative journalists at The Intercept (sans former colleague Glenn Greenwald, who now works for Rupert Murdoch's propaganda empire.)

Edited December 29, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Robert Burrows]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

One of the most disingenuous tropes in the M$M since October 7th is the oft-repeated nonsense that critics of Netanyahu's Likud Party war crimes in Gaza support Hamas.

Fox News and Benjamin Cole are repeating this false trope lately, just as they used to repeat the false trope that Trump's J6 attack on Congress was a Deep State "Patriot Purge."

Ironically, the guy who has actively supported Hamas for more than a decade is Netanyahu!

Bibi has used Hamas for years to bolster his popularity and sabotage a two-state solution.

Now he's using Hamas as a pretext to ethnically cleanse Palestine of indigenous Palestinians, with U.S. funded cluster bombs.

Here's a reference (from our "Water Cooler" discussions) on that subject.

How Netanyahu's Hamas policy came back to haunt him — and Israel | CBC News

I should add that some of us have been engaged during the past two months in detailed discussions about the Gaza disaster on the "Water Cooler" board here, sharing many high quality articles and analyses-- mostly from marginalized media sources.

Interested forum members should join in our "Water Cooler" discussions.

In addition to analysts like Jeffrey Sachs, Norman Soloman, Ralph Nader, Bernie Sanders, Edward Curtin, et.al., we have been discussing the work of Jeremy Scahill and the investigative journalists at The Intercept (sans former colleague Glenn Greenwald, who now works for Rupert Murdoch's propaganda empire.)

Have you listened to, or read anything by, Norman Finkelstein?

Edited December 29, 2023 by Robert Burrows

[Paul Rigby]

11 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Both Pauls:

There is an interesting book on the subject you are trying to get across.  And I used it for my talk in Pittsburgh.

Its called Devil's Game by Robert Dreyfuss.

There is a lot of information in there I did not know about.

Like this: the British financed the beginning of the Muslim Brotherhood.  Why?

Because they wanted to keep the monarchies in place in the Middle East so they would not have to deal with Republican governments in their need for oil. Churchill wanted the great British navy to run on cheap Arabian oil. Once Saudi Arabia grew so powerful after the 1973 OPEC embargo, they financed the Muslim Brotherhood.

 

Dreyfuss's book is full of good things, but British financing of Islamists originates earlier, with Russian expansion into the Persian Caucuses. There are some fascinating details in Craig Murray's biography of the legendary Scottish spook Alexander Burnes, among them, this passage:

Palmerston sent a British ship, the Vixen, into the Black Sea in 1836 to run arms to Dagestani rebels, under cover of a cargo of salt. It caused a diplomatic incident when the ship was intercepted by Russian forces, but Palmerston sent an assurance to the Russian Foreign Minister Nesselrode that the British government had no knowledge of the venture. Palmerston was an accomplished xxxx. The Vixen was part of widespread activity by the British secret service in sending arms and advisers to the Chechen, Dagestani and Circassian rebels, which has modern echoes. The operation had been organised by David Urquhart ‘who had brought all the scattered mujahedin units together and even created a single command structure for them to direct their military action against the Russian army’ (10). Urquhart then took up his appointment as First Secretary at the British Embassy in Constantinople. Four years earlier Palmerston had organised secret smuggling of arms for the Polish uprising. Colin Mackenzie, who served in Kabul with Burnes, had taken part (11). The anti-Russian mood of the British establishment went well beyond rhetoric.

Craig Murray, Sikunder Burnes – Master of the Great Game (Birlinn, 2016)

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Robert Burrows said:

Have you listened to, or read anything by, Norman Finkelstein?

I have not, Robert, but his Finkelstein's work looks interesting.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

 

[James DiEugenio]

If the discussion went off topic, it is because that seemed to be the goal of some people on the thread.

My original essay was about JFK and his view of the problem both as a young man and as a president.

That topic is perfectly suitable for this forum.

[Kirk Gallaway]

Before we pull this thread.

To get back on topic, as I say, Jim's circulated this topic several times now. This was about the relationship of JFK and Nasser. The whole premise of this is silly. It's like saying  if Gandhi wasn't assassinated, we'd all be doing TM  now and  mankind would have achieved World Peace  by the end of the Century!

The least pretentious way to present this would have  been  to entitle it something like "What if JFK and Nasser reformed the Arab world and gave the Palestinians a home".  and for the author to admit at the beginning he's a big JFK and Nasser fan and just musing about the possibilities.

Instead Jim approaches the topic with a certainty that's just pretentious and is so convinced he's posed this question over and over again.

Jim: And unlike with Sadat, I think Kennedy and Nasser would have insisted on an overall peace settlement including the Palestinian problem.

And this is as pretentious as it gets. Yes maybe according to Jim's narrative that never happened. Woulda shoulda coulda! 

As I mentioned, Anwar Sadat,together with Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin and President Jimmy Carter,  achieved the Mideast Peace Accords. These peace accords between Egypt and Israel, have now lasted almost 50 years!  

And Sadat was assassinated for it! Nasser had great hopes, but died of a heart attack at 70,  not accomplishing them!

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Dreyfuss said, I think in one of his speeches, that he thought the only time you could have had peace in the Middle East was under Nasser.

And if you just apply some elementary logic, that would mean with JFK, since Foster Dulles before and LBJ after essentially had little use for Nasser, largely because of his pan Arab ambitions. What makes that notable is that Dreyfuss just presents the facts and has no attachment to JFK at all.  And I should add, he leaves some important stuff out.  But he does include the fact that Kennedy also commissioned a State Department study of the advantages and liabilities of bringing back Mossadegh in Iran also.

Kennedy's policy in the area was both creative and original.  And until the likes of Rakove and Muehlenbeck was pretty much hidden.

 

 

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Paul Rigby said:

Dreyfuss's book is full of good things, but British financing of Islamists originates earlier, with Russian expansion into the Persian Caucuses. There are some fascinating details in Craig Murray's biography of the legendary Scottish spook Alexander Burnes, among them, this passage:

Palmerston sent a British ship, the Vixen, into the Black Sea in 1836 to run arms to Dagestani rebels, under cover of a cargo of salt. It caused a diplomatic incident when the ship was intercepted by Russian forces, but Palmerston sent an assurance to the Russian Foreign Minister Nesselrode that the British government had no knowledge of the venture. Palmerston was an accomplished xxxx. The Vixen was part of widespread activity by the British secret service in sending arms and advisers to the Chechen, Dagestani and Circassian rebels, which has modern echoes. The operation had been organised by David Urquhart ‘who had brought all the scattered mujahedin units together and even created a single command structure for them to direct their military action against the Russian army’ (10). Urquhart then took up his appointment as First Secretary at the British Embassy in Constantinople. Four years earlier Palmerston had organised secret smuggling of arms for the Polish uprising. Colin Mackenzie, who served in Kabul with Burnes, had taken part (11). The anti-Russian mood of the British establishment went well beyond rhetoric.

Craig Murray, Sikunder Burnes – Master of the Great Game (Birlinn, 2016)

Incredible. You mention Russian expansion into Persian Caucasus. I assume this was seen by Britain as a threat to their Empire, hence this decision to arm Islamists to counter challenges to their hegemony in the bud. And you’d think the Mujaheddin would be sick of this meddling by now. Your post illustrates so clearly how history gets rewritten, and how little we actually know about historical precedents.    

Edited December 29, 2023 by Paul Brancato

[Paul Brancato]

29 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Dreyfuss said, I think in one of his speeches, that he thought the only time you could have had peace in the Middle East was under Nasser.

And if you just apply some elementary logic, that would mean with JFK, since Foster Dulles before and LBJ after essentially had little use for Nasser, largely because of his pan Arab ambitions. What makes that notable is that Dreyfuss just presents the facts and has no attachment to JFK at all.  And I should add, he leaves some important stuff out.  But he does include the fact that Kennedy also commissioned a State Department study of the advantages and liabilities of bringing back Mossadegh in Iran also.

Kennedy's policy in the area was both creative and original.  And until the likes of Rakove and Muehlenbeck was pretty much hidden.

 

 

Jim - my post about Nazis in King Farouk’s government was not meant to derail your thread, but rather hopefully to deepen it. Alongside everything you mention about Nasser there is this history, and the successful operation to destroy Egypt’s nuclear ambitions by Mossad, using the very Nazi that set up Egypt’s post war program in the first place. In your reading did Nasser ever address any of this? 

[James DiEugenio]

I am familiar with the affair Paul. And I don't think its accurate to call the scientists Nazis.  

But I don't know about Nasser's comments on it.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[W. Niederhut]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

If the discussion went off topic, it is because that seemed to be the goal of some people on the thread.

My original essay was about JFK and his view of the problem both as a young man and as a president.

That topic is perfectly suitable for this forum.

Jim,

     Your thread and essay are entitled, "JFK and Gaza," and your essay did include references to the Neocons and 21st century U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East-- including Operation Timber Sycamore and the murder of Ghaddafi.

     And the issue of JFK's opinions about the Israeli-Palestine conflict is, obviously, relevant to the geopolitical history of the past 60 years, and to the current crisis in Gaza.  Highly relevant.

     So, it's a bit specious to accuse people of going "off topic" on this thread by discussing the history of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East, the Neocons, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

     Is it unacceptable for the forum to discuss the implications of JFK's thwarted policies for the 21st century -- the "betrayal of destiny?"

     In fact, Edward Curtin specifically mentioned JFK's peace initiatives in his recent "Epistle to RFK" about the Gaza disaster.

     The truth is that no U.S. President since JFK has really been willing to stand up to the CIA and the U.S. military-industrial complex, or to Israel. 

     Ariel Sharon bragged in 2000 that, "Israel controls America, and the Americans know it."  Benjamin Netanyahu has made similar comments in at least one taped interview posted on Professor Juan Cole's website.

    

[James DiEugenio]

William:

My reference to Timber Sycamore is not specious at all.

The reason I brought it up is because Assad is a secularist leader of a Middle East country, therefore the apt comparison to Nasser.

Its the same reason I mentioned the bombing of Libya.   The idea that, the way Kennedy felt about Africa, that he would resort to NATO bombing of an African country?

So both of those are in the framework of the topic of the essay. 

[Douglas Caddy]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Jim,

     Your thread and essay are entitled, "JFK and Gaza," and your essay did include references to the Neocons and 21st century U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East-- including Operation Timber Sycamore and the murder of Ghaddafi.

     And the issue of JFK's opinions about the Israeli-Palestine conflict is, obviously, relevant to the geopolitical history of the past 60 years, and to the current crisis in Gaza.  Highly relevant.

     So, it's a bit specious to accuse people of going "off topic" on this thread by discussing the history of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East, the Neocons, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

     Is it unacceptable for the forum to discuss the implications of JFK's thwarted policies for the 21st century -- the "betrayal of destiny?"

     In fact, Edward Curtin specifically mentioned JFK's peace initiatives in his recent "Epistle to RFK" about the Gaza disaster.

     The truth is that no U.S. President since JFK has really been willing to stand up to the CIA and the U.S. military-industrial complex, or to Israel. 

     Ariel Sharon bragged in 2000 that, "Israel controls America, and the Americans know it."  Benjamin Netanyahu has made similar comments in at least one taped interview posted on Professor Juan Cole's website.

    

 I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

 

a compilation of selected quotations - MIFTAH

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